Is the Pandora's ABXY layout confusing?

[God Ginrai]

This topic is the directly related to action button label, since if action button labels didn't exist, this own would never exist. And this topic are made to respond to one of the main question of labelling issues, so YES it is pertinent to talk about how much it can contribute to the main question which is whether or no we should change labels.

And if you can't get it, I don't care.

 This topic is directly related to the Pyra. If there was no SoC, there would be no Pyra, and therefore this topic wouldn't need to exist. Therefore, by your reasoning, YES it is pertinent to talk about the AllWinner A80 in this topic.

I called you a troll because you intefere in a discussion which is off-topic and that I tried to stop. Nobody care about what you think about whether or not I am right in this off-topic subject, and by interfering, you feed the off-topic. That's what I call Trolling.

 Calling people who don't agree with you trolls is hardly a way to stop a thread of conversation. I simply explained to you that WizardStan was interested in gathering information about Neelix's proposed Label-confusion issue, since you did not seem to understand it. (In fact, it seemed to me that you were including WizardStan among the trolls, however I can't be sure of that) Explaining to you the purpose of the topic is hardly an off-topic discussion.

We aren't in a war, we (at least me) try to find the best solution for the Pyra.

Divide and Conquer is not only used in wars. It is used all the time in computer science and many other fields. It is a problem-solving technique.

-God Ginrai

 

[Kiga]

we (at least me) try to find the best solution for the Pyra.

You're not trying to find anything, you've already stated without question that Greek is the best. Fine, Greek is the best, whatever, who cares. I wanted to know whether the arguments that other users presented, people who are not you, with respect to confusion between keys and buttons held any water.
I'm sorry you don't think there's any use in knowing this. Since you have no interest in actually engaging in the intended discussion why don't you just dip off to one of the other four threads where you can rattle off your ideas again, please.

Yes Greek is the best that I can see now, but that doesn't mean that nothing better exist, and maybe someone have an argument that I didn't think about. So you should talk for you and ask politely when you want to know what someone is thinking.

And don't worry I don't really care about this thread as I said I

haven't much to say about it anymore, since ED read my arguments.

I was just trying to unmask your

fallacious method to reduce anti-Latin argumentation to "people will confuse buttons".

untill a bunch of Troll attack me because I was disarming their trap.

 

[_wb_]

(X) NextPage (Y) PrevPage R Reply D Delete U Undelete X eXpunge
(A) FirstPg ( LastPg F Forward C Compose A Apply B Bounce

Do you still think trial and error is good enough? Even if "error" means you may be accidentally removing stuff or doing similar irreversible damage?

Very specific scenario. Anyway, I wouldn't even program it to X it should have been E. I mean why


use keys base on the name, but then change that for X? At least this would be a simple change in software

vs having weird symbols.

I dunno, I used the same shortcuts as Alpine.

Let me give another hypothetical but plausible example.

Many applications use CTRL-PgUp / CTRL-PgDn to switch between tabs (e.g. browsers, terminals, etc).

Many applications use CTRL-X for cut (and CTRL-C for copy, CTRL-V for paste).

On the Pandora/Pyra, we have the X button instead of PgDn and the Y button instead of PgUp.

What is the proper way to explain these shortcuts?

Press CTRL-[X] for next tab and press CTRL-X to cut?

Push [R1+X] for next tab and type CTRL-X to cut?

Press the CTRL-X button for next tab and press the CTRL-X key to cut?

Now try saying any of those over the telephone.

 

[WizardStan]

disarming their trap

What trap? Neelix and _wb_ said something, I was confused by what they said, I created a poll to see if there was anything to what they were saying. There's no trap here, no hidden conspiracy, I honestly, legitimately, 100% this and only this wanted to know if people really did have a problem with two buttons on the Pandora with the same label. That's it, no hidden agenda I swear.

 

[God Ginrai]

Many applications use CTRL-PgUp / CTRL-PgDn to switch between tabs (e.g. browsers, terminals, etc).

Many applications use CTRL-X for cut (and CTRL-C for copy, CTRL-V for paste).

On the Pandora/Pyra, we have the X button instead of PgDn and the Y button instead of PgUp.

What is the proper way to explain these shortcuts?

Press CTRL-[X] for next tab and press CTRL-X to cut?

Push [R1+X] for next tab and type CTRL-X to cut?

Press the CTRL-X button for next tab and press the CTRL-X key to cut?

