How To Deal With The Newbs?

[Bosbeetle]

I think it will sort itself out, we are human beings we are supposed to be in a social environment. There will be some shouting and some fights but in general it will go fine. (unless it gets so big that there will be a revolution and the newb's will start a war with the oldies, but I dont think that will happen)

 

[Rockthesmurf]

I don't think we really have too much of a problem, the bigger problem in my eyes is the responses not the original question. I would like things to go:

New guy : Hey, I was wondering if is it possible to play SNES games on the Pandora.

GP32 Guru : Hi New guy, glad to see another person interested in the Pandora! The Pandora will be able to emulate SNES from first day, pretty decently. There are a couple of videos of it running <here> and <here>. All of this information is actually available in the FAQ/Wiki/Bla which can be found <HERE> - in future it'd be great if you checked there first as it avoids the forums getting clogged up with duplicate topics!

[LOCKED]

Steve

 

[Pleng]

There are a lot of questions even in the current FAQ, and I'm not sure we can force people to read it in full before they start posting.
Certainly they should check there before asking questions, but I think sending people to a page as soon as they join will just mean they skip past.

We could always have a checkbox saying 'I have read and understood the FAQ'. Seems to be a reliably proven standard

 

[juniorm33]

I think responses can be a bit harsh sometimes due to the reasons I gave above. Once it's out I think things will settle down and newb's will get the kind of responses your hoping for, that's once the new sub forums come online (I'm assuming we will be getting them)
Doesn't answer the problem we may have now, but hopefully be out very soon.

 

[monkeyo2]

But isn't there already a forum for n00bs?

openhandhelds.org

 

[WizardStan]

You will not find a generic boilerplate solution, because even different ways of asking the same question can rub different people the wrong way.
Consider this new post. It's not usually the lack of a search that bothers me, it's the unaware arrogance of the first poster.
Does this person seriously believe that in 3 years no one has thought to at least discuss a GBA emulator? If it were, I dunno... WonderSwan or something else even more obscure, maybe, but GBA is a very popular system, and this poster comes along and talks as if he's the only person to come up with such a great idea. He could have asked "is there a GBA emulator?" or "where can I find information on the GBA emulator?" or even the slightly more demanding "Will the Pandora be able to play <favourite game> in some kind of GBA emulator?", but instead chose to go with "how about a GBA emulator". He probably doesn't even realize what he's suggesting with his post, and that makes it all the worse.
Point is, different cues push different peoples buttons in different ways. You can say "anytime someone asks for X, use this template to respond." And then, a year and a half after release, someone comes along and says something stupid like "someone should write an MP3 player for the Pandora so we can listen to music!" and it's just such a jaw droppingly obtuse question that all reason vanishes and you can't help but say "what are you, stupid? Pandora has had an MP3 player from day negative 600. Why did you buy a device if you don't have any idea about it's basic functionality?" Which results in a butthurt user and anti-flame posts about how we shouldn't flame the new users. But honestly, if they say or do something stupid, get called on it, and then can't accept their mistake and move on, they have bigger problems than just forgetting to search. How many stupid posts have I made? How many of you have made stupid posts and been called on them? Did you drop your account and leave, or did you say "oh yeah, that was kinda stupid, I'll do it differently next time" and move along? The fact that you're still here reading this suggests you did the mature thing, accepted your mistake, and moved on. Why should we expect any differently from new users?
"Because their first impression of us is how we answer their question!" "Well our first impression of them is in how they ask the question."

 

[second exodous]

You will not find a generic boilerplate solution, because even different ways of asking the same question can rub different people the wrong way.
Consider this new post. It's not usually the lack of a search that bothers me, it's the unaware arrogance of the first poster.
Does this person seriously believe that in 3 years no one has thought to at least discuss a GBA emulator? If it were, I dunno... WonderSwan or something else even more obscure, maybe, but GBA is a very popular system, and this poster comes along and talks as if he's the only person to come up with such a great idea. He could have asked "is there a GBA emulator?" or "where can I find information on the GBA emulator?" or even the slightly more demanding "Will the Pandora be able to play <favourite game> in some kind of GBA emulator?", but instead chose to go with "how about a GBA emulator". He probably doesn't even realize what he's suggesting with his post, and that makes it all the worse.
Point is, different cues push different peoples buttons in different ways. You can say "anytime someone asks for X, use this template to respond." And then, a year and a half after release, someone comes along and says something stupid like "someone should write an MP3 player for the Pandora so we can listen to music!" and it's just such a jaw droppingly obtuse question that all reason vanishes and you can't help but say "what are you, stupid? Pandora has had an MP3 player from day negative 600. Why did you buy a device if you don't have any idea about it's basic functionality?" Which results in a butthurt user and anti-flame posts about how we shouldn't flame the new users. But honestly, if they say or do something stupid, get called on it, and then can't accept their mistake and move on, they have bigger problems than just forgetting to search. How many stupid posts have I made? How many of you have made stupid posts and been called on them? Did you drop your account and leave, or did you say "oh yeah, that was kinda stupid, I'll do it differently next time" and move along? The fact that you're still here reading this suggests you did the mature thing, accepted your mistake, and moved on. Why should we expect any differently from new users?

