Is this a scam?

[Seamus]

We I guess we seem to have a situaion here. Half the punters are happy and half are not. I rest my "case" oh was that a pun?

 

[Binky]

In my book, a scam is a deliberate fraud. By that, the pandora project has never scammed anyone.


Sure, the customer service has been appalling at times (especially at OP Ltd. it seems) caused by a mixture of broken supply chains, financial problems, and being understaffed. Many people are still owed a pandora they ordered years ago, but real efforts are being made on all fronts to get them delivered, and this has always been true!


I agree that buy product - wait years - ? looks like a scam, but if you read this thread, and the official news posts, you will see that it isn't.


OP team is working very, very hard to keep this project afloat (and so ensuring that you either get your pandora or your money back!)


I have no reason to believe that ED, Craig or anyone else is dishonest, or caused the pandora production mess.


OPENpandora tells you some of what is going on inside the company, so don't look at it as if it were an opaque box with money going in

 

[Seamus]

There are a few scenarios here.


You have the people from the first batch with still no Pandoras.


The customers who received their machines (first batch) and developed faults,cracks cables etc.


The 7 day pandora (which I purchased and got)


The 7 day that took months to arrive (often faulty)


You have the upgrade machines and the 1ghz pandoras


A lot of us have faulty machines but reading the posts above nobody risks returning.


Customer service in any type of sale is paramount.

 

[jonny:Dumb]

I'm sorry but, I bought my Pandora more than two years ago(more like 2 and a half or three quarters), and now that I finally don't know what I would do with it even if I got it, I asked for my money back.


But I didn't get my money back, and I didn't get a Pandora, so I have to ask: is this a scam? Did I just give someone $375 out of the kindness of my heart?


thank you.

Hi


I am very sorry to hear about this case and be assured, your anger and frustration is understood (I have had enough money problems myself and).


I know excuses and explanations will not help you mutch, but I would be very happy if you would read the follwing understaning of the situation I have:


Craig is playing a game which i am sure you will understand as well as I do. After the first company in Texas (Circuit Co, also producing the Beagle Board) stopped producing boards for the pandora, Craig ran into heavy financial issues. Parts for over 700 boards (I don't remember the exact number) have been paid and also production of some of the boards have been paid. Since Craig has many customers he owes them a pandora or the money, he came into trouble: Part of the money is gone into parts and production worth quite a bit but no pandoras came out of it.


For now, this money is lost ( http://boards.openpa...why-not-sue-cc/ ). ED than took over and brought the production to Germany where it is running reliably (yet much more expensive). When ED was searching for investors (They want their money back some time with profit) he made a businesses plan saying that all the old pre orders will be fulfilled with new sales (This is expensive, a lot of the original money is still lost in Texas, it is not just the difference for production that has to be paid). So, ED is funding units for old preoders with his income from the Pandoras and running the shop with everything else he sells on www.dragonbox.de (<- former gp2x.de Source: http://boards.openpa...ne/#entry163785 ). So Craig gets free units from ED to send to his old customers. Upgrades (and maybe other things) keept craig liquid and he could refund some old preorders and send the units from ED to them (Although this was not working well, read the full topic above...).


Then the 1Ghz "scandal" came ( http://boards.openpa...rent-situation/ ). Now it looks like, Craig is in serous financial problems with his pandora company. So, until he gets the financial boost from the tax return, he is probably not very liquid right now. I assume he will be liquid in mid November again ( http://boards.openpa...ing-next-month/ ).


One reason he is not responding right now might be that he does not have the liquidity to refund you right now. "Craigs game" is waiting and see what you (and probably other waiting for a refund) are going to do. He has to refund when you thread him legally. To assure his Pandora company will not go bust (for whatever reason) he probably wants to wait until better times have come (and refund one after another in order to guarantee liquidity [this is very important for a company, at leas I learned so in school]).


Another reason for him to not respond could be that his E-Mail backlog is just to big and he has no time to respond to your request (A bit unlikely with all your effort to reaching him in my opinion).


Many of the members of this board (me included) are very sad about what happened and honestly, reading about people like you, waiting for such a long time and putting all the effort into getting a refund, really stings. This is not what we like to read, which does not make it less real. Sarcasm i a way of dealing with this. I am sorry for that and understand all the critics Seamus has expressed about sarcastic comments.

They really should stop these stupid replys to serious posts on these forums.


The thread eventually fizzles out because of the really childish


stupid remarks by some forum members.Have every right to be here so go on bury yer heads in the sand along with your


silly remarks .


Let us recap on the nightmare scenarios for this machine:


Money was taken in 2008 for the first batch machine, still over 300 orders not filled still case cable and physical build of machine issues


not good enough.


The case should have been made of brushed alumimiumn .(not crap plastic rubbish}


The first priority should have been the case this is still a major issue.


Nubs are still hit & miss


Why has this not been fixed.


