My Faith In The Human Race...

[daclassicgamingmaster]

Here we have another topic which will probably be closed eventually. I'll post it anyway, as I would like to share it with everyone here.

A couple days ago, I came across and article that made pretty huge news over in the states. Apparantly, a 50 year old black male was waiting for the subway in New York with his 2 daughters, one 6 and one 8 years old. As he was waiting, a 19 year old white male film student seizured and fell onto the tracks as a train came roaring through the tunnel. The 50 year old man immediatly jumped onto the tracks to save the man. He realized that if he tried to pull him off and didnt succeed, they could both be killed. So in a split second decision, he rolled and pinned the kid down into a shallow drainage ditch as the train came rolling over them both, missing them by a mere 2 inches. link.

Now this story literally brought a tear to my eye. The fact that someone could be so selfless really says that there is indeed some good left in this world. Nevermind that the man who saved the teen was black and the teen was white. That really sends a great message to the kids who watched their father save the life of a man of the opposite race without hesitation.

This morning however, it was back to me reading things that make me fucking sick. There's this story now about a little girl who was born severely retarded and mentally damaged. In an effort to "make life easier" for the parents who have to take care of her for the rest of her days, the mother and father decide to intentially stunt her growth by removing her breast tissue and uterus at the age of 6. Yes, this girl had a hysterectomy at 6 years old. They're giving her extensive hormones as well to stunt her growth even further. They are literally mutilating her to make their lives easier. It makes me sick. link

It seems that every time I hear about some good in the world, there's something evil and sick that comes up shortly after. Am I alone in thinking we are doomed as a people?

Opinions please

 

[moz]

I am not in a position to pass comment as i have never had to make the decision the parents of the handicapped child have to.

im sure it wasnt an easy decision for them to take and i wish them the best of luck, they would of had councilling and advice from experts in the area and also discussed with similar situation parents.

 

[saehn]

This morning however, it was back to me reading things that make me fucking sick. There's this story now about a little girl who was born severely retarded and mentally damaged. In an effort to "make life easier" for the parents who have to take care of her for the rest of her days, the mother and father decide to intentially stunt her growth by removing her breast tissue and uterus at the age of 6. Yes, this girl had a hysterectomy at 6 years old. They're giving her extensive hormones as well to stunt her growth even further. They are literally mutilating her to make their lives easier. It makes me sick. link

I read about this yesterday, and I realized that some people might interpret this a certain way and have an intense emotional reaction. However, I don't think they're doing anything wrong to the girl. Sounds like they're making her life easier. Look at this, from the article:

"Ashley's smaller and lighter size makes it more possible to include her in the typical family life and activities that provide her with needed comfort, closeness, security and love: meal time, car trips, touch, snuggles, etc.," her parents wrote.

Also, Ashley's parents say keeping her small will reduce the risk of bedsores and other conditions that can afflict bedridden patients. In addition, they say preventing her from going through puberty means she won't experience the discomfort of periods or grow breasts that might develop breast cancer, which runs in the family.

"Even though caring for Ashley involves hard and continual work, she is a blessing and not a burden," her parents say. Still, they write, "Unless you are living the experience ... you have no clue what it is like to be the bedridden child or their caregivers."

The girl was going to be a mental infant for the rest of her life anyway. She can't "sit up, roll over, hold a toy or walk or talk". These surgeries just help to avoid future trauma for the girl. It's not as though they chopped off her arms or anything like that. They consulted an ethicist, had to get approval from a medical board, etc., etc. From reading the article, those parents don't seem like the abusive type.

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

Well I don't think that they're abusive at all. I just believe (and this is just my personal feeling) that they should have left the girl the way she was. I don't believe in "playing God". I think it's her karma to have been born this way, and for the parents to take such drastic action by fucking with her brain and body, i find it disgusting.

Just my personal opinion though. Everyone is entitled to their own.

 

[NoidZ]

Well, I totally agree with you on this. This is quite an unusual story, but I think the parents just want the best for their child. Although this is a little bit extreme..

 

[saehn]

Well I don't think that they're abusive at all. I just believe (and this is just my personal feeling) that they should have left the girl the way she was. I don't believe in "playing God". I think it's her karma to have been born this way, and for the parents to take such drastic action by fucking with her brain and body, i find it disgusting.

Just my personal opinion though. Everyone is entitled to their own.