Ignore it, don't even read it, if it bothers you. The post afterwards kinda bugged me: 'Did you even try to search?'. Really? That post was helpful? Nice response to a question, another question.

It doesn't seem to bother zacaj or Exophase, they seem to want to talk about it. So basically if it bugs you ignore it. If you don't have anything helpful or nice to say don't say anything at all.

"Because their first impression of us is how we answer their question!" "Well our first impression of them is in how they ask the question.

Sometimes you have to be the adult and not get upset, don't rip them, point them to a thread and tell them that you searched for it and found it. Don't be immature and rip them a new one.

 

[juniorm33]

I think this was a worthwhile topic, I just don't think it will be much of an issue once it starts shipping and we get our sub forums.....

 

[(naw)mcx]

[sub]A quiz, no pass, no post.
Just basic stuff, requires a bit of research.[/sub]

 

[Exophase]

You will not find a generic boilerplate solution, because even different ways of asking the same question can rub different people the wrong way.
Consider this new post. It's not usually the lack of a search that bothers me, it's the unaware arrogance of the first poster.
Does this person seriously believe that in 3 years no one has thought to at least discuss a GBA emulator? If it were, I dunno... WonderSwan or something else even more obscure, maybe, but GBA is a very popular system, and this poster comes along and talks as if he's the only person to come up with such a great idea. He could have asked "is there a GBA emulator?" or "where can I find information on the GBA emulator?" or even the slightly more demanding "Will the Pandora be able to play <favourite game> in some kind of GBA emulator?", but instead chose to go with "how about a GBA emulator". He probably doesn't even realize what he's suggesting with his post, and that makes it all the worse.
Point is, different cues push different peoples buttons in different ways. You can say "anytime someone asks for X, use this template to respond." And then, a year and a half after release, someone comes along and says something stupid like "someone should write an MP3 player for the Pandora so we can listen to music!" and it's just such a jaw droppingly obtuse question that all reason vanishes and you can't help but say "what are you, stupid? Pandora has had an MP3 player from day negative 600. Why did you buy a device if you don't have any idea about it's basic functionality?" Which results in a butthurt user and anti-flame posts about how we shouldn't flame the new users. But honestly, if they say or do something stupid, get called on it, and then can't accept their mistake and move on, they have bigger problems than just forgetting to search. How many stupid posts have I made? How many of you have made stupid posts and been called on them? Did you drop your account and leave, or did you say "oh yeah, that was kinda stupid, I'll do it differently next time" and move along? The fact that you're still here reading this suggests you did the mature thing, accepted your mistake, and moved on. Why should we expect any differently from new users?
"Because their first impression of us is how we answer their question!" "Well our first impression of them is in how they ask the question."

In this case it's clear that the guy doesn't speak English that well, given that he apologizes for it in his sig. From the additional context of his post you can determine that what he's asking is if GBA emulation initially intended for Pandora will have the same kinds of compatibility problems as GBA emulation on Wiz, GP2X, and Dingoo, and the answer is a possibly surprising "yes."

 

[WizardStan]

It doesn't seem to bother zacaj or Exophase, they seem to want to talk about it. So basically if it bugs you ignore it. If you don't have anything helpful or nice to say don't say anything at all.
Sometimes you have to be the adult and not get upset, don't rip them, point them to a thread and tell them that you searched for it and found it. Don't be immature and rip them a new one.

You will note that I did ignore it, or at least didn't post anything into it. rapidpoohbear did, however. The point that I was trying to make that you seem to have missed is that, no matter how much you discuss it, no matter how many boilerplate solutions you come up with, a slightly different situation will come up that will tweak someone in just the right way that they can't help but respond, and then you need to come up with another set of responses for that situation. Next thing you know, we're walking barefoot through metal detectors and have to dump out our water bottles before posting.

 

[WizardStan]

In this case it's clear that the guy doesn't speak English that well, given that he apologizes for it in his sig. From the additional context of his post you can determine that what he's asking is if GBA emulation initially intended for Pandora will have the same kinds of compatibility problems as GBA emulation on Wiz, GP2X, and Dingoo, and the answer is a possibly surprising "yes."

It was just an example, not something to be specifically dissected. The point was that this is the kind of thing (not necessarily the thing) that could cause someone to forgo all previous reason and post some kind of "are you really that stupid?" posts.

 

[second exodous]

It doesn't seem to bother zacaj or Exophase, they seem to want to talk about it. So basically if it bugs you ignore it. If you don't have anything helpful or nice to say don't say anything at all.
Sometimes you have to be the adult and not get upset, don't rip them, point them to a thread and tell them that you searched for it and found it. Don't be immature and rip them a new one.

