My Faith In The Human Race...

[TelcoLou]

wonder if tels cat is gay?, if the scientists are successful with the sheep.............

Well, Jake (the bigger of the two) tried to hump his brother, Elwood when they were kittens, as he went into puberty sooner I guess .. (his brother smacked him for his efforts :lol

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

Time to report the thread, Telco?

Nah :lol: Let's see how far things will go ...

Euthanasia ... well, why not? I would put down my cats (and will when the time comes) if their quality of life deteriorated badly enough ... and this is saying a lot; I hate nearly all humans, and love our kitties like they were our children.

On this subject, we had them neutered, for their own good as well as ours, yet the idea of de-clawing is inhumane and cruel to us.

Hmmm ....

K, well if I cant beat it, join it

misc. discussion going on now. All in!

I agree 100% with telco. Same idea about cats. I think controlling the pet population by spaying, etc is good. It breaks my heart to see strays . I believe however that cats should keep their claws. I dont agree with declawing.

I also am all for euthanasia. My aunt was against it completely her whole life. She fought to abolish it everywhere...until she got a rare form of breast cancer where the breast tissue literally burns up. Her chest was beat red and she was suffering. I'll bet any amount of money that she wanted to die
So I think it should be legal everywhere. It's our choice to decide if we want to be here or not imo.

@ Lubidog: You said what I was thinking. Declaration came off as extremely hostile and was pushing his belief on me. Thus why his arguement is retaded

 

[fawny]

Euthanasia ... well, why not?

Euthanasia ! Where the heck did that come from ? I thought the gist of this thread was wether people born disabled should be left as they are ( as it is part of some god's big plan (that god is such a shit) ) or wether science and medical knowledge should be allowed to improve the lives of those involved.

The ethical question is was it right to take steps to prevent her reaching puberty.

If this girl is permenantly going to have a mental age of three, is her life not going to be better if she does not have to deal with an adult body ? How would a three year old handle menstruation or sexual urges ?

Why does M e d i c i n e get replaced with [ spam word ] ??

@ Lubidog
As you point out, there is evidence of activity by Dec - but there is no evidence of activity of any gods. Also you cannot argue that because people have been ignorant for thousands of years and attributed things they could not explain to gods somehow gives any credance to the existence of divine beings. Mankind has believed all sorts of ludicrous crap that can now be more rationally explained. It was not that long ago we were burning witches and that masturbation was believed to be physically and mentally detrimental.

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

or wether science and medical knowledge should be allowed to improve the lives of those involved.

Oh! Because you obviously know this for sure! You don't know the long term effects of anything they are doing-- you're just talking out of your ass like you seem to have a knack to do!

If science can improve her life, fine. I dont agree with taking out her insides and feeding her hormones to stunt her growth. I think it's disgusting.

 

[TelcoLou]

Euthanasia ... well, why not?

Euthanasia ! Where the heck did that come from ? I thought the gist of this thread was wether people born disabled should be left as they are ( as it is part of some god's big plan (that god is such a shit) ) or wether science and medical knowledge should be allowed to improve the lives of those involved.

The ethical question is was it right to take steps to prevent her reaching puberty.

If this girl is permenantly going to have a mental age of three, is her life not going to be better if she does not have to deal with an adult body ? How would a three year old handle menstruation or sexual urges ?

I'd put her down, like I would my kitties. What kind of quility of life would she have with or without the surgery?

... and before you say it, I'm fully aware of how much of an asshole/bastard I am, and am fully comfortable with it

 

[lubidog]

Euthanasia ... well, why not?

Euthanasia ! Where the heck did that come from ? I thought the gist of this thread was wether people born disabled should be left as they are ( as it is part of some god's big plan (that god is such a shit) ) or wether science and medical knowledge should be allowed to improve the lives of those involved.

The ethical question is was it right to take steps to prevent her reaching puberty.

If this girl is permenantly going to have a mental age of three, is her life not going to be better if she does not have to deal with an adult body ? How would a three year old handle menstruation or sexual urges ?

