Instant Pandora with a premium?

[Mr_Loon]

Well Craig that's quite a conundrum you've put to the community.


It's hard to answer without some clear figures, any chance you could let us know what you would charge a customer to have their '7 Day Pandora' delivered, in Pounds sterling & Euros as well. My guess is that $500 is the price you'd pay in the US to have your Pandora delivered there. What I'm not sure of is the UK / European cost when you include VAT. If you want a productive debate then please let us know these costs as well.


It's very disappointing that you feel this step is necessary as history shows that production & parts costs for electronic goods tend to fall over extended time frames. However it is appreciated that it's you that knows the true costs and history is best used as a general guide rather than an unbreakable law when making business decisions.


As for community investment, I'd really appreciate some idea if this is likely to go ahead as I've put some money aside for this purpose. My personal hope is that it will.


Right, enough preamble, here is what I would do :


1) Don't concentrate on getting the units out ASAP, concentrate on getting them out as high quality as possible, take the time to make sure the buttons are not squishy, the stylus does not stick, the shoulder buttons work etc. Get the number of returns down to an absolute minimum. If you plan to be charging a premium price in future then make sure the units are of premium quality.


2) Fulfil the existing orders at the existing costs.


3) After producing the currently ordered units start charging a market price for Pandoras to be despatched within 7 days.


I'm pretty uneasy about the $500 instant Pandora for several reasons the main one being that I doubt this custom model would be ready any time in the near future, might even take up to 2 months, by the time it is ready then surely most existing orders should have shipped anyway.

 

[Gryfie]

If we do this you will get your batch1 unit *faster* than if we didn't because we can build more extra units per day than we will sell via the $500 price.


...


We're, as I've already said, trying to ramp up production as fast as we can now things are flowing.

If you


a) use unsold 2nd batch units, with parts you have already in the house,


B) enable 1st-batch-users to speed it up.


c) but only for the amount of devices you can produce more then before


d) raise the price for further 2nd batch orders to somewhat below the "7days-Pandoras"


would be ok for me

 

[gadgetoid]

Lots of people getting very childish here because they don't seem to realise that they have been lucky that the project has made it this far.

Indeed. The psychology of someone getting their shiny new toy before we get ours is certain to bring out the inner child. It's irritating, but on the flip side it's also, potentially, a very good plan which will see us getting our Pandoras sooner.


I, for one, support any initiative which will see me getting my Pandora sooner. Particularly if it doesn't involve me spending any more money to make it happen. Who knows, one of those $500 7-day Pandora buyers could be a developer, who will bring out something we'd all appreciate. With the kind of bank to just buy a $500 Pandora off the cuff, they're probably not likely to be a whiny teenage nuisance who doesn't contribute to the community and wants ROMs and wants them yesterday.


People need to focus on the positives, which Craig has clearly explained god-knows how many times, and quit with the childish "omg they're getting it before me waaah waaah" mentality.


1) People. Your Pandora will still have "First Batch" written on it.


2) If this works (which it should) you will get it sooner.


3) You don't have to spend any money to make no. 2 happen.


4) Every new Pandora owner enriches the community as a whole, and every penny gives OpenPandora a little more room to breathe, not to mention spend time working on the software!

 

[Dead1nside]

Craig, I'm not sure how wise it is to be thinking about this potential of a Pandora in 7 days when you've not announced the arrival date of the remaining batch 1 cases nor the new estimates from the board company.


If I could pay a bit more for my Pandora in a couple of weeks, rather than potentially a couple more months or longer, yes I would. But it does leave a bitter taste in my mouth. Yes I want OP to succeed, and I believe that you've worked hard; I'd like to hear what MWeston, EvilDragon and Fatih have to say on it.


I also believe that you need to draw up more details as I'm still not 100% sure what you're proposing. Can Batch 1 orders pay more to get their unit faster, and those who don't will be further back in the queue (but potentially wait less time, due to increased funds for manpower)? Like others have said, what are those details for UK/EU people who've paid where VAT is a factor?

 

[Emnasut]

@Craigx


I don't want to pay less for my Pandora than it cost you guys to build it, that just doesn't feel right (enriching myself on your loss), no matter what was set as price when I ordererd. Therefore I want to pay the difference plus whatever you set as your profit margin, that only seems fair. If this speeds up me getting my Pandora (with or without any special sticker, color or whatever) and everyone elses in the process then that would be a cool bonus.


