Keyboard Poll, Finally!

[plopperz]

Should we make another poll?

Probably not, the devs can look at this poll and adjust their current design accordingly, it shouldn't have to follow the exact design.

 

[TaG]

Hence my desire for the keys to have QWERTY printed on them, and nothing else. But I am in the far minority

A agree that last design by Peca is very interesting, and I wish that it was in the poll among other choices. It's unfortunate that during all that discusion (a week, or even almost two weeks) nobody had submitted a so clean proposal like that. Unfortunately CoMiKe had withdrawn his design, because it, as he said, was unfinished and lacked punctuation.
Peca's design is certainly clean, and I can understand why it would be proposed, but it is one step removed from not printing anything at all so that our French and Russian cousins don't have to look at QWERTY all the time.

I think it is necessary to have punctuation keys printed. I have a thought, which is perhaps not fully thought through but I will float it anyway. Most of the punctuation keys are not used quite as frequently as letters, numbers and a few punctuation keys like .,? Perhaps it is possible to print most of the lesser used punctuation and leave a number of keys free, along the lines of Peca's design. That way the lesser used punctuation that you are more likely to forget are marked an those that are used regularly, and will easily remember, you can map how you like. That also means that all the other keys like Alt, Ctrl, Fn are mapped as you like and keys like Home, End, Pg Up and Pg Dn can be omitted or mapped as you like. As the number of these keys is far fewer than all punctuation etc, it is more likely to be remembered.

I think one of the biggest problems is what people outside of these forums would think of any keyboard where any keys aren't printed. Those that have read these threads would understand (whether they liked the design or not) but can you imagine the views of the population at large when they see Engadget or whatever.

As I say just a thought. What do you think?

 

[WizardStan]

Should we make another poll? Personally I'm getting sick of that... And If devs are going to print kays layout soon on the first batch - perhaps it's too late already, it would make things too complicated.

I wouldn't. It's blindingly obvious that the majority want punctuation on the keys of some type. The poll works as is for finding out just what combination the general public wants to settle on. I'm sure I can get used to whatever comes up, and if not, I'm sure a bottle of nail polish remover can solve the problem
Nail polish remove eats EVERYTHING!

 

[TaG]

Should we make another poll? Personally I'm getting sick of that... And If devs are going to print kays layout soon on the first batch - perhaps it's too late already, it would make things too complicated.
I wouldn't. It's blindingly obvious that the majority want punctuation on the keys of some type. The poll works as is for finding out just what combination the general public wants to settle on. I'm sure I can get used to whatever comes up, and if not, I'm sure a bottle of nail polish remover can solve the problem
Nail polish remove eats EVERYTHING!
I'm not even going to ask why you have nail polish remover....

Hopefully it won't remove half of the keys themselves too.

 

[AireTamStorm]

Nail polish remover does a damn good job at removing things. What can we say?

 

[Esn]

EDIT: in fact I wish very much there was a way to put ',' and '.' as primary keys.... but there simply were too many symbols to put there. There were already few people complaining that I removed €,£ and ¥ ... I was trying to balance everything in the best possible way...

For me, it basically comes down to which keys will be used more frequently. Will "ctrl" and "alt" really be used more frequently than "," or "."? What exactly are people using "ctrl" and "alt" for so much that they have to be primary keys? I've gone all day today without using either one.

 

[DasFool]

I strongly agree with having dedicated comma and period keys. I have a cell phone with a keyboard and when text messaging i use those keys pretty often. For doing any kind of text editing it will be extremely annoying to have to hit multiple keys each time you need one of these keys.

 

[cosurgi]

I strongly agree with having dedicated comma and period keys. I have a cell phone with a keyboard and when text messaging i use those keys pretty often. For doing any kind of text editing it will be extremely annoying to have to hit multiple keys each time you need one of these keys.

It is beyond my comprehension, why you didn't submit your design when the discussion was going on. But now you are coming to complain. All the effort I did here was to encourage community in finding the best design. It's not that I enforced anybody voting on my design. It was all a very lenghty discussion. And everybody including you was able to submit a design. Also you could have added a poll voting option in 2nd question about ',' and '.', eg. "I prefer ',' and '.' more than Alt,Ctrl". But you didn't.

If you want to know why people like Alt,Ctrl on keyboard see: 1 2 3 4 5 and maybe a few more, that I simply forgot to link.

Everything is clear now?

I don't want this thread to turn into a flame of those people who lost the voting. It's democracy, the worst system ever, there's nothing you can do about it. I'm guessing that the devs would rather please the biggest amount of their customers, no matter how much others will be bitching.

