Keyboard Layout And Durability

[cb88]

@Chip could you make tab Fn + Q? the current position is rather a bad arangement esp if you tab compete much which will happen a lot since it saves keystrokes

@chad chill man obviously he know its not the *best* since it is a WIP i don't really care if Chip qualified his statement cause he trying to help in the first place ... you buried the good part of you post beneath a childish stab at Chip real smooth chad you just showed why some people don't like you... I'm not gonna say i don't like you because i don't really know you and you seem to have good intentions most of the time so peace man or whatever go read some xkcd that should cheer you up i especially like these http://xkcd.com/341/ they are epic ROFL material ...one morething ... how many hours do they put in chad?

 

[conso]

Nice mockup, chip, but I think you forgot, that fn + 0-9 should be F1-f10 (using ctrl or a trigger-button for this wouldn't work because of some games use crtl+0-9 for things like grouping and additionally f1-f12 for access to the menus)
I'd say every keycombination used to create special signs should make use of fn-key (since that is the only key not traditionally related to special operations [and trigger-buttons will most likely be used for other stuff inside the game]). we could map with fn+key. fn+shift+key. fn+ctr+key, fn+left-trigger+key etc.. everything without the fn-key would contain the risk of loosing functionality.

What about the three buttons between the analog nubs? are they so much dedicated to gaming we can't make use of them? It should be fine to use them as esc, tab and del, at least together with the fn-key

I still have the opinion that a fully-international keyboard will be inpracticable, unneaded and complicated. It would be better to just preconfigure localised key-mapping profiles and sell sticker-sets to mark the keys yourself. If a sticker get lost, you can buy a new sticker-set from your local pandora-dealer or maybe the sets could even contain some reserve-stickers....

What I like about your mockup are the ctrl+alt-keys. those should definatly go into the final design. hopefully together with dedicated tab+esc

 

[Chip]

I'm not saying your design is bad - it might be the best one we've seen for the Pandora. But what pisses me off is your arogance of saying it's "The best possible keypad labeling scheme." You really think you are qualified - not just to make that judgment (which you're not) - but to come up with it in just a few hours. Do you have any idea how much R & D companies put into keyboard layouts?

The goal was to match up as many characters as possible on the US, international, and Cyrillic keyboards. There is no perfect way to do that with so few physical keys to work with, but I believe I did as well as anybody could. Some compromises had to be made, and I chose to prioritize letters over punctuation marks.

If you feel you can do better, then by all means, go ahead.

Nice mockup, chip, but I think you forgot, that fn + 0-9 should be F1-f10 (using ctrl or a trigger-button for this wouldn't work because of some games use crtl+0-9 for things like grouping and additionally f1-f12 for access to the menus)
I'd say every keycombination used to create special signs should make use of fn-key (since that is the only key not traditionally related to special operations [and trigger-buttons will most likely be used for other stuff inside the game]). we could map with fn+key. fn+shift+key. fn+ctr+key, fn+left-trigger+key etc.. everything without the fn-key would contain the risk of loosing functionality.

What about the three buttons between the analog nubs? are they so much dedicated to gaming we can't make use of them? It should be fine to use them as esc, tab and del, at least together with the fn-key

I set up the F-keys in that manner because I wanted to have an FN-only layout in case the devs didn't want to rely on the trigger buttons. The only way to include all the necessary punctuation marks was to eliminate the F keys in that situation. True, there are a few games that make heavy use of the F keys, but things like "/" and ":" are a lot more important. In the case of a game that needs F keys, you could always just jave a separate key map using FN+numbers. I don't think there are too many game situations where you need access to shoulder buttons, F keys, and punctuation marks.

The three middle buttons are set up as per this thread. Or at least they're set as close as they can be.

 

[conso]

but I believe I did as well as anybody could.

sorry, but I don't think so. I'm pretty sure with some more hours of thinking about it and searching for design-issues almost everyone could have done a better design. I must admit, I think you found some good solutions, but as stated befor to the wrong question.

Do we really need a fully-internationalized keyboard? It doesn't anybody any good to have signs he will never need. Keyboards should be localized. If the devs and distributors won't do this (what would be the best solution but MAY be to expensive), we have to do this for ourselves.


