More Pandora 2 crap (MicroSD Split)

[McLovin]

yeah, function follows form is sooo not this community

 

[Askarus]

ICP2 size is definitly to smal for a Pandora.


As people said before, X and Y are fine. If something needs to be smaler, then it's z

 

[Exophase]

It really feels like they made the ICP2 as tight as they could over the controls/keypad then said, "OK, so that's it - design a Pandora to fit the ICP2's minimized footprint." It feels like they're trying to shove 10lbs of stuff into a 5lb bag - and having to leave some stuff out or compromised as a result. My answer is to get a bigger bag - make the Pandora 2 have a broader footprint than the ICP by whatever is needed to fit the functionality that needs to be there.

Please consider this option - make the P2 on a wider or deeper (or a bit of both) footprint than the ICP2 so that there is board space available to do it with the right components.

I think a lot of us aren't exactly enthusiastic about an iCP2-sized Pandora 2. In case anyone missed it, this is almost exactly the size of the GP2X Wiz (in fact, it's slightly smaller! iCP2 is 117x61 while Wiz is 121x61; I left out height as I don't think it's that pertinent to Pandora 2). Sure many are fine with and even prefer something a bit smaller, as MWeston put it, but this is a lot smaller.


I have tiny hands and Wiz is past my comfort level for size. Now, this isn't a totally fair comparison because it has to fit (pretty tiny) controls next to a (pretty tiny) screen, while Pandora can use the entire width on controls, and iCP2 looks to be using the same dpad and buttons from Pandora 1. So that won't suffer, so long as the spacing from the edges is sufficient. If you want another comparison point, Wiz is almost exactly the same width as an NES controller (I'm not looking at any published measurements, I just tried putting them side by side). I don't have outright problems using an NES controller for hours, although I'd definitely prefer something more rounded. But at least it's a lot more usable than a Wiz. So I don't want to jump to claims that iCP2 size will be uncomfortable. My question then isn't really if this size can be ergonomic enough, but what exactly is driving such a small size? How many people are going to demand this size over something a little larger like a 3DS; is this driven by practical considerations, researched market demand, or just a desire to make it comparable in size to smaller smartphones?

 

[Askarus]

Right.


Don't sacrifice important stuff only to reduce the size.


It's the wrong way.


First look what's needed, then look how smal it can be.


Please no fixed size and please not 117x61. We want a big screen. That's verry important for a mini computer, not to make it a small as possible.


I want to work with it.

 

[Exophase]

Craig has said many times he's interested in at least the possibility of a 5" screen so surely he wouldn't have pushed a design that locked out such a screen size. Craig has also said before that it'd be great if the top lid was just "one big screen", and has shown intention to put the speakers on the bottom (which will further take away board space, mind you)


You'll note that the iCP2 dimensions, in addition to being almost the same as the Wiz dimensions, are also almost the same as the dimensions for a 5" 16:9 LCD:110.69x62x26mm. iCP2 is a little wider, but vertically it's actually slightly smaller than this. Maybe the numbers are close enough to fudge and OPT thinks they can fit in an LCD with basically no bezel vertically, I don't know. I've yet to see a phone that has no bezel whatsoever.

 

[thatgui]

I don't have outright problems using an NES controller for hours, although I'd definitely prefer something more rounded. But at least it's a lot more usable than a Wiz. So I don't want to jump to claims that iCP2 size will be uncomfortable.

Could get uncomfortable if you take in shoulder buttons for consideration. Having average size hands I would not want the P2 to be smaller then P1 in that regard

 

[Askarus]

Shouldn't we keep Pandora's size and put in the biggest scerrn that fits in.


5,5" would be great here and give much room on the board.


I don't see any reason hwy to make it as small as possible no matter what it costs.

Could get uncomfortable if you take in shoulder buttons for consideration. Having average size hands I would not want the P2 to be smaller then P1 in that regard

Right.


Remember it's a it's a tiny computer. Slightly bigger buttons would also be good. I don't want them to be much smaller than Pandora's keys.


ICP is mainly a controller with a keyboard but Pandora is a PC. Keys should also be bigger than on ICP 2.

 

[Binky]

Thinner is the emphasis - the Z dimension. We're FINE on the X and Y dimension with the existing Pandora - those aren't a problem. It's the 28mm thickness that makes it look and feel like a construction brick. If the footprint stayed the same and we knocked even 5mm off of the overall closed thickness - that would be awesome.