But of course all the results here is just a suggestion for Pandora's design, the devs will surely do what they think is the best overall for Pandora and its users.

I'll reiterate, that I'm happy that over 72% of people want Alt,Ctrl labeled on the keyboard (no matter where) and thus the winning design will satisfy those people.

PS: I am sorry about sounding harsh.

 

[Esn]

Well, jargon-heavy hardware discussions tend to be self-selecting; I saw one of those threads, but was afraid to participate in it because my lack of knowledge would have become apparent quickly. And there were so many responses already! It's kind of like when telemarketers call people and there's an inherent selection bias because the only answers they get are from people who can spare 20 minutes. Maybe that's a bad analogy. Anyway.

All I know is that I've gone a second day now without using either "ctrl" or "alt" (not consciously; it just so happened that I never seem to use those buttons). Maybe it's different for Linux. It's not really a big deal because it'll be possible to change the key functions, but I still don't understand the reasoning despite those links you posted.

The people who support "ctrl" and "alt" instead of "," and "." - do they expect that they will use those two buttons more frequently? This isn't snark, it's an honest question.

 

[MilanC]

ctrl and alt are almost *always* used in key combinations, so they must be primary keys - not Fn+something. And yes, they're extremely important in linux.
',' and '.' are important too. But having to use a modifier isn't dramatic, as they're in no standard key combinations - they're used alone most of the time.
And anyway, many punctuation marks need a modifier. For example, here on French keyboard: '?' and '.' use shift. Isn't a problem. Just replace shift with fn.

 

[greendots]

ctrl and alt are almost *always* used in key combinations, so they must be primary keys - not Fn+something. And yes, they're extremely important in linux.
',' and '.' are important too.
...

Yes they are used often in linux. They are used most when switching programs (alt+tab), cut-copy-pasting, and in conjuction with F# keys to switch sessions. Then there is many special uses of the two keys in programs like screen, emacs and others.

Could any one who voted that way state why they would prefer alt and ctrl on the keyboard rather then the game control buttons (L or R / ABXY)?

One closing thought: Ellipsis is the internet's favorite punctuation and it would require 6 key strokes. :rolleyes:

 

[Arialia]

i have voted for a) ( french native language but don't need accent letters marked ) , for Cosurgi's layout ( like also Kagato's) and voted for Fn in left bottom with Ctrl , and Alt on right bottom

In reality i use Ctrl only for text/files operation ( Cut, Copy, Paste) and now to activate IME (Ctrl+Space)

I use only Alt for Windows Screenshot ( Alt+PrtSc) and for OS operation ( Ctrl+Alt+Del to reboot, Alt+Ctrl+Backspace to kill X, and Alt+Ctrl+F1 ....Alt+Ctrl+F7 to access to virtual console) and Alt+Tab for switching between Launched Application

But i use more AltGr to access ~ # { [ | `\ ^ @ ] } €

I know most applications use Alt for Shortcuts, but as i never remind them ....

Also all applications which use Alt for shorcut needed to be rewrite for using screen correctly , so change their shorcuts is not a big problem.

So no having 'Alt' mean modify Linux shortcuts why not replace 'Alt' by 'Pandora button' for all system operations ?

a key Compose seems to me more important than Alt and AltGr ( as in Cosurgi's final design only need for € )

Having Ctrl and Alt key means better compatibility : only needed to be rewrite is apearance of screen , rendering information on screen ....

This thread would need more times and experiment to discuss, but it has began late.

For thanks to Evildragon i want put β on keyboard, a £ for Craig, for others i don't know

Again good idea Cosurgi for all keyboard's topic

 

[Arialia]

One closing thought: Ellipsis is the internet's favorite punctuation and it would require 6 key strokes. :rolleyes:

as on my native keyboard no change ...

well no need only four keypress

1 - press and hold 'shift'
2 - press and release '.' ( in reality ';' )
3 - press and release '.'
4 - press and release '.'
release 'shift'

maybe can we do same thing with 'Fn' on Pandora

 

[cosurgi]

So no having 'Alt' mean modify Linux shortcuts why not replace 'Alt' by 'Pandora button' for all system operations ?
sounds interesting. Perhaps like that (where that logo really means 'Alt' for the system):

This thread would need more times and experiment to discuss, but it has began late.
yes, unfortunately.

For thanks to Evildragon i want put ß on keyboard, a £ for Craig, for others i don't know

You are right, I have added here ß, £, € and ¥ as AltGr on keys S, P, E and Y

SVG SOURCE
of course it's completely up to the devs what they will pick (because the revision above was never voted for).

Again good idea Cosurgi for all keyboard's topic

thanks

My guess is that this topic will never die, even after the first batch is shipped and after I'll have my Pandora here on my desk.