Of course, I accept that it's your opinion. I understand that your concerns are out of sympathy for the girl. But I'm confused as to what disgusts you about it? Given those quotes, your knowledge of the girl's condition, and the benefits of modern surgery, what do you feel is negative about the hysterectomy and the bud removal?

By karma, do you mean that she somehow deserved her condition? In your understanding of the word, is karma some kind of supernatural/mystical force that determines how reality unfolds? I'm interested in your perspective.

Edit: typo

 

[Destructo2000]

I think that if there's a problem you can't fix in people, ie. mental retardation, you should just leave it be. Now, if they were actually able to fix it, then by all means, go ahead. But stunting her growth won't do any good. She's still mentally retarded. Here's another example:

One of my neighbors got some disease in his leg when he was 20ish. (Can't remember the disease, sorry) He had to get it amputated and now he has a bionic leg. Getting a replacement leg seems a logical choice. However, if they had decided to medically put him into a coma to "relieve his misery" that would only make things worse, and just be stupid.

Anyway, I just think that if you can fix it, fix it. If you can't, don't make things worse.

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

Well I don't think that they're abusive at all. I just believe (and this is just my personal feeling) that they should have left the girl the way she was. I don't believe in "playing God". I think it's her karma to have been born this way, and for the parents to take such drastic action by fucking with her brain and body, i find it disgusting.

Just my personal opinion though. Everyone is entitled to their own.

Of course, I accept that it's your opinion. I understand that your concerns are out of sympathy for the girl. But I'm confused as to what disgusts you about it? Given those quotes, your knowledge of the girl's condition, and the benefits of modern surgery, what do you feel is negative about the hysterectomy and the bud removal?

By karma, do you mean that she somehow deserved her condition? In your understanding of the word, is karma some kind of supernatural/mystical force that determines how reality unfolds? I'm interested in your perspective.

Edit: typo

By karma I mean she was put on this planet with a condition. God meant for her to be that way. It's something we cannot fathom. Kind of like autism. In the most extreme cases, many people with autism are quite normal. Some are idiot savants. The problem is, they can't relay the messages to us. They're trapped in their own head.

I feel that while it's quite terrible that this girl was born the way she was, there's a reason behind it. Obviously not on a superficial level, but it's something that us mere mortals cannot understand. I believe there's a reason for everything.

Now for these parents to decide that she should essentially be put into menopause at 6 years old, I find pretty fucked up. They need to let her be. Modern m.e.d.i.c.i.n.e (there's a filter on that word??) has gone past that of just helping people, at this point technology has allowed us to become God-like. And I don't approve of that. I share the same feeling about genetic engineering and cloning--but that's an entirely different discussion

I don't need to say im not alone here. There is a HUGE debate going on about this at this moment.

So to sum things up, I dont think it's their place to decide her future. They have, in my opinion, destroyed what little she may have had left. At this point, they have ensured that she will have extreme stunted growth, no uterus, and no breasts by the time she's older. Add that to the fact that she's mentally disabled, and I feel they have in effect made her life worse.

 

[nickspoon]

Playing God, as you put it, is a perfectly viable position to take. [ spam word ] at present, even in its most basic form, would have been deemed morally wrong and "sinful" a couple of hundred years ago.

On a related note, there is a plan to ban human-animal hybrid embryos in Britain entirely, destroying one of the last hopes of those suffering from degenerative neurological conditions. This movement was mainly pushed by religious types, for obvious reasons. What I don't get is how playing God is supposedly evil, yet doing so would save the lives of many. Do religious people seriously believe we will unleash some kind of nasty demon thing on ourselves by fiddling with "blessed" protein chains?

On this - I don't know. I'm unsure as to whether or not being unable to develop fully would be beneficial or hurtful. And I'm fairly certain the parents had very little knowledge of this either. But if they felt this was the right choice, and gave it a lot of thought, I can't deem it evil. The intentions, I assume, were for it to benefit her. As such, I can't see how this contrasts the seizure example (that story did show me that there are still kind, caring people in the world though, and I must say my faith in humanity has been increased slightly - and, dare I say it, was truly heartwarming) in what kind of people there are. These parents cared enough about their daughter's overall health to make a risky unnatural decision such as this. I'm fairly sure that there would be very little gain to be had from stunting the growth of a 6-year-old (at a substantial expense, I would assume).

 

[moz]

DCGM:whats your opinion on the scientists that are going to try and make a gay sheep straight?