Poll on what the community would like (try to get an order of preference)


Poll on the maximum acceptable / ideal size from the community (x, y, z all separate!)


Work out how to fit as many useful features in as possible into he largest acceptable size


if we take 117x61 and boost it to 140 x 61 - thats the same width as the P1 and makes room for two more full SD cards


(2cm wider x 6cm deep = 12cm^2, an SD card is around 6cm^2)

You'll note that the iCP2 dimensions, in addition to being almost the same as the Wiz dimensions, are also almost the same as the dimensions for a 5" 16:9 LCD:110.69x62x26mm. iCP2 is a little wider, but vertically it's actually slightly smaller than this. Maybe the numbers are close enough to fudge and OPT thinks they can fit in an LCD with basically no bezel vertically, I don't know. I've yet to see a phone that has no bezel whatsoever.

The iCP will have to be deeper to fit the hinge anyway, maybe thats where the vertical hight comes from..?

5,5" would be great here and give much room on the board. I don't see any reason hwy to make it as small as possible no matter what it costs.

agree.


I have no requirements for the P2 to be narrower and shallower than the P1, while extensive, versatile hardware is a prime considereation

 

[Askarus]

agree. I have no requirements for the P2 to be narrower and shallower than the P1, while extensive, versatile hardware is a prime considereation

Great to see supporters here.

Poll on what the community would like (try to get an order of preference) Poll on the maximum acceptable / ideal size from the community (x, y, z all separate!)

I think it'd be usefull to ahve a poll about size.


If lots of people here don't mind a bigger unit I don't see any reason why not to get a bigger screen and more possible hardware inside.


That's a verry important step that should be done before designing and finalizing anything.

 

[Binky]

Here's a thought:


OP team obviously believe there is room for (almost) everything required in a 117x61(+) case


On my P1, I find some controls a little too close to my hands (fn, B, X, in particular)


If the P2 used the same aluminium faceplate as the iCP2, but with 1cm plastic wings either, side, there would be and extra 24cm^2 of PCB space (no keys on the top) which is enough for twin fullSDXC, and some other cool stuff, while moving the controls inward towards (my) natural holding positions (A and right on the P1). The pocketability would not be affected, it would be no bigger than the P1, but the battery could be bigger.


Whats to lose?

 

[Exophase]

Poll on what the community would like (try to get an order of preference)
Poll on the maximum acceptable / ideal size from the community (x, y, z all separate!)


Work out how to fit as many useful features in as possible into he largest acceptable size


if we take 117x61 and boost it to 140 x 61 - thats the same width as the P1 and makes room for two more full SD cards


(2cm wider x 6cm deep = 12cm^2, an SD card is around 6cm^2)

Frankly - and I say this as someone having started a few polls like this - I'd prefer first seeing some actual indication that OPT actually cares about the results of these polls.

The iCP will have to be deeper to fit the hinge anyway, maybe thats where the vertical hight comes from..?

I thought about this, but it seems like any space the hinge takes up for the base would also take up for the display part, unless they're referring to adding hinge space that isn't taken up by actual hinge.

 

[Askarus]

Here's a thought:


OP team obviously believe there is room for (almost) everything required in a 117x61(+) case


On my P1, I find some controls a little too close to my hands (fn, B, X, in particular)


If the P2 used the same aluminium faceplate as the iCP2, but with 1cm plastic wings either, side, there would be and extra 24cm^2 of PCB space (no keys on the top) which is enough for twin fullSDXC, and some other cool stuff, while moving the controls inward towards (my) natural holding positions (A and right on the P1). The pocketability would not be affected, it would be no bigger than the P1, but the battery could be bigger.


Whats to lose?

Great idea.


You're the man .

Frankly - and I say this as someone having started a few polls like this - I'd prefer first seeing some actual indication that OPT actually cares about the results of these polls.

That's also my feeling. They don't really care about those polls.


But they shoud. Else everything "community project" related would be more or less a lie.


We shouldn't have to open these polls. OPT should. That's what a community project is.

 

[konqithedragon]

That's also my feeling. They don't really care about those polls.


But they shoud. Else everything "community project" related would be more or less a lie.


We shouldn't have to open these polls. OPT should. That's what a community project is.

