Keyboard Layout - Prepare Voting Pool.

[kagato]

I'm afraid it will be a nice way to lose time while typing. And, it might be an ugly hack - some program remembers last keypress, and when you press the accents key combination, it sends backspace+(last typed character but with next accent in list).

The idea is based on Windows Mobile, which has a Symbol (SYM) key (fn-space on my phone).
It behaves exactly as described earlier; repeated presses cycle through the valid accents on the previously typed character.

I don't know how it should be implemented in software. Given the open nature of software development on the Pandora, it might just be that the correct behaviour is documented, and it's up to applications to implement correctly. But note that this will be the case for any accent method not based on single key input.

 

[MilanC]

A better approach (maybe not faster, but cleaner implementation) might be cycling through accents first, then press accented key) - there wouldn't be that "press key - delete character - put it back with accent" thing.
Of course, you must know how many keypresses you need for each accent. But then, even if you need é, è, ê, ë, ě (dual language: french+czech), you don't get past 5 different accents for the same letter, and I trust it's not too hard to remember how many times you pressed accent key, and in which order they come, so no real need to see that on screen beforehand.

Gets closer to touch typing (forces you to learn what you must press, instead of searching for it every time), and gets rid of that last bit of el-cheapo-cellphone-style typing system.

 

[kagato]

A better approach (maybe not faster, but cleaner implementation) might be cycling through accents first, then press accented key) - there wouldn't be that "press key - delete character - put it back with accent" thing.
Of course, you must know how many keypresses you need for each accent. But then, even if you need é, è, ê, ë, ě (dual language: french+czech), you don't get past 5 different accents for the same letter, and I trust it's not too hard to remember how many times you pressed accent key, and in which order they come, so no real need to see that on screen beforehand.

I think you can get away with one silent keypress without feedback, but any more and you risk losing track of where you're up to. 5 presses is way too many. It could maybe be done with a system-level screen overlay (for X apps, anyway) that displays the accent that will be applied... but I'm not sure it would work well, because not all accents can be applied to all characters. Your approach would require cycling through all possible accents (applicable or not), which could be more than 5 presses; and what happens if you type a letter that does't use the selected accent?

 

[AireTamStorm]

It could maybe be done with a system-level screen overlay (for X apps, anyway) that displays the accent that will be applied... but I'm not sure it would work well, because not all accents can be applied to all characters.

How many non-X11 apps can you think of that will need international input? From what I've seen, the only things that will require you to leave X are games and maybe the fbterminal.

 

[White Demon]

20. Kagato 5: Final revision.

I like this keyboard. Also no labelling on the dpad and game buttons (other than ABXY of course), just like above. Most people will be able to remember what their assigned functions are pretty quickly, and will also be better for those that want to set them up differently to the default.

When it comes to designs like this, less is best.

 

[greendots]

Im still really concerned about kagato's design of the number row. shift+# has a standard definition in QWERTY. Also, that wireless may accidentally turned off with the two buttons right next to each other.

Here is another keyboard. I tried to conform closely to QWERTY-US keyboard. F11 and F12 could be mapped by default to Y+Fn and B+Fn on the game pad portion (This will leave regular keypress for meta buttons etc). I think this is the best of both keyboard layouts.

 

[AireTamStorm]

This topic went off topic, and should probably be merged with the original. I don't know which one to post in anymore, as they both have the same content.

 

[cosurgi]

Cosurgi, please remove obsolete designs from voting. Ie all Kagato and me that evolve to final one.
AFAIK, Vote can be established while creating new thread.
OR (more difficulty and hand made) just gather few final templates and every body post JUST ONE post with 3 votes (or less), in order that he wish to give to 3 (ore less) templates. So if he most wanted is not voted, move his (her) vote to second in order. I don't know if I tell it clearly, do you understand me?

edit: I think, that every picture with layout needs description. Ie, from Kagato's template isn't obvious how to type national characters, nor even that it is possible, and using others unlabeled keys.


@peca I already made one blunder by creating this thread without a poll. I would feel better if someone else opened a poll. Since you have proposed to me to do this - you are the best candidate to do it yourself. Please open a poll if you feel up to the task. I don't...