The internal working board etc are ok. For a dream machine to be let down by physical build disaster is unforgivable.


Why are you pursuing new machines when these issues are not fixed?


The Pandora has been a nightmare machine for me


It is virtually unuasble whay am I not getting any answers??


Is everybody but a few of us looking at this like the Emperor,s new clothes.


Because money was lost at the beginning of this project it looks to get as much in as quick as possible


Pay for inferior device and shut up if it falls apart

Hi


Every flaw you mentioned is in fact fixed in the new devices, the new silver case is more sturdy, the broken nubs are long gone (Some user had problems with calibrating their nubs, that was more a software issue). ED was a little angered about your post, because the LCD cable where also a problem. That was fixed to, but as he mentioned a new patch of "the same cables", as the cable manufacturer calims, does not seem to be "the same". I think ED is pretty angry and will unleash his evilness (if it turns out the cable company produces old/less quality cables for the higher price) when the results form the laboratory are back he send the cable to. I also read somewhere that he will get other cables with an even more flexible material (so even better than the good cables from the cable company, of which none failed AFAIK).


I don't know who you ordered from or if you are entitled to replacements, but some parts are available here: https://www.dragonbo...placement-parts


To fix your nubs, i am afraid there is no other option but sending your Pandora to ED. I do not know how much this would cost. If you are entitled for an RMA, i think this is doable for free and other users have been very happy with the fixes ED made... (The only question right now is, will ED do repairs for you if you orderd form Craig??)


The reason there is no aluminum case is, that it would make it extremely hard to have build in WirelessLAN. I read somewhere on the forums here that a part of the aluminum case would have to be plastic and connecting aluminum and plastic in a seamless manner seems to be an art all by its own. One could now argument that the WLan is not working very well anyway, and indeed, some users would not mind having the option to buy an aluminum case even if they would completely loose the internal WLan (same the same problem with bluetooth?!). Others are happy with the WLan performance of their pandora and use it regularly (I think I read somewhere that the range is not the best...). Those would maybe not be so happy with an aluminum case...


Well, I am very sorry for both of you that thinks turned out to be not so good.


Hope my post helped to soothe the pain a bit...


Disclaimer: Although I am pretty sure that everything is more or less right, i do not want to be held responsible if i got something wrong. Naturally, everyone is welcome to correct me especially ED and Craig

 

[jonny:Dumb]

There are a few scenarios here.


You have the people from the first batch with still no Pandoras.


The customers who received their machines (first batch) and developed faults,cracks cables etc.


The 7 day pandora (which I purchased and got)


The 7 day that took months to arrive (often faulty)


You have the upgrade machines and the 1ghz pandoras


A lot of us have faulty machines but reading the posts above nobody risks returning.


Customer service in any type of sale is paramount.

There sure are people not risking the return, but with ED it seems to be a matter of time (again, i know... all this waiting :unsure: ):





I thing your case would fall into the categorry close to one hour since i do not know how long soldering the nubs on the board would take...

 

[EvilDragon]

Only more complex repairs (I.e USB broken, etc.) take longer.


Askarus is at my place every Friday now, and he fixes LCD Cables, Nubs and broken cases.


So no long waiting time in that case.


I'm also catching up more and more with work and the emails are moved to a ticket system to be able to reply faster (with multiple people working on it).


I'm not yet there with catching up with work, but it slowly gets better each day.


And yes, I also do Craigs RMAs.

 

[notaz]

Just a little story of my retro experience.


Started off with a zx81 in the eighties (kit you built yourself)


Upgraded to spectrum 16k


Upgraded to spectrum 48k


Upgraded to spectrum 128k +2


Amiga 500


Amiga 600


Amiga 1200


Gp2x Wiz Gameboy Gameboy color ds and various tiger handhelds


Now the Pandora was purchased to relive these machines so you can see how it has not lived up to its promise.

No I can't.


You mention nubs having problems (for you?) but those are not needed at all to emulate the machines you listed. You also listed things like remaining preorders from 2008 and some people receiving faulty units but that has no effect whatsoever on your ability to use your unit. So is the case quality that's preventing you using it? Totally unclear.

 

[quartercast]

Maybe a mod can take the time to collect all the relevant information and post it in a sticky, including:


• Reasons behind all delays so far


• Number of Pandoras already shipped


• Approximate number of Pandoras waiting to be shipped


• How to speed up your order or someone else's order (if you can afford to be generous)


• Recommendations on where to order a new/used Pandora


• Recommendations on where to send repairs (yes Seamus we do send our units for repairs, I've had mine repaired twice)


Ed and Craix have made informative posts so far but they are dotted around in different threads, there really needs to be a sticky in the general section with this basic information which we can just point users to.


This is not a scam. By paying for a unit you are funding the production and development of a unique indie console, created by a skeleton crew of devoted people who are basically working for nothing. Frankly I'm appalled by some of your allegations and language Seamus, I think people on this board are being more than accommodating towards you.