 

[TaG]

I have added here ß, £, € and ¥ as AltGr on keys S, P, E and Y
I've got a feeling this is going to be obvious and I have lost the plot, but here goes...

How do you access ß, £, € and ¥ ?

I'll vote for anything that gives a Pandora key.

 

[DasFool]

But now you are coming to complain.

I didn't mean to make it sound like complaining. I actually voted for your mockup and not until later noticed the '.' and ',' keys were multiple keypresses. To be completely truthful, the important keys will be dictated by what people actually do with their device. If you are sitting around pidgeoning or writing stories/fanfics all day then you'll probably mainly want normal punctuation as a priority (or maybe not, depending on how you type, lol). If you are writing html/xml you'll likely want '<' and '>'

I agree with what you are doing, I'm just hoping people are thinking about what they intend to do on the device (and I hope we get the programs to do what we'd like to do ) when they are voting for their favorite keyboard style.

 

[peca]

well no need only four keypress

1 - press and hold 'shift'
2 - press and release '.' ( in reality ';' )
3 - press and release '.'
4 - press and release '.'
release 'shift'

maybe can we do same thing with 'Fn' on Pandora

You are wrong. When holding in hands and thumbtyping, as is common on such small device, you must 3 times press and release 'shift' then press and release '.'. So L/R for Ctrl/Alt is obvious place for comfortable typing. Pandora is not comfortable for desktop typing by more than 1 finger at time and 2 fingers alternately, which lead as have to sticky buttons.

Yes somebody with tiny fingers can comfortably type by 10 fingers on desktop. Not me. Opposite it I want use Pandora in armchair, bus, bed, train, metro, tram, toilet,... whenever I take it together. Any place that hasn't solid horizontal area disallow finger typing and lead to hold Pandora in hands (as it is hand held) and type by thumbs with fingers on shoulder buttons.

Try 1:1 paper model or just imagine and think about it.

/no offense

I just hope for availability of alternate template without alt and ctrl, but doubtfully in first production batch. May be later as replacement part.

 

[Arialia]

well no need only four keypress

1 - press and hold 'shift'
2 - press and release '.' ( in reality ';' )
3 - press and release '.'
4 - press and release '.'
release 'shift'

maybe can we do same thing with 'Fn' on Pandora

You are wrong. When holding in hands and thumbtyping, as is common on such small device, you must 3 times press and release 'shift' then press and release '.'. So L/R for Ctrl/Alt is obvious place for comfortable typing. Pandora is not comfortable for desktop typing by more than 1 finger at time and 2 fingers alternately, which lead as have to sticky buttons.

Yes somebody with tiny fingers can comfortably type by 10 fingers on desktop. Not me. Opposite it I want use Pandora in armchair, bus, bed, train, metro, tram, toilet,... whenever I take it together. Any place that hasn't solid horizontal area disallow finger typing and lead to hold Pandora in hands (as it is hand held) and type by thumbs with fingers on shoulder buttons.

Try 1:1 paper model or just imagine and think about it.

/no offense

I just hope for availability of alternate template without alt and ctrl, but doubtfully in first production batch. May be later as replacement part.


I have tried it and it is easy to do for me with thumb but with version Cosurgi with 'Fn' in left bottom.

the comportement you describe is in fact the same on my sharp PC1360
also it is not difficult to press two keys on it but no more at same time of course

the problem is to choose between 'sticky' key or 'modifier' key like 'Fn' on my laptop
ctrl and Alt on shoulder is ok too ( mouse mode off ), why not both perhaps ?
want a real pandora to test

 

[WizardStan]

You are wrong. When holding in hands and thumbtyping, as is common on such small device, you must 3 times press and release 'shift' then press and release '.'.

That may be true for other handhelds like phones and such, but remember, the keyboard is entirely software controlled. There's no reason it can't be written to accept shift-hold as on a normal keyboard. It may not be as such, the driver could go sticky-key only, but in theory you can have both.

 

[kagato]

I've used a couple of devices with thumb keyboards. They all used sticky keys for modifiers, but also allowed you to press-and-hold them as well. Pandora should be capable of doing the same.

So if , . are too close to Fn, you'd have to press [Fn],[key],[Fn],[key],[Fn],[key] with one thumb.
If they're on the other side of the keyboard, you can hold Fn with one and press [key],[key],[key] with the other.

For that reason, a minor revision I'd recommend to Cosurgi's layout would be to swap , . and < > so they're easier to reach.
(They'd normally be on the same keys anyway, so it's not messing up the traditional symbol order.)

I don't think an updated diagram is necessary