I think that aparat from voting to pick the best kayboard (without obsolete proposals), It would be interesting to put following poll choices:

1. Do you want to have cyryllic secondary characters printed on your Pandora?
a) yes
b) no
(strikeout cyryllic, it can be any of other possible alphabets too...)
(I decided to strikeout this one, because in fact it is a duplicate of question 2c and 2d)

2. Do you want to have YOUR OWN language specific characters to be printed on the keyboard?
a) yes to accented letters, I'm using roman alphabet with several accented letters
b) no accented letters, I'm using roman alphabet with several accented letters but I don't want them printed on the keyboard. I know my own language very good, and I know the obvious key combinations to write an accented letter that I need
c) yes to other alphabets, I'm using language that doesn't use roman alphabet, so all the keys need a special character in another alphabet
d) no to other alphabets, I'm using language that doesn't use roman alphabet and I prefer to have only QWERTY and input my own language using SCIM IME

3. Do you want to include all symbols from QWERTY-101 keyboard, namely: ~`!@#$%^&*()_-+=[{]};:'"\|,<.>/?
a) yes
b) no
c) mostly yes, without few of them...
(removed, because in fact everyone would want all punctuation symbols)

4. where do you want those symbols printed: !@#$%^&*() ?
a) top row 1...0 keys
b) the QWERTY.... row
c) in some other places around the keyboard (for example when Shift-Q=TAB, or an accented character goes to this row)
(removed - irrelevant)

5. Do you want to include F11 and F12 keys, somehow?
a) yes as Fn+number
b) yes as Fn+some other key
c) yes, no matter how
d) no

6. How do you want to access F1..F10:
a) Fn+number
b) Shift+number
c) as primary "white" key

7. Do you want to include those: PrtSrc, ScrollLock
a) yes
b) no

8. Do you want to include any of those: SysRq, Pause, Break
a) all of them
b) yes, only SysRq
c) yes, some of them
d) none of them

9. Do you want to include those: Insert, Delete, Home, End, PgUp, PgDown
a) all of them
b) some of them
c) none of them

10. How many characters/symbols on average do you feel, are allowed to be printed per single key (size of key is 8x8 milimeters which is about 0.3 inch).
a) 1
b) 2
c) 3
d) 4
e) 5 or more

11. Where do you want to have Alt, Ctrl mapped:
a) I prefer Alt,Ctrl as two buttons on bottom left ( <, and >. in original layout)
b) I prefer Alt,Ctrl as L/R shoulder buttons
c) I prefer Alt,Ctrl on Dpad or ABXY buttons
d) I prefer Alt,Ctrl somewhere else

12. Where do you want Fn button?
13. Where do you want Shift button?
a) bottom left (2nd row as in original proposal)
b) bottom left 1st row
c) bottom right
d) Dpad or ABXY buttons
e) L or R shoulder buttons
f) somewhere else
g) in two places (duplicated)
(12-13. removed - irrelevant)

14. Do you plan to use sticky keys input method? (So that you press Fn or Shift or Alt or Ctrl, release the button and it remains "pressed" so the next keypress will be with that button pressed, this allows pressing complicated combos like Ctrl-Alt-F1 by pressing just one button at a time)
a) yes, I like to press just one button at a time on, because the device is too small for multiple keypresses
b) I have high dexterity and I don't like sticky buttons - I'll turn off this feature and press all the buttons simulateneously
(removed - it's a software configuration)

15. do you want ESC as a first-class "white" key?
16. do you want TAB as a first-class "white" key?
17. do you want Backspace as a first-class "white" key?
18. do you want DEL as a first-class "white" key?
19. do you want Insert as a first-class "white" key?
20. do you want Ctrl and Alt as a first-class "white" keys?
21. do you want Shift as a first-class "white" keys?
a) yes, highest priority
b) yes, medium priority
c) yes, lowest priority
d) no
(removed 15-21 : all those keys are impornant, no reason to ask)

22. Finally - pick one of the final proposals submitted by everyone participating in this discussion
- 1...
- 2...
- 3...
- 4 ....
..... all the pictures from here go here, without the obsoleted ones (marked as REMOVED).


everyone please flame me about how stupid questions I proposed to put into the poll, and give suggestions to peca what is the best poll that he should do.

