Keyboard Poll, Finally!

[TaG]

Looking at the poll it seems that Cosurgi's layout has been chosen most because of Alt and ctrl keys appearing on the keypad. The first thing I notice is that it will be impossible to hold alt+click to drag a window.
ouch. I should have thought about that. That's how I'm dragging windows here. Fortunately it can be solved if we swap "mouse move" with "mouse scroller" analog sticks. Then you press Alt with left thumb, LMB with second left finger, and drag with right thumb.Assuming Alt key is on the left, it's easy. Hold in left hand, press alt key, touch stylus to screen, drag window.
I've just simulated such a move with my DS. Works great if the alt key is on the L trigger. Or R trigger if you're left handed.
I still don't understand why people are mapping "mouse" to the analog sticks when you have a 1st order pointing device in the form of a touch screen. Can someone explain it, preferably using small words, because I'm clearly missing the point somewhere.I think people are trying to utilise the keyboard without stylus because it is not easy to type with both hands(thumbs) and hold a stylus. As a user of a PDA with keyboard I can tell you that it can be a PITA when keep taking the stylus in and out.

Perhaps more to the point is how much dragging of windows do people expect to be doing on a device this size? I would imagine ctrl + tab and/or alt + tab to switch would be quicker.

@cosurgi I don't think you should change part way through a poll. Just edit the text and say that it can be used either way round.

 

[cosurgi]

I still don't understand why people are mapping "mouse" to the analog sticks when you have a 1st order pointing device in the form of a touch screen. Can someone explain it, preferably using small words, because I'm clearly missing the point somewhere.

Of course you are right, but this doesn't prevent me from trying to make the keyboard as much comfortable as possible. The fact that we have a touchscreen makes pandora even more better. Imagine: comfortable keyboard and comfortable touchscreen is more than just a comfortable touchscreen with uncomfortable keyboard

@cosurgi I don't think you should change part way through a poll. Just edit the text and say that it can be used either way round.

Ok I'm sorry, fixed, and won't do that again.

 

[TaG]

@cosurgi I don't think you should change part way through a poll. Just edit the text and say that it can be used either way round.
Ok I'm sorry, fixed, and won't do that again.Certainly no apology required - I was expressing my opinion.

 

[nubie]

I like that we are discussing this.

At the very least I hope that we get an easy to use GUI that can change the layout. And most importantly that all software abides by the settings that we choose. (making the driver configurable would be best, but just as long as people don't start coding apps with their own wacky keyboard support, it is a hassle on the GP2X with 10 buttons, on the Pandora it could be much worse.)

As a middle ground I hope that we can reach a compromise with one set of keyboards.

Middle to best would be a couple of layouts, I don't really mind getting one with extra characters, but if I don't use Roman alphabets it would be nice if they weren't there.

Best would be configurable layout and a choice of keyboards. I don't know if this is even possible, but if it could be done for $20-30 then it might be desirable.

With the "Fn" and Ctrl business, it probably would be best if that was configurable because you don't really know how it will work until you use it. Leave the button on the face for Fn, but make it easy to swap ctr/alt/Fn around between that button and the two triggers in software.

I can't actually imagine the software that I will be running, or whether it will change over time. I might find that for typing/emailing/chatting I like to have a shift key on trigger, and when I am browsing I would rather have a ctrl key for the browser functions.

If I was emulating old computers I might need to use ctrl-alt-del more. So configurable would be best.

I guess now that I think of it maybe Fn on the face and ctrl on the left, Alt on the right trigger. I don't know if labeling the triggers is a good idea (will it wear off? Will anyone even think to read them? If you are going to configure them yourself won't that lead to confusion? Do any other handhelds have a Ctrl/Alt key? Would people miss it if they didn't set it up?)

 

[quantenmagier]

heyho,

the kyrillic thing looks great, but some label like ä or é are not usefull (long life the compose-key),
one could remove them and put runes on its place instead ;-)

anyway i would be happy with the keyboard as long as it has:
-an ß somewhere (probable best on the s-key because [compose] or [Alt Gr]+ result in [ß])
-and a dedicated compose-key
thats what i'm actually missing on many designs... :-(

i also like the idea of conso to have mediaplayer-buttons and a key-lock :-]

greets
Simon

edit:
And what about the scrolllock, often when having complicated combinations for it everithing is already scrolled out of screen, so a dedicated scroll-lock is important, i always hate my laptop-keyboard for not having it dedicated.
I think a sysreg key (e.g. for emergency sync) is not needed, because we won't expect the linux crash

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

Why the hell is everyone still talking about revisions here? The poll is up, and I think the results are fairly clear-cut as to what people like. If you really wanted your opinion represented, you should've made a design yourself!

 

[conso]

Why the hell is everyone still talking about revisions here? The poll is up, and I think the results are fairly clear-cut as to what people like. If you really wanted your opinion represented, you should've made a design yourself!

What the hell are you talking about. It's not like anyone officially objected cosourgi with the task to create a poll that ultimatly defines the upcoming layout.
Don't get me wrong, it's great that he did this work and we now clearly see what most people like, but that doesn't mean there's no room for optimization. We know people want ctrl-alt as dedicated keys on the lower-left and that there is no need for predefined mapping of non-roman keys and accents. We also know, that cosourgi's design is for most people the closest to their needs. Still there is room to discuss certain elements of it.