So short answer: I think it's a good idea. Everyone will get their Pandoras faster with some getting them even fasterer (yeah that's a made up word ^^) and most important of all, you guys make a profit from your hard work!


Now, I am a late first batcher, only been waiting since April 2010, so some of you who don't like to be passed by someone who hasn't waited as long will propably see this as a cheap attempt to jump the queue by someone with lots of money. I guess I can't say anything to dissuade them from their opinion (and no, I don't just have a lot of cash). I just don't like getting more than giving on the cost of someone elses loss, even more in this case where the OPT didn't know what difficulties lied ahead when they started out.


Like always, just my humble opinion. Please feel free to point out anything inappropriate or stupid I said.


- Emnasut

 

[CapcomSuicide]

Craig, do whatever you have to do in order to keep afloat & have the capital to continue to invent new stuff.


Ebay/Premium/refurbs anything you can to try and go into the black.


My second Pandora is about 3800 in line, and i'd rather wait an extra month for it, if that means the OP team will have the money and motivation to consider a new project.


People will complain, just take it on the chin. If they think they can do better, then fine. What would they prefer, an email saying that either we pay some more for our existing order, or the project goes bust?


Do what it takes to succeed, and selling some premium painted units in a situation where you are losing money to deliver a community dream is a perfectly OK thing to do.


C_S

 

[leathco]

Id go ahead and pay 500, but Id like to have a few options to choose from as far as color. Maybe have red, blue, and dark grey?


I plan on ordering Feb 4th when I get my tax check, are there a few batch 2 slots remaining?

 

[Sugar_Kane]

First of all calling people childish is just not called for. We can all talk this through without degenerating into internet name calling.


The fact is that some of us have waited a long time, and we've agonizingly watched and waited through the delays and hiccups for months on end, you can't go through that without feeling some kind of emotional attachment to this project, so tempers will be high.


personally I think it should have been $500 from the start, but that's beside the point. I really don't have any issue about the price change, my personal issue is with the queue jumping, you won't understand this if you haven't been waiting so there is no point in trying to reason with this reaction.


The reason I brought up that there might be delays is not because I think that OPT want to delay the project at all, but I was just concerned that should there be any more unforeseen disasters in the shipping/making of any of the components and extra units have been sold then there will undoubtedly be longer waits for those unlucky enough to have not received theirs yet.


Anyway, like I said I'm equally torn between wanting the best for OP and my concerns about the first batchers.

 

[tsh]

If I could pay a bit more for my Pandora in a couple of weeks, rather than potentially a couple more months or longer, yes I would.

The point is that you are not being asked to pay 'a bit more'. I'm guessing you're at the end of batch1 or batch2 if you are expecting a 2 month wait. That means 2000 more to build before you get one. Say they sell 200 at $500 which would have been part of batch 2. That's $40k which could probably cover 2 extra heads at Craig's for 2 months, and a couple of night shifts at CC. That might feasibly result in an extra 500 units shipping within 6 weeks. Hey presto, your 2 months is now shorter by 6 weeks at no cost to yourself.


Anyone who thinks that 500 units are going to sell in a week at $500 (which would have an impact on the short term delivery of batch 1) is not very in touch with reality. I guess maybe 10 people who posted on this thread might?

 

[Wootson]

In the first few years of any company, surviving is the main goal. Especially for OpenPandora, this must be a very hard thing nowadays, between all the other companies that have their fair share of devices out there. During 2011 and 2012 we are going to see more and more niche devices, which eventually might become a serious threat to the Pandora. Although the Pandora still is very special today, unlike some other people claimed here on the boards.


If I see what some companies are charging for a fairly simple netbook or tablet (which can never be as portable as the Pandora), the Pandora could (in theory) easily survive at a slightly higher price. For €330, it is (in my opinion) nicely priced, and people should not complain for what they get. Truly portable PCs in the same sort of casings like the Pandora, would be sold by a company like Sony for €2000+! I don't know the model names of those devices anymore, but they ran Windows XP and looked about the same, with a slide-out LCD screen, but without gaming controls.


True, a Caanoo can be bought for €125, and is also a very nice device. But let's not forget that the Pandora is far and beyond the capabilities of this machine. The Pandora truly is a portable Linux machine and a gaming console in one. And the 3D functions of the Pandora will not be a limit to anyone of the community, unless they are called Square Enix.


My aunt bought herself a Nokia N900 for about €330, which is also a device full of capabilities. But in the end, the Pandora can do more (except GSM), for the same price.