EDIT: strikeout some of them, that AireTamStorm doesn't like.
EDIT2: For easier reading set to bold questions that are not strikeout.

 

[TaG]

You missed one:

23. Do you still have the will to live
1) No
2) Yes but I never want to talk about keyboards again
3) oh sod it

Seriously, although there are 'interesting' questions there's just too many. Even once everybody has answered them all how would you decipher the results without have several 101 key keyboards?

 

[plopperz]

Well I'm making poll, but I'm only allowed 3 questions. Pick 3.

EDIT: Nevermind, this is just too damn confusing.

 

[cosurgi]

Cosurgi, please remove obsolete designs from voting. Ie all Kagato and me that evolve to final one.


Everyone - please send me PMs if you want me to remove your older/obsolete proposal from the keyobard listing.

 

[_VWV_]

You missed one:

23. Do you still have the will to live
1) No
2) Yes but I never want to talk about keyboards again
3) oh sod it

Seriously, although there are 'interesting' questions there's just too many. Even once everybody has answered them all how would you decipher the results without have several 101 key keyboards?

Yeah, the proposed poll is a bit toooo long. Chip has mentioned that it's nearly to useless to ask people whether they want cyrillic symbols printed on keys - only 3-5 people will answer positively. I can report this result beforehand. I think if we remove questions about alphabets the poll will get shorter. To print or not to print is for devs to think about. This is going to be their political decision .

 

[peca]

@peca I already made one blunder by creating this thread without a poll. I would feel better if someone else opened a poll. Since you have proposed to me to do this - you are the best candidate to do it yourself. Please open a poll if you feel up to the task. I don't...

OK, but I don't know if that complex vote can be established (it's more questionnaire then vote for the best ). What about simple:
1/ vote for template #1
2/ vote for template #2
...
N/ vote for template #N
X/ Put own design to thread or link to made by someone other.

I think that Moderators can gladly merge both keyboard thread.

This topic went off topic, and should probably be merged with the original. I don't know which one to post in anymore, as they both have the same content.

I guess it too.

 

[AireTamStorm]

One thing people kinda forget here- this isn't a democracy. While voting and community feedback are invaluable resources to the completion of this project, the heads behind it are going to make the most informed and logical decision possible.

I'm a firm believer in Wikipedia's principles- consensus over credentials. However, at one point in time the majority of the people on the planet were convinced that the Earth was flat. The scientific method is also flawed in the same way, with "This simplest explanation is most likely the correct one". The Earth seems flat, so it is flat. Saying something like "It is just so big you can't tell its not flat" didn't fly back then. Just going by consensus, or just going by credentials is often the wrong approach. As others have suggested, admittedly a vote wouldn't really say what would be the better decision. You can provide your input, be it logic or reasoning, experience or beliefs. It is up to the guys making this possible, however, to decide to use them or not. There is a very delicate balance between the two here, which is what makes the Pandora great.

You all know where I stand, I prefer software to get the job done and you've heard plenty of my reasoning.

Cosurgi, consolidate at least 75% of those questions.

Disclaimer: My opinion. Yours may differ:
Change 1 to "Secondary Characters". 2, everyone will want their own language. 3 = Punctuation, 4 is irrelevant. 5 is good, 6 is also irrelevant. 7 and 8 aren't nearly as important as 9, and can be done in software. 10 is a great statistic, but its questionable as to whether or not people will actually understand the implications either way. 12 and 13 is irrelevant, 14 is set via software. 15-21: You're asking if some of the most important keys on the keyboard are important or not. They ARE. 22, get a good list first.

 

[MilanC]

QUOTE

I think you can get away with one silent keypress without feedback, but any more and you risk losing track of where you're up to. 5 presses is way too many.

Of course five is too many; but that was an extreme exemple, for someone who would want to type in multiple accented languages. Instead, I'll use two different configs.
To limit keypresses, it might be nice to map Fn-Up to second accent set, instead of AltGr, and map AltGr to Fn-Alt. So even the 4 possibilites for letter "e" in french would require 2 presses, in the worst case.
QUOTE
It could maybe be done with a system-level screen overlay (for X apps, anyway) that displays the accent that will be applied...

