Keyboard Layout And Durability

[Gilrad]

As far as kanji is concerned, it is my experience that the vast majority of people I know who type in Japanese use SCIM input, typing in arigatou which becomes ありがとう which becomes 有難う。

In other words, direct character-for-character typing methods aren't incredibly necessary, at least as far as Japanese is concerned, but some form of SCIM is.

 

[Kings]

Try to keep in mind that the YABX buttons, d-pad, L&R triggers and the analog sticks will probably be program specific. Firefox might use L&R triggers for Back and Forward as an example.

 

[AireTamStorm]

As far as kanji is concerned, it is my experience that the vast majority of people I know who type in Japanese use SCIM input, typing in arigatou which becomes ありがとう which becomes 有難う。

Personally, I use SCIM + Anthy. That IME creams pretty much anything else I've used. 「蛇使いかよおまえ、 しばくぞコラ。」They did a neat update mid last year that basically could figure out whether I was really typing Japanese or just had the IME on by mistake. There had been similar features before, but nothing as robust. Currently it is the fullest featured IME I know of, where I can type names, kanji for places, and katakana-based words (scientific / english bleed) all in one sentence and the IME usually gets everything when you do the kana => kanji conversion.

 

[Mjlink]

I miss the days of MS-DOS and having to use ALT + # pad to get one of the 255 charachters.

You all are very stressed here.

How about a grafitti type input on the touch screen?

Just a suggestion.

IE. Type e with tap tap becomes e with an umlaut? Etc

Not a developer so I don't know how much of a Pipe dream this suggestion is.

Peace

Link

 

[Chip]

There have been a lot of compelling arguments here, but all of them fail at the most basic logical level. Compare the usability of the Anglo-centric simple layout to the complex international layout I proposed:

English-speaking users
Simple - All necessary characters present. Full usability out of the box.
Complex - All necessary characters present. Full usability out of the box.

Spanish, French, German, Turkish, and Russian (and all other Cyrillic alphabet languages) users
Simple - Characters missing. Will require custom key mapping and possibly stickers / re-labeling.
Complex - All necessary characters present. Full usability out of the box.

All other users
Simple - Characters missing. Will require custom key mapping and possibly stickers / re-labeling.
Complex - Characters missing. Will require custom key mapping and possibly stickers / re-labeling.


Result: An internationalized keyboard provides the best out of the box usability for the most users.


Remember that having all those extra characters does not in any way affect usability for English speakers. Don't need the alternate characters for your language? Then simply don't use them.

Remember also that all key maps are held in software and can always be changed. There is nothing preventing English-speaking users from re-mapping different characters to the positions of unneeded characters. If you have no use for Cyrillic or specially accented characters then you may map whatever you wish to those key combinations. You may also use stickers to mark those new characters, as you would have had to do with the simple layout. Users of different character sets will have to completely re-map the keypad and apply stickers, but that would be the case either way. You are right that you cannot possibly accommodate every language with so few keys. However, if you can accommodate several languages in addition to English without compromising English usability, why would you not do so?

Again I remind you that you lose nothing with an internationalized layout, but users from many countries will gain much.

I have made my case as best I can. The decision makers will choose whatever layout they feel is best.

 

[rasczak]

There have been a lot of compelling arguments here, but all of them fail at the most basic logical level. Compare the usability of the Anglo-centric simple layout to the complex international layout I proposed:

English-speaking users
Simple - All necessary characters present. Full usability out of the box.
Complex - All necessary characters present. Full usability out of the box.

Spanish, French, German, Turkish, and Russian (and all other Cyrillic alphabet languages) users
Simple - Characters missing. Will require custom key mapping and possibly stickers / re-labeling.
Complex - All necessary characters present. Full usability out of the box.

All other users
Simple - Characters missing. Will require custom key mapping and possibly stickers / re-labeling.
Complex - Characters missing. Will require custom key mapping and possibly stickers / re-labeling.

Result: An internationalized keyboard provides the best out of the box usability for the most users.


Remember that having all those extra characters does not in any way affect usability for English speakers. Don't need the alternate characters for your language? Then simply don't use them.

Remember also that all key maps are held in software and can always be changed. There is nothing preventing English-speaking users from re-mapping different characters to the positions of unneeded characters. If you have no use for Cyrillic or specially accented characters then you may map whatever you wish to those key combinations. You may also use stickers to mark those new characters, as you would have had to do with the simple layout. Users of different character sets will have to completely re-map the keypad and apply stickers, but that would be the case either way. You are right that you cannot possibly accommodate every language with so few keys. However, if you can accommodate several languages in addition to English without compromising English usability, why would you not do so?

Again I remind you that you lose nothing with an internationalized layout, but users from many countries will gain much.

I have made my case as best I can. The decision makers will choose whatever layout they feel is best.



Love you Chip.

I hope the devs will bring us a "complex" keyboard layout similar to some designs seen here and keys will have all the characters "writen" on them.