Why does M e d i c i n e get replaced with [ spam word ] ??

@ Lubidog
As you point out, there is evidence of activity by Dec - but there is no evidence of activity of any gods. Also you cannot argue that because people have been ignorant for thousands of years and attributed things they could not explain to gods somehow gives any credance to the existence of divine beings. Mankind has believed all sorts of ludicrous crap that can now be more rationally explained. It was not that long ago we were burning witches and that masturbation was believed to be physically and mentally detrimental.

No evidence of God? Are you mad? There is evidence, just none of it proved. But you deny the evidence is there? Crazy. There is more documention of so called 'Acts of God' than..well than anything. You just can't 'prove' it. But the simple fact that we 'are' that could be called evidence.

And what has the stupidity of man anything to do with a belief in a Deity?

But I say again, someone choosing to believe in a God, is just as valid as someone choosing not be believe. You both believe.


I get smarter!

 

[Nova]

What happens when her parents die?

What's that got to do with Tel's Cats?

Goddamn it, It has everything to do with it!

 

[saehn]

No evidence of God? Are you mad? There is evidence, just none of it proved. But you deny the evidence is there? Crazy. There is more documention of so called 'Acts of God' than..well than anything. You just can't 'prove' it. But the simple fact that we 'are' that could be called evidence.

There isn't any reliable evidence that I've ever heard of. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Proof? Absolute proof only exists in mathematics. Non sequitur: it does not follow that "if humans exist, then god(s) exist".

And what has the stupidity of man anything to do with a belief in a Deity?

Some would say that that relationship is causal. :rolleyes:

But I say again, someone choosing to believe in a God, is just as valid as someone choosing not be believe. You both believe.

Well, that's not true. Saying that a lack of a belief is a belief is like saying that baldness is a hair color.

 

[iignotus]

Euthanasia ... well, why not?

Euthanasia ! Where the heck did that come from ? I thought the gist of this thread was wether people born disabled should be left as they are ( as it is part of some god's big plan (that god is such a shit) ) or wether science and medical knowledge should be allowed to improve the lives of those involved.

The ethical question is was it right to take steps to prevent her reaching puberty.

If this girl is permenantly going to have a mental age of three, is her life not going to be better if she does not have to deal with an adult body ? How would a three year old handle menstruation or sexual urges ?

I'd put her down, like I would my kitties. What kind of quility of life would she have with or without the surgery?

... and before you say it, I'm fully aware of how much of an asshole/bastard I am, and am fully comfortable with it

I actually agree with you prejudicially, but I don't have deep personal, intimate experience with anyone greatly mentally disabled (like family members), so I can't really commit myself to that opinion. It is how I've felt for a long time, though.

 

[DaveC]

No evidence of God? Are you mad? There is evidence, just none of it proved. But you deny the evidence is there? Crazy. There is more documention of so called 'Acts of God' than..well than anything. You just can't 'prove' it. But the simple fact that we 'are' that could be called evidence.

And what has the stupidity of man anything to do with a belief in a Deity?

But I say again, someone choosing to believe in a God, is just as valid as someone choosing not be believe. You both believe.


I get smarter!

There is no evidence whatsoever in any kind of mystical magic sky man. There is alot of talk not much else. There is ALOT *against* it though. Just because you "believe" in something doesn't make it real. You need verifyable peer reviewed hard evidence. Alot of other dumb people parroting back the same religeous nonsence doesn't make it real either. I could say millions of kids believe in the "easter bunny" too so therefore it is real, again following your logic. Reality isn't a popular vote. The more people you get on your side doesn't make the belief more real, you still need facts and evidence.

There is no point in any kind of scientific research and experimentation where the scientist finds a phenomena that can only be explained by the existance of some kind of supernatural being. Never.