What about fullscreen apps?
QUOTE
but I'm not sure it would work well, because not all accents can be applied to all characters. Your approach would require cycling through all possible accents (applicable or not), which could be more than 5 presses; and what happens if you type a letter that does't use the selected accent?


Just the usual thing...:
* In X11: just ignores invalid accent-character combination.
* In console I get things like ^+y=^y, while ^+e stays ê

 

[peca]

i confirm again SCIM is great on US layout ( i test it on French layout and have some surprises : the 'A' sound is on key 'Q' for example , i think SCIM work on Keycode and not Keysym , so need certainly a work on file config for Pandora Keyboard )

I can't quickly find how to type latin accented char by SCIM (yes, I found project site, but not found simple desription how to type). I you can explain it briefly, please.

In fact on a little device like Pandora the position of key is not a real problem : we can't type on it like dactylo , as french i prefer an US layout with dead key for accent ( ^`) and ( " ' , ) can be use for ( ¨ ´ ¸ )

Oh my, I found that exist 17 (!) diacritical marks or accents. Sure, any language don't use them all, but which put on keyboard?


I think, that what we need just now is good layout without exactly defined functionality, as functionality can be SW changed. As each language use different accents or none accents but different characters (Russian, Greek, Asians, Klingons, Atlantians...), I guess that labeling it on keys is not good idea. I believe that this allow as many ways of typing, as everybody can wish, and I guess that this is Kagato's layout. Little issue can be wifi switch on space, which is just next to Fn and can be very easily pressed. But it can be workaround as long press (about 3 seconds) and nobody switch wifi accidentally.

 

[cosurgi]

@AireTamStorm thanks for your analysis, I updated the poll questions. I hope That I did it as you meant it to be?

2, everyone will want their own language.
With this one I don't agree. In the discussion several people have said that English os not their native language and that they don't want to see their language special letters on the keyboard. I'm one of those guys. I don't want to see on Pandora keyboard those Polish letters: ąćęłńóśżź. And I don't want to see special letters from any other language.... So I would prefer to keep this question in the poll.

22, get a good list first.
I hope that people will PM me about which of their designs they wish to have removed. Then we will have a short and a final list of proposals.

 

[AireTamStorm]

@AireTamStorm thanks for your analysis, I updated the poll questions. I hope That I did it as you meant it to be?

Remember my disclaimer: Your opinion may differ. It does? Great.

In the discussion several people have said that English os not their native language and that they don't want to see their language special letters on the keyboard. I'm one of those guys. I don't want to see on Pandora keyboard those Polish letters: ąćęłńóśżź. And I don't want to see special letters from any other language.... So I would prefer to keep this question in the poll.

Thats some as good a reasoning as any.

I hope that people will PM me about which of their designs they wish to have removed. Then we will have a short and a final list of proposals.

Just remember, a poll isn't necessarily a be-all-end all, as I described in my little rant on philosophy above (bad habit of mine). Regardless, people lets get this done. This is an important topic, and it has been iterated that this is still up for debate. If YOU want YOUR design on the Pandora, this is your best chance. Throw the guy a bone.

 

[cosurgi]

Just remember, a poll isn't necessarily a be-all-end all, as I described in my little rant on philosophy above (bad habit of mine). Regardless, people lets get this done. This is an important topic, and it has been iterated that this is still up for debate. If YOU want YOUR design on the Pandora, this is your best chance. Throw the guy a bone.

yes, of course. We all know that it works this way.

I started receiving PMs about withdraws. There are currently only 13 proposals left. Since the maximum is 15 answers in a poll, it is theoretically possible now to make a poll. But there are 6 questions, while in a poll only maximum 3 are allowed. Perhaps a mod could create a poll with 6 questions? I'll ask Chip, because he was most involved in this discussion (and will probbaly decide to skip the 1st question ).

EDIT: Heh, I decided to strikeout 1st question, because it's a duplicate of 2c and 2d.
In fact if we must have only 3 questions I would put questions 2, 11, 22 into the poll...

 

[cosurgi]

2, everyone will want their own language.
Oh, I forgot one thing - If I remember correctly, you would pick answer (d) there B)