BTW: did anyone actually talk to the distributors about this?

The keys are almost all the same size. It is very much possible to let them be localised without spending to much money for it. at least, localised buttons could always be sold as an add-on. internationalisation of a 43-button keyboard stinks

 

[Tinnus]

You know what? Just ship it with a sheet of colored stickers for all ASCII symbols and include an app for configuring the keys

 

[AireTamStorm]

Why not just use a SOFTWARE IME for localizations, and use those standard layouts? I really hope this thing packs all the language support in the book. It will be a huge drawback not having Japanese input support for me, (while other languages for others, of course) and pretty much any language is perfectly doable on X.

For Games? Couldn't care less.
Firefox? Couldn't care more.

I'm pretty sure there will be some kind of IME for various localizations included in the firmware. Everything on the keyboard itself should be limited to only the most common key presses, with all other options in software. This way, you don't alienate your audiences, and everyone gets what they want. It makes no sense for me to have half the alternate keypress characters on that layout. For others, I'm sure those are just as necessary as the question mark is to me. From my viewpoint, it makes zero sense to do that kind of labeling on the keys rather than use software to get the job done better.

I vote some kind of FN + IME Button rather than FN + half the crap on the keys as is.

 

[Gilrad]

I would also like to throw my weight behind IME software... Sure it's all open source, so theoretically it's just a matter of having somebody port it, but on the other hand, the issue is finding somebody to port it. IME is definately something that I really want to see in the P sometime close to release.

And I would have to agree with the questionable (hah) placement of the question mark. It would drive me NUTS if the thing wasn't either at the space or M key. I definitely think the keyboard should primarily be based around the standard international, and THEN given whatever extra characters that space allows. There's a difference between "doing your best" and letting a horribly irritating keyboard issue through the cracks as a "compromise".

Of course, sure there is the option of modifying the keyboard layout yourself, but you're getting into DIY modding territory there, and I imagine the vast majority of people who aren't tech savvy will just plain be annoyed at the bad keyboard layout.

 

[trooper]

I spent the last three hours laying out the best possible keypad labeling scheme
People wonder why I don't like you. You just showed why. You think in a couple of hours you can come out with "The best possible keypad labeling scheme." Who voted on that? Where is your award for that design feat?

Your design is *not* the best. I mean, you bury some of the most often used characters in any language - like the Question mark. ? - The FN of the C key? Seriously. That's the "Best possible" place for the ?. Why wouldn't it be closer to where it actually goes on a keyboard - like the M key?

I'm not saying your design is bad - it might be the best one we've seen for the Pandora. But what pisses me off is your arogance of saying it's "The best possible keypad labeling scheme." You really think you are qualified - not just to make that judgment (which you're not) - but to come up with it in just a few hours. Do you have any idea how much R & D companies put into keyboard layouts?

Any excuse to have a dig, A Chad ?.

Trooper

 

[peca]

This is boring. Every nation (IMO) have own standardized kbd layout. So, every representative incline se kbd layout from this perspective. Wasn't be better add only accent marks? I mean, why try add whole set of chars, when it is accessible by combination of accent and simple char.
Ok, not for all langs (with Greek, Russian and all Asians on mind), but most of these using latin chars.

 

[rasczak]

I spent the last three hours laying out the best possible keypad labeling scheme. We've had a lot of complaints about lack of non-english characters on the keypad, and considering that (on the renders at least) there is plenty of room for additional characters, I figured I'd take a crack at fixing it. Key positions are kept as close to original as possible. Alternate characters are laid out on each key in relation to the position of their activator key on the Pandora: Bottom right for FN, Bottom left for shift, Top right for right trigger, top left for left trigger.

The first layout only uses the shift and FN keys as alternate character keys. It has just about everything vital (I think) from the standard international keyboard. It should cover English, German, and Spanish:



The next one uses the right and left triggers for even more alternate character goodness. It has the full Cyrillic alphabet, plus a handful of additional characters from the French and Turkish keyboards. Ideally FN+right trigger would act as a "Cyrillic lock" so users of that alphabet wouldn't have to hold the right trigger the whole time. I don't speak or read Russian, so the Cyrillic layout may not be perfect. I tried to keep it as close as possible to the Russian keyboard.:


There are still nine regular keys and 8 number keys open for additional characters if necessary.