The facts are evolution happened and is continuing to happen. Life on earth is goes back a billion or so years and that is PROVEN with hard tangible evidence. Ever heard of a "fossil"? How about rock strata? maybe carbon dating? or Pangea maybe?. You can also see the progression and evolution through the earths history as plain as the nose on your face. You can also see the progression of humans from the most primitive monkey-like animals to present. That is more hard evidence. You can see the actual bones and the actual evolution of features. At no point in that progression is there any evidence of any magic happening. Sorry but that is just the sobering reality of it.

Just because you can't disprove something 100% also doesn't make it real. I could say the flying spaghetti monster or leprachauns are real because I believe it. You can't prove me wrong so therefore they are real by your logic. I say that the spaghetti monster made us. We 'are' here so then it must be true the FSM does exist! Se how flawed that "logic" is :rolleyes:

You seem to confuse belief=reality.

You get dumber!

 

[TelcoLou]

Euthanasia ... well, why not?

Euthanasia ! Where the heck did that come from ? I thought the gist of this thread was wether people born disabled should be left as they are ( as it is part of some god's big plan (that god is such a shit) ) or wether science and medical knowledge should be allowed to improve the lives of those involved.

The ethical question is was it right to take steps to prevent her reaching puberty.

If this girl is permenantly going to have a mental age of three, is her life not going to be better if she does not have to deal with an adult body ? How would a three year old handle menstruation or sexual urges ?

I'd put her down, like I would my kitties. What kind of quility of life would she have with or without the surgery?

... and before you say it, I'm fully aware of how much of an asshole/bastard I am, and am fully comfortable with it

I actually agree with you prejudicially, but I don't have deep personal, intimate experience with anyone greatly mentally disabled (like family members), so I can't really commit myself to that opinion. It is how I've felt for a long time, though.

Thanks

A little more insight:

One of my cats has pretty advanced diabetes, requiring 5 units of insulin injected twice a day ... the other guy had severe urinary tract infections, causing the need for a penile amputation and now, many years later, has developed a thyroid condition, requiring him to take a pill twice a day (which I need to forceably cram down his throat).

I do these things without any effort (it did take a couple of years to get used to the routine though) and only continue to do so because their quality of life is still very good ... my little guy is very affectionate and kitten-like, and his brother is just as sweet and loveable.

The day their health starts to decline to the point where everyday is painful for them, it's into the oven they go (or gas chamber, electric chair, or whatever execution device the vets use these days...)

I wonder just how much of this girl's mental faculties are functioning? Does she feel, think, emote? Is she aware of her surroundings?

 

[fawny]

No evidence of God? Are you mad? There is evidence, just none of it proved. But you deny the evidence is there? Crazy. There is more documention of so called 'Acts of God' than..well than anything. You just can't 'prove' it. But the simple fact that we 'are' that could be called evidence.

Evidence is factual. What you are referring to is hearsay and fairy tales. There is no proof of god which is why religions harp on about faith all the time. If you could prove god's existence you would not need faith. The extremely complex fact that we 'are' is explained by evolution and natural selection.

And what has the stupidity of man anything to do with a belief in a Deity?

You implied that thousands of years of belief in a god was somehow evidence that there is such a thing. I was pointing out that a lot of stupid beliefs have been dismissed by modern man. The only reason the god myth will not go away is that it has no basis in reality and thus cannot be proved either way. We can not prove that Dec's invisible, massless table does not exist but any reasonable person is seriously going to doubt it. Why should an invisible, all pervading intelligence get any more credence ?

But I say again, someone choosing to believe in a God, is just as valid as someone choosing not be believe. You both believe.

To believe something you have to make that effort called 'having faith'. Not believing in something requires no effort at all. They are not the same. If I believed there was an invisible pixie sitting on my desk I would have to remember it was there and take care not to spill my coffee on it. Since I lack the faith to maintain that illusion it does not ever cross my mind.

 

[declaration]

lubidog- you compare the existence of god to the existence of me.... I have been compared to a god before but that's a different story!

seriously though, my posts on this message board are more evidence to the existence of me than there is evidence of the existence of a god. Also, if you really wanted to, I am sure you could track me down and prove I exist. Try doing that with god.