 

[cosurgi]

(..snip..)
I have made my case as best I can. The decision makers will choose whatever layout they feel is best.

Hi Chip,
There's no point in repeating all my argument over and over again. It's been said already I think that a voting pool would be quite a good solution, perhaps with following options:

1. keyboard from this rendering
2. proposal selected by you - Chip; please tell me which one you would like to put into the pool:
2a) first one (no cyryllic)
2b) second one, with cyryllic
2c) third proposal with cyryllic, revised by Hootcooler
3. a revised proposal from me - cosurgi.
4. maybe some more proposals submitted by other people here?

Chip, there are few technical mistakes with your layout (perhaps mine also has some), and they should be ironed out to make the keyboard usable. You will see them, when you will answer my questions (I hope that you will submit a revised version, which we will use for a voting pool). What keys do I press to obtain:
1. ctrl-alt-F1 (a typical combination in linux to switch between virtual consoles)
2. shift-F9
3. ctrl-alt-,
4. Ł (on polish keyboard it is AltGr-SHIFT-L), or ł (AltGr-L)
5. é, É (which collides with caps-lock)
6. caps-lock

And a list of missing keys: _ (I'm not sure if 'D' has _ on it), PgUp, PgDn, Insert, Home, End, LCD Brightness control, SysRq (useful for hacking), Pause, ~, `.

I hope that with a few more revisions we will have at least two serious (I mean: working and usable) proposals - that is yours and mine. Then people will be able to vote which one they want (devs are still silent, so here we are assuimng, that this discussion has any merit).

best regards

 

[CoMiKe]

This is another layout.

I won't be adding punctuation signs, as their position vary on every language keyboard layout.

Things that change against previous keyboard layouts are the ESC and Backspace keys.

For thumb typing, the best position for backspace is the CTRL key, as it's on the opposite side to the FN key.

EDIT: Added the ALT GR label.

 

[fusion_power]

Heheh, nice joke But We are trying to get some serious layout here <_< There are only 11 buttons on the top row. So you can't have both L2 and R2 without sacrificing either '1' or '0' :rolleyes:

Uh, i'm SURE that no PSX Game needs the 1 or 0 Keyboard Function Buttons. In Games/Emulators the Keyboard of course has no usage or it is mapped to Game/ -Program specific functions. AFAIK the whole Keyboard setting we discuss here is ONLY for the Menu, the OS or Writing-Software Amiga Emultion etc. The Buttons are not hard coded so every Key can be whatever the Application needs.
And when you start the PSX Emulator, the topleft and topright Keys become L2 and R2 -easy as pie. ^_^

 

[cosurgi]

This is another layout.

Thanks CoMiKe, this is actually a very nice minimalistic approach. Brings some fresh air here I only want to point out two small mistakes: It's impossible to press ctrl-backspace. Used to delete whole words, alt-backspace may be used also for something. Maybe in your design the best place to put backspace would be Fn+SPACE? And you missed the 'I' key

 

[Chip]

There's no point in repeating all my argument over and over again. It's been said already I think that a voting pool would be quite a good solution, perhaps with following options:

I don't know that a vote is entirely necessary, but my entry would have to be Hotcooler's design. I know some Russian characters are not frequently used, but I do not know which ones they are. When I laid out the Cyrillic characters, I did so based on the layout of the standard Russian keyboard, but I simply guessed at the "alternate" characters. Since Hotcooler speaks Russian, I trust his Cyrillic layout is much more efficient than mine.

1. ctrl-alt-F1 (a typical combination in linux to switch between virtual consoles)
2. shift-F9
3. ctrl-alt-,
4. Ł (on polish keyboard it is AltGr-SHIFT-L), or ł (AltGr-L)
5. é, É (which collides with caps-lock)
6. caps-lock

And a list of missing keys: _ (I'm not sure if 'D' has _ on it), PgUp, PgDn, Insert, Home, End, LCD Brightness control, SysRq (useful for hacking), Pause, ~, `.

It has been my assumption that all modifier keys (FN, shift, ctrl, alt) would be sticky keys. This has been the case on every thumb-typeable device I've owned, and many button combinations would be impossible without it. With sticky keys you would press the following for your examples ("," means the key is pressed and released. "+" means the two keys are pressed at the same time):
1. Ctrl, Alt, RT+1
2. Shift, RT+9
3. Ctrl, Alt, FN, Alt
4. FN, L could be made "Ł" and "£" could be moved somewhere else. There are still quite a few LT+key spaces open.
5. All accented FN characters would have their case changed by the shift key in the normal way. "é" would be FN, E. "É" would be shift, FN, E.
6. FN, Shift

"_", "~", and "`" are already accounted for. Their positions are LT+D, LT+A, and LT+R, respectively. The other functions could be mapped to any of the unused LT+key positions. Personally, I feel only the display brightness controls are really necessary. The others are merely convenience keys an their functions can be performed in other ways.

For thumb typing, the best position for backspace is the CTRL key, as it's on the opposite side to the FN key.