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

Playing God, as you put it, is a perfectly viable position to take. [ spam word ] at present, even in its most basic form, would have been deemed morally wrong and "sinful" a couple of hundred years ago.

On a related note, there is a plan to ban human-animal hybrid embryos in Britain entirely, destroying one of the last hopes of those suffering from degenerative neurological conditions. This movement was mainly pushed by religious types, for obvious reasons. What I don't get is how playing God is supposedly evil, yet doing so would save the lives of many. Do religious people seriously believe we will unleash some kind of nasty demon thing on ourselves by fiddling with "blessed" protein chains?

On this - I don't know. I'm unsure as to whether or not being unable to develop fully would be beneficial or hurtful. And I'm fairly certain the parents had very little knowledge of this either. But if they felt this was the right choice, and gave it a lot of thought, I can't deem it evil. The intentions, I assume, were for it to benefit her. As such, I can't see how this contrasts the seizure example (that story did show me that there are still kind, caring people in the world though, and I must say my faith in humanity has been increased slightly - and, dare I say it, was truly heartwarming) in what kind of people there are. These parents cared enough about their daughter's overall health to make a risky unnatural decision such as this. I'm fairly sure that there would be very little gain to be had from stunting the growth of a 6-year-old (at a substantial expense, I would assume).

Cloning and stem-cell stuff is pretty touchy. On one end, I agree that stem cells can be very beneficial in helping people who are disabled and dying. On the other end, people want to take it too far and begin cloning people. Unfortunately there's no happy middle. So with advancements that allow people to recover from serious disabilities, there also comes the sickos who will take it too far.

The stories dont connect. I was just saying that everytime I hear of someone loving, I hear about something weird or fucked up. That's all.

Moz: I think it's pretty fucking sick

 

[DaveC]

By karma I mean she was put on this planet with a condition. God meant for her to be that way. It's something we cannot fathom. Kind of like autism. In the most extreme cases, many people with autism are quite normal. Some are idiot savants. The problem is, they can't relay the messages to us. They're trapped in their own head.

I feel that while it's quite terrible that this girl was born the way she was, there's a reason behind it. Obviously not on a superficial level, but it's something that us mere mortals cannot understand. I believe there's a reason for everything.

God meant her to be that way? How do you know? How do you know that there even IS a God? If you get a appendicitis to you have it removed or do you say "God wanted me to have it, there is a reason behind it". Then do you sit and wait for your appendix to explode and kill you? I doubt it, you would get medical help, God or not.

There is no reason behind her problem other than something went wrong when cells were dividing, protiens were being made etc. Sometimes things just happen there is no "grand plan".

If science can make things better for them then it is not a bad thing. After all sitting around waiting for "God" to help out is an excercise in futility. "He" is conviently MIA just when you need him.

 

[Ganepark32]

I heard this the thing about the girl a few nights ago on the news and it just disturbed me. If i was a parent, no matter wat was wrong with my child i would no way want to stunt their growth just because they are mentally unfit and will be the same mental age through out life. I find it disgusting that things like this can happen. Its people like that that make decisions like that that shouldnt be allowed kids. There are plenty of people out there who cant have kids and yet people who can are willing to stunt a child's growth just because of a genetic default that could have been picked up before pregnancy or before birth.

hows it going to work with her birthdays then? Happy 6.1 dear. Yes ur 6.1 because we stunted ur growth so u'll never reach 7.

I find it appauling that things like this can happen. The UK is certainly worst for these kind of things as just last year a court ruling meant a child was to be taken off of a life support machine although see wasn't close to death and could react to certain experiences.

 

[saehn]

By karma I mean she was put on this planet with a condition. God meant for her to be that way. It's something we cannot fathom. Kind of like autism. In the most extreme cases, many people with autism are quite normal. Some are idiot savants. The problem is, they can't relay the messages to us. They're trapped in their own head.

I feel that while it's quite terrible that this girl was born the way she was, there's a reason behind it. Obviously not on a superficial level, but it's something that us mere mortals cannot understand. I believe there's a reason for everything.

Ah, your perspective is religious in nature. Not much point in us debating it, then. Faith-derived viewpoints are ultimately based in an irrational assumption (i.e., the supernatural exists), so there's no point in having a logical debate regarding these issues. No offense, thanks for explaining your perspective.

So to sum things up, I dont think it's their place to decide her future. They have, in my opinion, destroyed what little she may have had left. At this point, they have ensured that she will have extreme stunted growth, no uterus, and no breasts by the time she's older. Add that to the fact that she's mentally disabled, and I feel they have in effect made her life worse.