I agree

 

[Exophase]

I think people may have to come to terms with the fact that no one ever said Pandora 2 was going to be a community project. I actually think even the claims of Pandora 1 being community designed are exaggerated - some elements were influenced by the community, like the analog sticks and the volume wheel. But it seems like most of it was following through on what they wanted all along.


I get the feeling that for Pandora 2 they are trying to tap into a different market. Maybe characterized by all the "that's big and ugly" posts on places like Engadget. Certainly Craig's comments about smartphones seems to show a desire to sell based on similar merits. Maybe they think that when polls show large percentages saying they won't buy the Pandora 2 with the proposed changes that they don't actually represent all of this community (the old claim that the polls are skewed because only a passionate minority wants to vote). Maybe they think they're just bluffing and will begrudgingly buy the Pandora 2 regardless because it'll still offer what nothing else does. Or maybe they really don't care, because they think in the end they'll attract more new sales than the old sales they'll lose.


Personally, I don't think they'll do well chasing more mainstream sensibilities, because they don't have the brand appeal, industrial design, or competitive price to make it work - and the closer they get to mainstream stuff the more they lose their niche status that helped form the original community. But let's say that they really can sell more this way. It'd still be kind of lame to not give back to the people who supported Pandora thus far, with a lot of patience and generosity. But that's just from my perspective. From Craig's perspective of having driven a bunch of headache and debt with Pandora 1, and all the criticism he's personally received, he might feel more compelled to break away from the community instead.


When I think about it, I don't know if it's really about this and not just Craig et al doing the handheld they personally want the most, it might not be about market at all.

 

[EvilDragon]

I sure don't care about mainstream.


I rather want to have a unique device than something that sells like hell.


I've always appreciated small projects more than mainstream crap, that's how I came into the community (with the GP32). I supported and still support these small projects (GP2X, Caanoo, WIZ, Everdrives, RetroDE 2 and now the GCW Zero) and will continue to do so in the future.


You won't find anything mainstream in my shop (okay, except for SD Cards )) - neverever, because I'm not interested in that.

 

[Saber]

Here's a thought:


OP team obviously believe there is room for (almost) everything required in a 117x61(+) case


On my P1, I find some controls a little too close to my hands (fn, B, X, in particular)


If the P2 used the same aluminium faceplate as the iCP2, but with 1cm plastic wings either, side, there would be and extra 24cm^2 of PCB space (no keys on the top) which is enough for twin fullSDXC, and some other cool stuff, while moving the controls inward towards (my) natural holding positions (A and right on the P1). The pocketability would not be affected, it would be no bigger than the P1, but the battery could be bigger.


Whats to lose?

I didn't like the lack of pocketability with the Pandora. It's small but at the same time not that small. This is good for the hands but not so much for the pockets. I actually wouldn't mind if it's offspring was a little more petite.

Frankly - and I say this as someone having started a few polls like this - I'd prefer first seeing some actual indication that OPT actually cares about the results of these polls.

That's also my feeling. They don't really care about those polls.


But they shoud. Else everything "community project" related would be more or less a lie.


We shouldn't have to open these polls. OPT should. That's what a community project is.

I think it's more of a community input scenario than a community project. I hold no delusions that I have any real stake in Openpandora at the end of the day. I'm just happy I get to enjoy their products and read what they'll throw our way next.

 

[Saber]

I sure don't care about mainstream.


I rather want to have a unique device than something that sells like hell.


I've always appreciated small projects more than mainstream crap, that's how I came into the community (with the GP32). I supported and still support these small projects (GP2X, Caanoo, WIZ, Everdrives, RetroDE 2 and now the GCW Zero) and will continue to do so in the future.


You won't find anything mainstream in my shop (okay, except for SD Cards )) - neverever, because I'm not interested in that.

ED, does the above mean that GCW's Justin sold you the last lot of Zeros that he had? That's good news.

 

[Binky]

Frankly - and I say this as someone having started a few polls like this - I'd prefer first seeing some actual indication that OPT actually cares about the results of these polls.

That's also my feeling. They don't really care about those polls.


But they shoud. Else everything "community project" related would be more or less a lie.


We shouldn't have to open these polls. OPT should. That's what a community project is.

Also my thoughts. Theres an awesome community round the Pandora, and there are some great people making it, but communication is problematic.


It generally goes like this:

• Craig drops a hint
  
• Community disagrees
  
• Community thrashes out what they would actually like
  
• Community member starts poll
  
• Community votes on poll
  
• .
  