On all thumb-typable keypads I've ever used, FN has always been a "sticky" key. Backspace is used far more often than Esc, and therefore should be a "white" key and reside in its natural position.

 

[CoMiKe]

QUOTE
It's impossible to press ctrl-backspace. Used to delete whole words, alt-backspace may be used also for something.

I forgot about Ctrl+Bkspc, in fact. And I use it frequently. So that must be changed.

QUOTE
On all thumb-typable keypads I've ever used, FN has always been a "sticky" key.

Ok, so the FN key works as a dead key (like accents on the spanish keyboard). Interesting, didn't know that.

Then, as you've discussed previously, backspace being a Fn combination is a problem, actually. As you would have to press Fn, then Bkspc, for every character you want to delete (unless you hold the backspace key, but that's inexact on most cases).

 

[Chip]

QUOTE
It's impossible to press ctrl-backspace. Used to delete whole words, alt-backspace may be used also for something.

I forgot about Ctrl+Bkspc, in fact. And I use it frequently. So that must be changed.

QUOTE
On all thumb-typable keypads I've ever used, FN has always been a "sticky" key.

Ok, so the FN key works as a dead key (like accents on the spanish keyboard). Interesting, didn't know that.

Then, as you've discussed previously, backspace being a Fn combination is a problem, actually. As you would have to press Fn, then Bkspc, for every character you want to delete (unless you hold the backspace key, but that's inexact on most cases).

Sorry, I made some significant changes to my post that should clear all of this up.

 

[AireTamStorm]

This is another layout.

Loving the simplicity and clean look of it.

 

[CoMiKe]

Loving the simplicity and clean look of it.

Thanks, although perhaps it would be better to include punctuation signs, don't know.

Sorry, I made some significant changes to my post that should clear all of this up.

Ok, so if I'm not mistaken, and following the definitions from this Wikipedia table, the FN key would be a dead key, but not a lock key, isn't it?

If it's a dead key, then the FN key only affects the meaning of the next key or keystroke (like accent keys).

If it's a lock key, the FN key would affect all following key / keystrokes until the FN key is pressed again (like the Num Lock and the Caps Lock keys).

 

[TaG]

On all thumb-typable keypads I've ever used, FN has always been a "sticky" key.

Ok, so if I'm not mistaken, and following the definitions from this Wikipedia table, the FN key would be a dead key, but not a lock key, isn't it?
If it's a dead key, then the FN key only affects the meaning of the next key or keystroke (like accent keys).
If it's a lock key, the FN key would affect all following key / keystrokes until the FN key is pressed again (like the Num Lock and the Caps Lock keys).


Presumably FN key behaviour is set within software, and could therefore be modified by certain software or be user modifiable. One way would be single press = sticky, double press = lock.

 

[Chip]

On all thumb-typable keypads I've ever used, FN has always been a "sticky" key.

Ok, so if I'm not mistaken, and following the definitions from this Wikipedia table, the FN key would be a dead key, but not a lock key, isn't it?
If it's a dead key, then the FN key only affects the meaning of the next key or keystroke (like accent keys).
If it's a lock key, the FN key would affect all following key / keystrokes until the FN key is pressed again (like the Num Lock and the Caps Lock keys).


Presumably FN key behaviour is set within software, and could therefore be modified by certain software or be user modifiable. One way would be single press = sticky, double press = lock.


Everything keypad related should be modifiable in software. In my experience, it is usually set up so one press of FN enables the FN character of the next key pressed. A second press of FN disables this (in case you hit it by accident). Perhaps a press and hold could enable FN lock, though I cannot foresee many situations when you would want to use FN lock.

 

[Hotcooler]

Here's a pretty good examples how to map Cyrrilic chars to the small keyboard. (I owned G900 for some time.) And that layout is pretty good.

But since we have less keys... It will be rather difficuilt.

This is another example -

Another one -

And another closer one -

And another quite strange one -

 

[cb88]

Q: what language is this forum in?
A: english!!

im pro ALTGr + #

please don't clutter up the keypad those buttons really are small
while it would be nice for me to be able to type Portuguese characters directly i can get by with ALTGr + # as i believe most other can too

this is more an issue of usability over functionality ...what is the point in all the function if you can't use it...keep the keypad as simple as possible

also i think we should be careful of what we map to the dpad and buttons since those will likely have other functionality and are not part of the keypad

 

[fusion_power]

This is another layout.

Loving the simplicity and clean look of it.


True, clean and simple, not to colorful, nice.

Here's a pretty good examples how to map Cyrrilic chars to the small keyboard. (I owned G900 for some time.) And that layout is pretty good.

Please, NO cyrillic Letters onto the Keyboard, at least not onto the western sold Devices! I don't want such a whole bunch of extra Characters I personaly never need or use. It kills alot of the clean look.
...the blue Keypads of Pic 2 and 3 are nice by the way, I bet they are all backlit, something I will really miss onto the Pandora.