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

There may be room, but not a point. Seriously, it's a damn keyboard. If you don't like what it ships with, then fine, just reconfigure it in the software, then. The argument at this point is over what should be physically printed on the keyboard itself, and all the major points of interest have already been ironed out by the polls. Banter over whether button A should do X and button B should do Y is just a waste of time and another kink to throw into development at this point.

 

[MWeston]

This might sound like a stupid question, but what do you use the ALT key for? Where does that come up in Linux?

As you have seen in my videos, I run on Windows and use VMWare for my Linux disty and the only time I use the ALT key is at the same time as CTRL to get out of it and back to Windows


I'm just curious, humor me please.

 

[daemonaholic]

This might sound like a stupid question, but what do you use the ALT key for? Where does that come up in Linux?

As you have seen in my videos, I run on Windows and use VMWare for my Linux disty and the only time I use the ALT key is at the same time as CTRL to get out of it and back to Windows

I'm just curious, humor me please.



Alt+Tab

 

[conso]

alt is often used for windows-operations. Thinking of the small resolution of the pandora, there might be a lot of apps that are just to big for it. simply press alt and you can move the window with the touchscreen whereever you want, over all barriers and without the need to touch the window-decoration.
alt+tab is for window-switching. alt+F1/F2/F3... for switching virtual desctops. strg+alt+F1/F2... for switching virtual terminals. A lot of programm-specific shortcuts use alt, too.

 

[MWeston]

Yeah, I use Alt-tab in Windows all the time and I'm sure it applies to Linux as well. They tend to share ideas of what works as the software evolves.

Pandora is little and not quite so 'window-y', at least that is what I think. I had imagined that MENU/Pandora button would be useful for task switching if it gets used much.

I see the value of a CTRL key more and more, but I don't see the same for ALT.

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

Eh, I'd prefer the CTRL and ALT keys in a Windows format anyways, as I'll probably be mapping a lot of these functions to their Windows macro counterparts, that being what I'm most used to.

 

[peca]

And I guess more and more, that layout with only QWERTY letters and numbers on top row is all what I want see on keyboard buttons. Than everybody can change layout as wish and use ethanol permanent pen to describe it :-/

edit: add picture
edit: forgot remove "space" from template

 

[peca]

Oh, doesn't "Select" button does switching between applications? So now Craig have good function for this key and can have holidays.

 

[kagato]

Heck, the Pandora is supposed to be mod-friendly, and easy(ish) to open.
Maybe MWeston can set aside 1% of the keys to be left unprinted. If people don't like the default keyboard, they can pay an extra $5 or so and get a bag of blank keys they can label however they want.

 

[zaoin]

You missed one option in your poll

"I'm using a ROMAN ALPHABET language (Spanish, Catalan, Portugues) with lots of accented letters (àáèéíïòóúü) but standard keyboards for my language never had specific keys for each accented letter, they use several special (dead) keys instead. I really want these keys"

I agree.

I hope that keyboard software will be easy to setup. :huh:

Compose key +a = á or à ?

 

[nightwheel]

Wow, That was a lot to read through.

But I felt I made the right choices.

 

[cosurgi]

You missed one option in your poll

"I'm using a ROMAN ALPHABET language (Spanish, Catalan, Portugues) with lots of accented letters (àáèéíïòóúü) but standard keyboards for my language never had specific keys for each accented letter, they use several special (dead) keys instead. I really want these keys"

I agree.

I'm sorry. The option most close to it is c) - "several accented letters" and "WANT them printed".

I hope that keyboard software will be easy to setup. :huh:

Compose key +a = á or à ?

Oh, that will work, you have both acute and grave:
Compose+A+A = Compose + ` + a = à
Compose+L+A = Compose + ' + a = á

satisfied?

 

[cosurgi]

This might sound like a stupid question, but what do you use the ALT key for? Where does that come up in Linux?

As you have seen in my videos, I run on Windows and use VMWare for my Linux disty and the only time I use the ALT key is at the same time as CTRL to get out of it and back to Windows

I'm just curious, humor me please.


Heh, it never crossed my mind that Alt might be less important, but as I was participating in all that discussion I think that nobody else proposed something like that. This is why the 2nd poll question treats Alt,Ctrl together... and so far nobody complained about missing poll options. This is my excuse for not putting a poll option for this.

I'm using Alt for keyboard shortcuts and window management (no, not moving windows around, I'm not planning to do that on 4.3" display). I will also use it in place of windows-meta key shortcuts which is on my keyboard (it should have a tux on it). IMHO those two functionalities cramped together in single key justify its presence on the keyboard.

Honestly, I'm glad that 70% of people want Alt, Ctrl on the keyboard (in various positions) and only 30% do not want it.

And I guess more and more, that layout with only QWERTY letters and numbers on top row is all what I want see on keyboard buttons. Than everybody can change layout as wish and use ethanol permanent pen to describe it :-/

edit: add picture
edit: forgot remove "space" from template


@peca: wow, I wish that such design was an option in the poll. CoMiKe's design was like that, but he decided to withdraw it... and I foolishly let him to do this..