IMHO it looks great, I'm spanish and I think that besides some alternative chars would be better in other places this layout is good enoght for me.

 

[cosurgi]

I don't know what devs think about this discussion (could you tell us if this discussion has any merit?), but since it's going in the right direction - I've prepared a SCALE 1:1 Pandora model, just download it from this thread, print it, and try pressing buttons yourself. Then you can print it with another keyboard layout and check again how comfortable it is.

 

[Aries]

Personnaly, I would keep the layout as it is. The touchscreen could also be used to add accent on a letter. As a french when I write long text I add accent afterward, so the touchscreen would be pretty handy for that task. Let's say I want to change "e" for "é", a kind of popup could let me choose "é" or "è" when i touch the screen on that letter...just an idea.

 

[Hotcooler]

Wow. I wanted to ask about the size of keys to get somehow the Cyrillic keys on that. But If would be rather great to have them in stock. Or maybe it would be possible to produce stickers or even 2 types of keybord (Dont think it will happen though).
But I'd want to have Cyrillic layout on the keys. So atleast it will be cool to have an option to order keyboard stickers or something.

Cyrillic layout posted in this thread is pretty good. Exept I'd change some fn printed latters, to look like that (is due to the usage ratio) -

Or if it's hard to use alt and enter keys. It can be done in FN's but that letters are pretty useful. But not as useful as red ones on the main keyboard.

 

[atomicthumbs]

I spent the last three hours laying out the best possible keypad labeling scheme. We've had a lot of complaints about lack of non-english characters on the keypad, and considering that (on the renders at least) there is plenty of room for additional characters, I figured I'd take a crack at fixing it. Key positions are kept as close to original as possible. Alternate characters are laid out on each key in relation to the position of their activator key on the Pandora: Bottom right for FN, Bottom left for shift, Top right for right trigger, top left for left trigger.

The first layout only uses the shift and FN keys as alternate character keys. It has just about everything vital (I think) from the standard international keyboard. It should cover English, German, and Spanish:



The next one uses the right and left triggers for even more alternate character goodness. It has the full Cyrillic alphabet, plus a handful of additional characters from the French and Turkish keyboards. Ideally FN+right trigger would act as a "Cyrillic lock" so users of that alphabet wouldn't have to hold the right trigger the whole time. I don't speak or read Russian, so the Cyrillic layout may not be perfect. I tried to keep it as close as possible to the Russian keyboard.:


There are still nine regular keys and 8 number keys open for additional characters if necessary.



These are excellent! Witht he second one, I'll be able to type in fДux CУЯiГГic!

I think that the analog pads may seem a bit taller than they are due to the use of GIMP perspective on the renders. There is also a new nub anyway that may look slightly different.

I believe I remember reading that the area surrounding the nub where it moves will no longer be metal but it will have the 2 mm travel and be non-clicking.

I am sure at least a little thought went into making sure the lid would close and maybe even having a bit of clearance between nubs and screen in case someone gets eaten by Bowser and snaps the case shut real fast and hard.

whoosh is the sound of the joke flying directly over your head

 

[Hotcooler]

The inscriptions using faux cyrillic are usually perceived by native Russian Language speakers as being somewhat stupid and disrespectful towards Russian language and other languages using Cyrillic script

Actually I have no disrespectfull feeling. It's just that feeling like you see something written in you language with such a mess of mistakes so you'll break you mind trying to decrypt it

For example if you see something loke this "IБ ТНIБ ТЯIP ЯEДГГУ ИEСEББДЯУ ?" and dont know english and faux cyrillic - you're messed up. This is spelled like "ib tnib tyair yadggu iyesebbdyau" so you get the feeling And you'll never guess that this actually means "IS THIS TRIP REALLY NECESSARY ?" - transliterates to something like "из зис трип риалли несессари".

For me it's harder to understand than even leet.