Now try saying any of those over the telephone.

Press CTRL-PageDn for next tab and press CTRL-X to cut.

etc.

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

Many applications use CTRL-PgUp / CTRL-PgDn to switch between tabs (e.g. browsers, terminals, etc).


Many applications use CTRL-X for cut (and CTRL-C for copy, CTRL-V for paste).


On the Pandora/Pyra, we have the X button instead of PgDn and the Y button instead of PgUp.


What is the proper way to explain these shortcuts?


Press CTRL-[X] for next tab and press CTRL-X to cut?


Push [R1+X] for next tab and type CTRL-X to cut?


Press the CTRL-X button for next tab and press the CTRL-X key to cut?


Now try saying any of those over the telephone.

Press CTRL-PageDn for next tab and press CTRL-X to cut.


etc.

-God Ginrai

Well if you're going to call the button PageDn, then  it does not really matter what its label is, does it?

Or do you mean: if your application uses the corresponding keyboard key, you have to call the action button PageDn, but if it doesn't, then you can call it X?

 

[God Ginrai]

Well if you're going to call the button PageDn, then  it does not really matter what its label is, does it?

Or do you mean: if your application uses the corresponding keyboard key, you have to call the action button PageDn, but if it doesn't, then you can call it X?

No, I meant that there is a fundamental difference between an application and a game. Applications have key combinations. The key combination is CTRL-PageDn, hence, that's what you should call it.

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

Well if you're going to call the button PageDn, then  it does not really matter what its label is, does it?


Or do you mean: if your application uses the corresponding keyboard key, you have to call the action button PageDn, but if it doesn't, then you can call it X?

No, I meant that there is a fundamental difference between an application and a game. Applications have key combinations. The key combination is CTRL-PageDn, hence, that's what you should call it.

-God Ginrai

Games don't use button combinations? :blink:

 

[God Ginrai]

Well if you're going to call the button PageDn, then  it does not really matter what its label is, does it?

Or do you mean: if your application uses the corresponding keyboard key, you have to call the action button PageDn, but if it doesn't, then you can call it X?

No, I meant that there is a fundamental difference between an application and a game. Applications have key combinations. The key combination is CTRL-PageDn, hence, that's what you should call it.

-God Ginrai

 Games don't use button combinations? :blink:

They do. You were giving an example for an Application. For an application, it is perfectly fine to refer to the button as the keypress it generates. Otherwise, you wouldn't be saying "CTRL-[X]" in your example, you'd be saying "[L]-[X]" or similar.

-God Ginrai

 

[Kiga]

Control is a a real button made especially for button combinaisons which was combined with L because Pyra isn't a fullsize computer. Page down is what X do when you aren't in a game. So it isn't a real button and it wasn't made for combinaisons.

It can't be compared with Ctrl.

So yes, if you're going to call the button PgDn , no matter what label.

 

[TrashyMG]

Control is a a real button made especially for button combinaisons which was combined with L because Pyra isn't a fullsize computer. Page down is what X do when you aren't in a game. So it isn't a real button and it wasn't made for combinaisons.

It can't be compared with Ctrl.

So yes, if you're going to call the button PgDn , no matter what label.

 

The Pandora and most likely the Pyra's shoulder buttons are CTRL and SHIFT. many games directly ported will detect them as just CTRL and SHIFT.. However our version of SDL library does some mapping that equates the shoulder buttons to the L and R buttons as well as the face buttons to corresponding letters.. however many games and quick ports don't make use of it as the developer/porter needs to use those specific keycodes.

 

[Yoyobuae]

[...]
Now try saying any of those over the telephone.

Person A: To switch between tabs press control chi

Person B: Which one was chi again?

Person A: The one that looks like an X

Not sure if that works any better.

 

[levi]

FWIW, my argument isn't that I get the buttons mixed up, although I occasionally do in apps, but rarely in emulators as I'm familiar with the emulated layout.


I suppose my argument has no real relevance to this thread, but I'm stating it because I can, and if enough people like this post to agree, maybe I'll make a thread.


Anyway, my argument is the locaton of the A button is awkward, and we've landed up with native software that uses A, B and X for the main button. It both is a minor irritant when starting a game and it takes you up to three attempts even to get past the menu, and also just generally disappointing that we still haven't settled on what should be the main button, with even different new games released today using different conventions.