Peace out.

 

[Seamus]

i did not have problem with the nubs,I can use it ok.


the problem with mine is the cracks.


I can stil use it. The bottom cover has the clips broken,and the case iis cracked beside usb socket


I do not want to send it back.


What I meant was all the problems with nubs cases and cables still were not sorted


for other owners


My machine works fine I am sorry about the money problems Craig is having.


If my case was not cracked I would be very impressed with machine.


The Amiga emulation is near perfect

 

[Link]

^


I've rarely seen a black case that was used for any significant gaming that didn't crack somewhere. Seems like they were all destined to crack in time.

 

[PowerGod]

^


I've rarely seen a black case that was used for any significant gaming that didn't crack somewhere. Seems like they were all destined to crack in time.

Hey, don't bring bad luck !! My black case is still intact !! :angry:

 

[WizardStan]

Mine are still crack free as well. The one doesn't get any practical use though, so hard to count it.

 

[quartercast]

My third Black case CC Pandora has no cracks. Really happy with the unit, thanks ED

 

[bismuthdrummer]

Anyway, perhaps you weren't scammed, but I felt that I was. You're in no position to tell me otherwise.


You're speaking of zero awareness on the customers' side, but are the company staff aware about the status of their own project?

I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Seamus.


I had a general statement in there about customers like him who make angry posts with questions that have already been answered over and over ad nauseum. If you do this then you do deserve to be chided; it wastes everyone's time to repost questions that have been addressed in the news or in other threads.


It looks like you extended my awareness criticism to all customers, and I did not infer or imply this.


I am sure you are right, OPT has organizational problems. I understand the answers are not all in a convenient location, but it doesn't take a genius or forum junkie to browse the news announcements or utilize the Search function and get some answers.


The difference is, A ) There are 4 of them and many more of us. And really only 2 around to answer questions. So how hard is it for us to find answers in comparison to them answering every repeated question?


And B ) They don't make near to the same ridiculous posts (well, not usually). And when I see it, I treat them just the same. There's just a lot less stinky diaper cleanup because they have a reason to be intellectually responsible. They make a lot fewer ad hominems.

 

[Seamus]

eh?

 

[sswam]

Yeah, so we learned that supporting a start-up company with no previous manufacturing experience is risky.


Don't tell me you didn't know that already... well now you know!


Anyone who pre-ordered was absolutely gambling that the company would be a success.


It almost wasn't a success, but somehow is continuing in spite of various setbacks.


I do feel sorry for the people who pre-ordered and still don't have a Pandora,


and I feel sorry for Craig and ED who have to endure that weight on their shoulders.


That's why among others I'm donating a chunk of the money I earn each month,


to help clear the pre-order queue.


Would the Sony, Nintendo, or Microsoft gaming community help one another like that?


I don't know, but we do here. Be happy.

 

[differentSmoke]

In my book, a scam is a deliberate fraud. By that, the pandora project has never scammed anyone.

I asked for a refund, I was told a refund cheque had been sent. Looking at the stories on this forum now I have every reason to believe this was never the case. THAT was a deliberate fraud. If they had told me "we cannot pay you back at this moment" I would've been fine with it. But flat out lying to me is not ok, as I have no reason to believe they are doing it out of "necessity" instead of just tryng to keep my money.


edit: oh, and as the original complainant on this thread, I would appreciate it if we kept comments on the physical thing off the discussion. This is only about the way business is being handled. I paid this sum with a complete acknowledgement that it could take a very long time, I do not feel ripped off by the amount of time it has taken nor would I feel ripped off by getting a substandard(asides from obsolete) product. This doesn't mean I am happy about the way things have been handled, it doesn't mean I'm not critical of the project and, had I known it was going to be like this, I would've NEVER invested my money on it. Still, none of that makes me feel ripped off or scammed. But the way this refund has been handled for the first time made me suspect that this company is not as well meaning as i always assumed it to be. You just don't flat out lie to your customers.

 

[Binky]

I was told a refund cheque had been sent. Looking at the stories on this forum now I have every reason to believe this was never the case. THAT was a deliberate fraud.

I think an official reply would be nice here - have you tried chasing delivery people/ the post office about this?


surely there would be a record of such a thing being sent...?

 

[ZXDunny]

A refund cheque? That sounds very dodgy - given that we were asked to pay by bank transfer, I'd have thought that the easiest (and let's face it, most secure) method of refunding monies would be a similar operation - unless the OP actually requested a cheque, of course...


D.

 

[differentSmoke]

I think an official reply would be nice here - have you tried chasing delivery people/ the post office about this?


surely there would be a record of such a thing being sent...?

No, I haven't, nor I think I could. I'm in the US, the cheque was mailed from the UK. If it had gotten here I would've received it a while ago.