Complaining about people skipping the queue, when they pay more, is in some sense the first thing to do. Some people have waited over two years to get their unit, and now someone with a little more money can easily skip this little extra waiting by paying some more. However, in some way these new people also waited over two years already... Plus they are trying to keep OpenPandora alive.


Personally I would love to see OpenPandora survive, and eventually make a decent profit out of the devices. And possibly make a follow-up device with even better specs. But for all of this there needs to be more money, and a larger community.


Having already received my unit it is a little easier to tell this, but I agree with Craig's ideas.

 

[tsh]

personally I think it should have been $500 from the start, but that's beside the point. I really don't have any issue about the price change, my personal issue is with the queue jumping, you won't understand this if you haven't been waiting so there is no point in trying to reason with this reaction.

Well, I jumped the queue 6 months back by taking a one-nubber, but what is being offered here is not queue jumping - it is about speeding up the queue. If 10 people jumped in this week, that pushes everyone back at most by a day. If that actually reduces Craig's stress, it might even mean he can achieve an improvement in the process by more than 10 units in a week and noone looses at all.


To me it seems that people are refusing to look at the logistics of this (assuming that the PCBs are not the current bottleneck, or another 200 by air freight can fix that if it is an issue).

 

[ashdjones]

Keep the boat floating.


Craig: You sold me a nice piece of customised/specialist kit for below cost price. For that, I owe you.

 

[graupelschauer]

Lots of people getting very childish here because they don't seem to realise that they have been lucky that the project has made it this far.

I would say OP may be lucky that they have such a great community which perordered and prebought a product that was far from release and should keep their promises instead of making new ones.

 

[Sugar_Kane]

It really depends on how many are going to be offered I suppose. There could well be 2000 people ready to jump at the chance to own one within a week.


The initial refurbs were on ebay for what, a day? They were snapped up. There could be a lot of people that aren't willing to preorder that would readily snap one up if they knew it would be sent immediately. Maybe none of this matters.

 

[gadgetoid]

Anyone who thinks that 500 units are going to sell in a week at $500 (which would have an impact on the short term delivery of batch 1) is not very in touch with reality. I guess maybe 10 people who posted on this thread might?

150 units a day, would be 1050 units a week. If they sold those 500, they would have 550 left to satisfy pre-order customers, versus the 490 they would allegedly have produced in one week. Obviously, the chances of 500 units selling in a week are debatable, but I understand they sold more pre-orders than that in a day.


Ultimately, it's worth a shot.


If only 200 units sell, I'm sure they would have enough change to finance those extra workers over a short period of time, with then 850 units left over to satisfy customers.


Saying "2 heads for 2 months" is somewhat of a straw man argument. They need 3 heads for a matter of weeks to make a difference. If they're getting £10 an hour over 3 weeks, for 8 hours a day, that's around £5000. Call it $15000, give or take. That's only 30 Pandoras.


So, what do you think the chances of selling 30 Pandoras in 3 weeks are?

 

[Xenu]

@craig:


First, the bottleneck seems to be at least partly the board company. They say they can produce 500 boards per week but so far we have only seen 250 a week. So buildning 70 pandoras a day is fine if you only get 250 boards a week. If we get 500 or more boards per week couldn't the money from icp pay for extra assembly personal?

 

[fuji99]

Do whatever you need to do to make some money on this project, you deserve it.

 

[Esn]

Well, speaking as someone who already got my unit:


I'd love anything that got more Pandoras into people's hands, as this increases the amount and quality of software that gets released for it, since there are more coders and more people to beta test things.


Maybe it would help if you worked out a chart for people, saying: this is when batch 1 will be done if we don't do this, and this is when it'll be done if we do do this. To allay the fears of those who're worrying that this will delay their order... (or confirm them, as that may be - but even if they are confirmed, guys, you'll get your unit a bit later but there will be better software than there would be otherwise)

 

[gadgetoid]

Also. 200 * 500 != 40,000.


Unless you're thinking net profit, rather than net income. In which case it would probably also be wrong.

 

[mosschops]

Craig cant understand how I would feel this way though, he just sent me a pm asking for my order number.

neither can i.


he'll give you a refund for a device that has cost £270 and will now be able to sell if for £270+whatever new margin.


that sounds like good business


You all the while have lost the ability to buy a device for £270 AND sell it on for a margin immediately knowing that the price is about to rise


sounds like not so good business to me.