What we should have is:

• Official "what is OP team considering atm" post explaining possibilities
  
• Craig, Ed or other team member starts poll
  
• Community votes
  
• Community discusses
  
• OP team reads thread, looks at poll results
  
• OP team makes preliminary decision based on poll, andany other considerations
  
• Official post announcing preliminary decision with explantions
  
• EITHER Community makes a big fuss (back to step 4)
  
• OR community is mostly happy
  

I sure don't care about mainstream.


I rather want to have a unique device than something that sells like hell.


I've always appreciated small projects more than mainstream crap, that's how I came into the community (with the GP32). I supported and still support these small projects (GP2X, Caanoo, WIZ, Everdrives, RetroDE 2 and now the GCW Zero) and will continue to do so in the future.


You won't find anything mainstream in my shop (okay, except for SD Cards )) - neverever, because I'm not interested in that.

Yes. This is the attitude we need in the P2 development & design team

Here's a thought:


OP team obviously believe there is room for (almost) everything required in a 117x61(+) case


On my P1, I find some controls a little too close to my hands (fn, B, X, in particular)


If the P2 used the same aluminium faceplate as the iCP2, but with 1cm plastic wings either, side, there would be and extra 24cm^2 of PCB space (no keys on the top) which is enough for twin fullSDXC, and some other cool stuff, while moving the controls inward towards (my) natural holding positions (A and right on the P1). The pocketability would not be affected, it would be no bigger than the P1, but the battery could be bigger.


Whats to lose?

I didn't like the lack of pocketability with the Pandora. It's small but at the same time not that small. This is good for the hands but not so much for the pockets. I actually wouldn't mind if it's offspring was a little more petite.

My proposal would be thinner, and shallower, but the same left-right width as the P1


This would make the P2 more pocketable than the P1

 

[_wb_]

Here's a thought:


OP team obviously believe there is room for (almost) everything required in a 117x61(+) case


On my P1, I find some controls a little too close to my hands (fn, B, X, in particular)


If the P2 used the same aluminium faceplate as the iCP2, but with 1cm plastic wings either, side, there would be and extra 24cm^2 of PCB space (no keys on the top) which is enough for twin fullSDXC, and some other cool stuff, while moving the controls inward towards (my) natural holding positions (A and right on the P1). The pocketability would not be affected, it would be no bigger than the P1, but the battery could be bigger.


Whats to lose?

I didn't like the lack of pocketability with the Pandora. It's small but at the same time not that small. This is good for the hands but not so much for the pockets. I actually wouldn't mind if it's offspring was a little more petite.

I say: optimize it for the hands, not for the pockets! I can always adjust the size of my pockets (e.g. by buying different pants), but I cannot adjust the size of my hands!

Frankly - and I say this as someone having started a few polls like this - I'd prefer first seeing some actual indication that OPT actually cares about the results of these polls.

That's also my feeling. They don't really care about those polls.


But they shoud. Else everything "community project" related would be more or less a lie.


We shouldn't have to open these polls. OPT should. That's what a community project is.

I think it's more of a community input scenario than a community project. I hold no delusions that I have any real stake in Openpandora at the end of the day. I'm just happy I get to enjoy their products and read what they'll throw our way next.

Community input, not community decides, I can live with that. But "input" should mean that we can give our opinions on the choices to be made BEFORE the final decisions are made, not afterwards. And it should not be input that gets redirected to /dev/null; I want to see real reasons when a community consensus is ignored, not bullshit arguments like "we have to do it this way because otherwise the P2 will be a joke", "by 2014, everybody will do it this way", or "there is not enough space for that".

 

[EvilDragon]

I sure don't care about mainstream.


I rather want to have a unique device than something that sells like hell.


I've always appreciated small projects more than mainstream crap, that's how I came into the community (with the GP32). I supported and still support these small projects (GP2X, Caanoo, WIZ, Everdrives, RetroDE 2 and now the GCW Zero) and will continue to do so in the future.


You won't find anything mainstream in my shop (okay, except for SD Cards )) - neverever, because I'm not interested in that.

ED, does the above mean that GCW's Justin sold you the last lot of Zeros that he had? That's good news.

Yes, and I also ordered and paid 100 normal ones right away so I can resell them in Germany. But lets not get offtopic