MIPI woes, good design ideas and headaches

Ziz

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Another thing you didn't explain: Why not just using numbers?




(1) (4)
(2) (5)
(3) (6)I don't see any disadvantage. Nobody would tell you "Press button 1" or "Press (1)", if the person would mean the KEY 1 on the keyboard. In this case obviously the game button (1) is meant. Furthermore none of the emulated consoles uses numbers, so it isn't confusing anymore, that A is X, X is Y and B is actually A on this device.
 I mentioned this too. My gamepads have numbers on the buttons and I never had problems with this, you just have to take care that the numbers match the input numeration in the driver.
That is developer stuff. Developer don't care so much about the ergonomics as users do. I don't care if I have to define the buttons this way:


#define BUTTON_1 12
#define BUTTON_2 14
#define BUTTON_3 16
#define BUTTON_4 13
#define BUTTON_5 15
#define BUTTON_6 17
However the pyra will probably use some keyboard keys again. So (1) will be page down, (2) page up, etc, so this doesn't matter at all.In my opinion IF we choose a ARM SOC, we should try to use a similar layout as for the pandora.
 

Neelix

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Another thing you didn't explain: Why not just using numbers?


(1) (4)
(2) (5)
(3) (6)
I don't see any disadvantage. Nobody would tell you "Press button 1" or "Press (1)", if the person would mean the KEY 1 on the keyboard. In this case obviously the game button (1) is meant. Furthermore none of the emulated consoles uses numbers, so it isn't confusing anymore, that A is X, X is Y and B is actually A on this device.
Why is it obvious? All the keys are buttons.  You make the assumption that all end users will make the same assumption you do.  That's asking for trouble.

- Neelix
 
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Ziz

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But the same problem you would have with letters, too. ;) With the difference, that "a" (WASD) or "x" and "y" are really used sometimes, but I never heard of a PC game (and most of the time PC game ports have this issue), where you with with 1 or jump with 2...
 

God Ginrai

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This is not sufficiently backwards-compatible with Pandora. Changing the symbols is a drastic but acceptable change in my opinion, but keeping the same symbols and putting them in a different order is extremely confusing.
It doesn't need to be. You realize that changing it to Greek letters doesn't make it backwards compatible with the Pandora either... Also, our buttons aren't going to be gigantic, there would be no room to put readable Latin letters inside of the Greek letters. Besides, even if the buttons are labeled differently, the buttons will likely be in the same position with respect to each other as far as the keys that they represent are concerned, so I don't see any dire consequences that would come from different labelling. (PageDown will still be below PageUp, Home will still be to the left of End)

-God Ginrai
 

_wb_

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This is not sufficiently backwards-compatible with Pandora. Changing the symbols is a drastic but acceptable change in my opinion, but keeping the same symbols and putting them in a different order is extremely confusing.
It doesn't need to be. You realize that changing it to Greek letters doesn't make it backwards compatible with the Pandora either... Also, our buttons aren't going to be gigantic, there would be no room to put readable Latin letters inside of the Greek letters. Besides, even if the buttons are labeled differently, the buttons will likely be in the same position with respect to each other as far as the keys that they represent are concerned, so I don't see any dire consequences that would come from different labelling. (PageDown will still be below PageUp, Home will still be to the left of End)

-God Ginrai
There is room to put one readable Latin letter inside one big Greek letter, just like there is room for labels of keyboard keys for the key itself and the Fn key. On the Pandora there is a key labeled "Shift / Caps Lock" and it is readable. So I don't think it's a big problem to do that.


If we use Π/A  Ω/B  χ  Δ/Y for the main buttons and Γ (Gamma, looks a bit like an "r") and ν (Nu, looks like a "v") for the extra buttons, the buttons can spell the words Pyra, Pandora and DragonBox (if you're fine with a mix of Greek and Latin letters that is), are completely backwards compatible with Pandora, can be described using plain ASCII (A B X Y r v), can be described using non-ambiguous symbols (Π Ω χ Δ Γ ν) that are present in nearly all fonts, and the Π Ω Δ X layout is pretty good for PS1 and PSP emulation without actually using the ◯ △ X shapes.
 

Ziz

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How about keeping the old system and adding two buttons (maybe even with another background color) with a complete different approach on labeling?

Like:

Code:
    (1)
  (Y) (2)
(A) (
  (X)
or
Code:
    (+)
  (Y) (-)
(A) (
  (X)
 
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God Ginrai

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_wb_

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How about keeping the old system and adding two buttons (maybe even with another background color) with a complete different approach on labeling?


Like:


(1)
(Y) (2)
(A) (
(X)

or
Code:
    (+)
  (Y) (-)
(A) (
  (X)
Yes, that makes sense. If + and - map to insert and delete it even makes kind of sense semantically too. Still, it's confusing to have different keys with the same symbol on them. People may expect + to produce an actual "+" symbol when they're typing, and it's confusing to have to refer to the + button and the + key, and what does Shift+A or Ctrl-B mean?

I still prefer Π Ω Δ X  :)
 
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Ziz

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(+) and (-) could in fact be the + and - keys. They are used quite often, especially in browsers for zooming in/out. They need some key-allocations anyway if we keep the old system. ;)
 

God Ginrai

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(+) and (-) could in fact be the + and - keys. They are used quite often, especially in browsers for zooming in/out.
Used quite often? I would hardly think so. In coding, maybe, but outside of that not much at all.

Also, Insert and delete would be much more useful keys to have on the buttons

-God Ginrai
 

Ziz

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I don't code on my pandora very often.

But I use the terminal, most parameters need a -.

And as said most browsers use + and -, too. :)
 

levi

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I don't think I've pressed Insert on any computer keyboard for over 15 years now. What does it do?


As for delete, I've migrated to using backspace even on PCs except inside vi, where x works admirably.
 
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TrashyMG

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I don't think I've pressed Insert on any computer keyboard for over 15 years now. What does it do?
Really!? most programs it toggles from inserting characters into a line when typing(displacing the characters) to just writing over it. It's handy if doing edits where you don't have to hit the delete or backspace button a lot of times to edit a line.
 
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_jr_

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But this toggling requires quite a lot of brain support I don't have :) To me it is easier if it is explicit like in vi with 'R' vs. 'i'. Real overwriting is essential for tabulated data (or ASCII art), though.
 
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Kiga

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   Δ

Π  Ω

   χ

    Δ

Π    Ω

    χ

   Δ

Π   Ω

   χ

  Δ

Π   Ω

  χ

   Δ

Π   Ω

   χ
That perfectly fit Pyra. Because it is math/geek, and Pyra is a greek name. It is ogirinal but seems natural not freak/wtf like cards signs for example.

And people who don't know greek name still can say square/triangle/circle/X

That's the best choice, No Doubt.
 
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