Any arguments which doubt the existence of all things are just worthless and a waste of all our time. Some things (like tables and chairs) do exist, others (like Mario or 'God') just exist in stories.

And DCGM- you were the one being hostile by making judgments on medical decisions based upon your own illogical belief in a deity.

 

[DaveC]

I have been compared to a god before but that's a different story!

You have? Have you programmed a full speed emulator

 

[fawny]

I wonder just how much of this girl's mental faculties are functioning? Does she feel, think, emote? Is she aware of her surroundings?

Her condition has left her in an infant state, unable to sit up, roll over, hold a toy or walk or talk. Her parents say she will never get better. She is alert, startles easily, and smiles, but does not maintain eye contact, according to her parents, who call the brown-haired little girl their "pillow angel."

That sounds pretty severe and Telco's solution seems almost reasonable when you consider what her quality of life must be. I know I could not have her put down if she was mine however futile her existence may seem. I doubt she will outlive her parents, unless they have some kind of exercise routine for her - but she can't even roll over. So sad.

Damn you, Invisible Pixie. How can you let this happen ?

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

And DCGM- you were the one being hostile by making judgments on medical decisions based upon your own illogical belief in a deity.

hostile? I don't think that's the correct term. Who the hell are you to come on and say that im essentially a moron and there is no God? It's metaphysical, ie. cannot be proven. For someone to tell another person that something that cannot even be proven is wrong, that's just fucking idiotic. Do I say "hey declaration, you dont know what you're talking about you silly boy, there is indeed a god!"? No. Everyone is entitled to their own belief system.

 

[OMars]

I for one am on dcgm's side. I was raised up and told that children such as this are a test for the parents, even a blessing from God. They have already failed that test by "cheating" their way out of it. I absolutely think it is sick that somebody would do this. The handicapped are humans, too. I don't care if you're atheist or religious, they are still human beings.

The reason I believe in God, and Islam in general is that there are a lot of scientifically valid verses in the Holy Koran. I can give links on this if people want. :unsure: I think it is a great way of life...

 

[Loubear]

quote name='daclassicgamingmaster' post='492143' date='Jan 5 2007, 01:15 PM']But stunted growth, no uterus, and no breasts wouldn't ever matter to someone with a mental age of three. In fact, the article lists all the benefits of those three changes. Religious viewpoints aside, I'm still trying to figure out why you think those things are negative.

I have found that agruing using logic with the religeous is like explaining quantum mechanics to a slug, they just will never get it.

Just like when the slug begins to seep out a mucus trail, does the physicist know what it's doing? (Not like he'd want to either...)

Dear god, for once, I agree with dcgm. What have I become?! Now on the subject of god...

Yeah, there's no definite scientific experiment to prove his existence. And also...no way to prove heaven, hell, damnation, and so forth. Oh yeah, but see god is something believers don't know as well. We don't happen to know that he's a flying pixie, where he is, or what his name is. Hell, in most pictures of him, his face is covered because we, simply put, don't really know much about him. He (or she or maybe even without a gender) is just there. What we do know is that god is the highest being, the one deity that created everything. Now imagine him as just that, the creator, nothing about six arms, long white robes and a beard, or any specific description. Is this more plausible then a fairy flying over your coffee or something of the sort? That he is just...the being that made everything. Now of course, then again, I can't prove this, so it must be wrong, and I get your logic. No evidence=totally and completely wrong...

 

[sam fisher]

What happens when her parents die?

Or worse ... what if they discover a cure for her original condition in the next few years? :huh:

Regrow her brain with stem cells? There is no "cure", except to replace her brain with a correct one, if they had identified th eproblem with the foetus before brain tissue generation has occured and they have the genetic manipulation ability to resequence the correct amino acid complex's, or polypeptides, in the DNA of her cells, then they could cure her

 

[Vimacs]

the flying spaghetti monster is the only god in existence!

closed...