Question: How can you tell an introvert from an extrovert at the NSA?
Answer: ˙sǝoɥs s,ʎnƃ ɹǝɥʇo ǝɥʇ ʇɐ sʞool ʇɹǝʌoɹʇxǝ ǝɥʇ 'sɹoʇɐʌǝlǝ ǝɥʇ uı (Using the Revfad algorithm)
Or: 'saoys s.hn6 R3HTO ayt te skool tJa^oJtxa ayt `sJote^ala ayt uI (using the Albartus USD algorithm)

OMG...

 

[cosurgi]

OK, if we are going to design a keyboard layout, first we need to have some design assumptions! It's not possible to design anything without knowing what to design.

I propose following design assumptions:

1. it's not possible to map all alphabets on 49 keys. We have to decide on something. Let's assume the most popular one: US layout
2. Pressing three very small buttons is difficult. So let's assume, that to obtain any characters only TWO buttons must be pressed at maximum.
3. Original layout has keys to control LCD brightness - let's not forget about them.
4. We cannot add or remove keys! That would be a hardware change.


Ad. 1: You don't even have all alphabets on a fullsized 105 keys keyboards! Instead give an "Fn LOCK" key, which with the stickers, will allow easy typing in alternative alphabets. So you can put stickers with kanji, cyryllic, or whatever.

Here's some VERY RUDIMENTARY layout proposal. Please download .xcf GIMP file and experiment on your own. It lacks INSERT, PgUp, PgDn keys, Home, End. And perhaps a few more. I did it using a very simple approach: take all the symbols from US keyboard, and put them as close as possible to the original location.

Posting new keyboard layouts is useful, but discussing about design assumptions will lead to good layout much faster!

 

[_VWV_]

I spent the last three hours laying out the best possible keypad labeling scheme.

Thanx for addressing this issue. My opinion is that it's impossible to make a proper cyliric layout that would be as good as the English one. I think you've shown us that it's possible to type in cyliric on the andora1: but if we take into consideration the size of the P and the fact that it would be hard to type even in English one would think that cyliric typing is kind of pointless. It won't be convenient to take notes in Russian nor will you be able to troll this forum in Russian (trolling implies quick typing). So yes, andora1: is quite flexible (to the extent that it might be possible to type in Chinese language ) but I foresee the andora1: to remain an English-speaking device for ever.
Edit: typo

 

[cosurgi]

@chip - you have added a lot of completely useless symbols (letters with accents? inverted ¿ ??). There's no point at all doing that. Instead the symbols that will be most often used should be added.

Ctrl, alt as separate keys is a good idea.

Cyryllic? Kanji? Calm down, it's only 49 keys, you can't do that. The "Fn LOCK" can serve that purpose, and stickers on the keys. Focus, please focus - I'm talking here about DEFAULT keyboard layout, not alternative layouts. You have designed a darn good ALTERNATIVE layout.

Back to the drawin board

 

[fusion_power]

I don't know what devs think about this discussion (could you tell us if this discussion has any merit?), but since it's going in the right direction - I've prepared a SCALE 1:1 Pandora model, just download it from this thread, print it, and try pressing buttons yourself. Then you can print it with another keyboard layout and check again how comfortable it is.


Not a good example for pressing buttons becase your unit is much to thick. You need the right thickness of the base (without the LID) to have a 1:1 feeling while holding the Pandora and test the buttons. It makes a big difference.

I don't care about the printing onto the Keyboard as long the Software itself support different letters of other Languages. So if we set the Pandora to "german" for example, the keys in combination with FN or whatever give Ä Ö Ü if you press A O U etc... same for other Language settings. So all the additional Labeling onto the Keyboard (Chips ideas) could be skipped becasue I KNOW, when I have the german language selected, I will get an "Ä" when pressing A+FN
Craigix once sayed "keep it simple" and this was Pandora releated. And such a heavy dense Printing onto the keys is not simple, it lacks ov overview and clearness. I recommend to keep a standard english Layout in one or 2 Colours only and not more than 2 or 3 labelings per button. Never forget: LESS IS MORE!

 

[AireTamStorm]

Am I the only one here that thinks having 4 functions to one key is by no means a good idea?