If you don't agree, fine, I really don't mind. I am not offended by the A button that much that I'll go on a trolling rampage if nobody agrees with me. So just ignore this post if you disagree, but if you do agree that the A button is not ideally located, please hit the like button (or the circled tick if you're using the mobile site).

 

[God Ginrai]

Control is a a real button made especially for button combinaisons which was combined with L because Pyra isn't a fullsize computer. Page down is what X do when you aren't in a game. So it isn't a real button and it wasn't made for combinaisons.

It can't be compared with Ctrl.

So yes, if you're going to call the button PgDn , no matter what label.

You have no idea what you are talking about. The shoulder buttons are treated the exact same way as the face buttons by the OS. They register keypresses. As TrashyMG pointed out, Notaz's SDL adds a layer that allows those who use his SDL to look at them as actual game button presses rather than keypresses.

-God Ginrai

 

[Natsu]

Anyway, my argument is the locaton of the A button is awkward

Yeah. I wanted the layout to change to this


   Y


X    B


   A

Especially when it looks better when you add C and Z as buttons.

      Z

   Y    C


X    B


   A

It was a close third in one of the polls and apparently God Ginrai found a way to make it work.

/off-topic

 

[TrashyMG]

It was a close third in one of the polls and apparently God Ginrai found a way to make it work.

Don't get your hopes up, God Ginrai isn't a member of the design team and hasn't seen any of the case or PCB design work. There is things to consider, like were the speakers are and where screw holes need to be and what may be on the PCB itself.

 

[God Ginrai]

It was a close third in one of the polls and apparently God Ginrai found a way to make it work.

Don't get your hopes up, God Ginrai isn't a member of the design team and hasn't seen any of the case or PCB design work. There is things to consider, like were the speakers are and where screw holes need to be and what may be on the PCB itself.

My solution doesn't suggest going in either of those directions. I do admit I am not part of the design team, but I am trying to suggest solutions, and the only reason we haven't confirmed these solutions is because EvilDragon has not responded to my posts about it.

I would be perfectly happy to discuss this with Nikolaus, if he would jump into one of these topics and discuss it with me. (Or PM me if he'd rather do it outside of a topic)

-God Ginrai

 

[Kiga]

You have no idea what you are talking about. The shoulder buttons are treated the exact same way as the face buttons by the OS. They register keypresses. As TrashyMG pointed out, Notaz's SDL adds a layer that allows those who use his SDL to look at them as actual game button presses rather than keypresses.

Maybe but:

You said:

They do. You were giving an example for an Application. For an application, it is perfectly fine to refer to the button as the keypress it generates. Otherwise, you wouldn't be saying "CTRL-[X]" in your example, you'd be saying "[L]-[X]" or similar.

If we refer to L by saying CTRL, it's because CTRL is usually used like this (ctrl+ ), so you can't compare it with Pgdn.

 

[God Ginrai]

You have no idea what you are talking about. The shoulder buttons are treated the exact same way as the face buttons by the OS. They register keypresses. As TrashyMG pointed out, Notaz's SDL adds a layer that allows those who use his SDL to look at them as actual game button presses rather than keypresses.

Maybe but:
You said:

They do. You were giving an example for an Application. For an application, it is perfectly fine to refer to the button as the keypress it generates. Otherwise, you wouldn't be saying "CTRL-[X]" in your example, you'd be saying "[L]-[X]" or similar.

 If we refer to L by saying CTRL, it's because CTRL is usually used like this (ctrl+ ), so you can't compare it with Pgdn.

I can. I said that if you were going to refer to one button as the keypress it generates (referring to L as CTRL) when describing a key sequence, then it only makes sense to refer to the other one by the keypress it generates as well. (referring to X as PageDn) Otherwise, it would be more correct to refer to them both as the buttons that they are, which is where I showed that his example would actually have to be "[L]-[X]".

-God Ginrai

 

[Kiga]

Well, it is a way of seeing things, but you said:

Otherwise, you wouldn't be saying "CTRL-[X]" in your example, you'd be saying "[L]-[X]" or similar.

If we don't say [L] it's because Ctrl: Control are usually used for combinaisons. The reason L was named Ctrl is because on normal computer there is a Ctrl button (and it is treated as ctrl by the computer). The reason Pgdn was named like this isn't the same and the and there isn't any Pgdn button on a normal computer. That's why _wb_ used Ctrl because this name correspond to that exclusive use (combinaisons) while the name Pgdn correspond to the usage of indicate to the user that X make the page down.