But stunted growth, no uterus, and no breasts wouldn't ever matter to someone with a mental age of three. In fact, the article lists all the benefits of those three changes. Religious viewpoints aside, I'm still trying to figure out why you think those things are negative.

 

[DaveC]

quote name='daclassicgamingmaster' post='492143' date='Jan 5 2007, 01:15 PM']But stunted growth, no uterus, and no breasts wouldn't ever matter to someone with a mental age of three. In fact, the article lists all the benefits of those three changes. Religious viewpoints aside, I'm still trying to figure out why you think those things are negative.

I have found that agruing using logic with the religeous is like explaining quantum mechanics to a slug, they just will never get it.

 

[Mark1970]

..........This morning however, it was back to me reading things that make me fucking sick. There's this story now about a little girl who was born severely retarded and mentally damaged. In an effort to "make life easier" for the parents who have to take care of her for the rest of her days, the mother and father decide to intentially stunt her growth by removing her breast tissue and uterus at the age of 6. Yes, this girl had a hysterectomy at 6 years old. They're giving her extensive hormones as well to stunt her growth even further. They are literally mutilating her to make their lives easier. It makes me sick. link

I myself am a medical doctor and I don't know what to think of this....Is it in the best interest of the girl? From DaClassicGamingmaster's post you could easily get the perception that the parent's interests were taken into account above the girl's. But I don't think this is the case.

Any person that is largely immobile runs a risk of getting bedsores, yes even a small kid like the girl if she were not to grow a single inch. The bigger and larger a person is the higher the risk becomes of getting those bedsores. More weight pressing down on poorly circulated skin and subcutaneous tissues. But even with a smaller size this child still has huge risks of getting all sorts of other ailments and problems. But it is a fact that you can take better care of a small baby than a 6'8" baby. And this girl is functioning at a baby-level. So this solution is a very practical one. But is it an ethical one?

But ethically this is fodder for big discussions as the effects of the modifications done to the girl might not necessarily be the effects the doctor's intended. What they're more or less doing is bring this girl into puberty early so the growth centers in the bones will fuse prematurely thus preventing further growth in stature. This also does have negative side effects. . But as this girl matures she might still grow 'non-vertically' because of her immobility. Anyways, those parent's have a huge task ahead of them taking care of this child. I am glad not to be in their shoes.

 

[declaration]

Sorry to break it you you DCGM, but there is no such thing as god or karma.

And even If god does exist, he is a fuckwit for allowing a girl to be born in such a way. I would prefer a doctor to play as god rather than a god who kills people.

Also, I hope you won't mind doctors refusing to treat you if you get ill. We wouldn't want them "playing god" after all, would we?

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

See, these threads turn into attacks on the poster. I just wanted opinions on the matter, not opinions on what you all think of me and MY viewpoint.

Im not "religious" by the way. Im spiritual. There's a difference.

@ DaveC: I didnt think it would be necessary to put "imo" after everything I said. But I guess it is. I know there's a God because I believe there's one. IMO. Im glad you have your own beliefs.

IMO this was fucked up. IMO I think it wasn't right. I feel this way just because it's my opinion. Not everything needs to be explained in black and white and supported with facts. Ended.

So now, shall we continue with opinions on the matter? Or stay with what you all think of things that I have said many times are my opinion?

@ declaration: haha you're fucking intelligent. "there is no god because I said so". gtfo with your irrational argumentative skills

 

[nickspoon]

Cloning and stem-cell stuff is pretty touchy. On one end, I agree that stem cells can be very beneficial in helping people who are disabled and dying. On the other end, people want to take it too far and begin cloning people. Unfortunately there's no happy middle. So with advancements that allow people to recover from serious disabilities, there also comes the sickos who will take it too far.

I don't think cloning humans is taking it too far at all. If we can, I can't see a reason why we shouldn't. Obviously having exact clones running around, talking to each other would be a bit on the difficult side, and I'd say a darkish-grey area... but even so, I can't see anything fundamentally wrong with cloning a human being. Then again, I can't really see any benefit either.

Of course, should you wish to have a cloned child just so they'd look exactly like a famous person, family member or even yourself... that's quite sickening. It restricts the feeling of uniqueness and individuality present in everyone.

 

[Shikaku]

If there is a God and he wants us to be happy and go to heaven, then why are there diseases/*insert any number of bad things here*?