You will note that I did ignore it, or at least didn't post anything into it. rapidpoohbear did, however. The point that I was trying to make that you seem to have missed is that, no matter how much you discuss it, no matter how many boilerplate solutions you come up with, a slightly different situation will come up that will tweak someone in just the right way that they can't help but respond, and then you need to come up with another set of responses for that situation. Next thing you know, we're walking barefoot through metal detectors and have to dump out our water bottles before posting.

Like you said, it was just an example. I noted you ignored it, but just moving fourth the ideas of this thread. I wasn't implying that you were the kind of person to go off the deep end and get upset.

I think it bugging you and you ignoring it proved my point, the people that it annoys just shouldn't post. Once again, if anyone one on this forum is annoyed and doesn't have anything nice or helpful to say they should just not post.

Edit: When I give an example I use 'you' a lot, and I don't mean to put anyone in the spotlight at all, I should use 'anyone' like I did above. I need to work on that.

 

[Grench]

Or maybe flip it upside down... The noobs are -not- the problem.

Instead of making a "Noobs Only" forum, make an "Annoying Criticizers Only" forum instead - and banish anyone who replies with a flagrant bash/flame post to there for a month or so.

I know this is going to be shocking news to quite a few of you, but we need noobs. We will need them even more when the 2nd batch rolls around.

Think of it as a butterfly effect. Noobs are also known as potential new customers. New customers expands the user base. Expanded user base means more $$$ potential. More $$$ potential results in increased development. Increased development results in cool new stuff for us to all enjoy.

Being a jerk to one noob because they asked a noob question results in a post that the next noob will likely have at the top of his search results. He/she might use search only to have the subsequent flames instead of an answer. This means that the next 10 or so noobs who have that same question are going to make their opinion of this community driven device - based on the community that is driving it - on some jerk's acrid and unhelpful post. So, they get a bad vibe on our community - and move on.

So, be kind to the noob. They're the reason that some game or application you're going to want 6-12 months from now might actually get built. A good rule to go by: If your reply isn't either answering the question or showing very specifically where the answer to the question can be found - then you're probably being a jerk.

It is really short sighted to be mean - hand that feeds you and all.

 

[second exodous]

Edit: I went to edit my post for some reason, went to get something, forgot, came back and hit save changes and it made my post a double post. Oops.

 

[WizardStan]

What I'm proposing (in my round about way of proposing anything) is that we stop discussing how to make our responses to newb questions polite, and focus on making followup responses to flaming responses to newb questions. I need some kind of zen saying here about controlling others: basically, it won't work. We can all discuss this until a set of rules is established, and then 5 months from now someone who has only been around for 3 months (but still well respected) encounters his own "WTF" newb question and snaps.
As great as it is to try and prevent fires, there's only so far that prevention can go. Sometimes it's better to prepare for cleanup than to try and stop the fire in the first place.
Newb post: How can I do X?
Response: did you search?
Followup: Searching yields a bunch of useful comments. Try <link>here to start, and then <here> and <here> for more information.

Everyone wins: Newb gets his answer, second poster gets the point across that you should search first, third post smooths things out and hopefully brings the first poster into the fold.
If the original poster still gets all butthurt over being told to search, then there wasn't much you could have done anyway. Unless someone else can solve that scenario.

 

[Prometheus]

Grench - my thoughts exactly. Well-summed-up.

 

[juniorm33]

Hence why I say when new forums go live, call it Advanced, by definition, only things that haven't been gone over 101 times, etc will end up there as no noob will be going straight there to post. Everyone wins.
Noobs will only be confident of posting in there once they've been using the general one for long enough to understand most of the common stuff. Human nature.
Have I already mentioned that I think this will resolve it's self once they start to ship? :lol:

 

[Pleng]

What I'm proposing (in my round about way of proposing anything) is that we stop discussing how to make our responses to newb questions polite, and focus on making followup responses to flaming responses to newb questions.

I agree, and suggest the following template as a response:

Don't be an arse

 

[Aninhumer]

Lots of stuff here, I'll trim quotes aggressively.

- An auto-PM (from a board bot or something) upon registration, explaining that the site covers a range of handhelds, and people should double check which section they're in before posting a new topic. This forum's PM notifications are pretty hard to miss.

That's actually an excellent idea for directing people to the knowledge bases. Stronger than a sticky, but not as annoying as a "you MUST read this first!".

On information management:
SNIP

I certainly think the current information sources could do with reviewing for their "Newb friendliness", and you raise some good points about this.
I remember when I was first learning about the Pandora after being out of this scene for a while, that the FAQ was completely out of date, and I had to lurk on the forums for a while to get back in the loop. The FAQ seems to have improved now, but it certainly tends to be in delay of the word on the forums.
Also while I know they have a lot to worry about right now, we could use OpenPandora's help in cleaning up what resources we have, and ensuring that their official information is 100% reliable, and offers useful links to the community resources.

"Noobs" (I dislike words like "Noobs", "Newbees" and similar as I see it being used by many people to generally imply specific negative attitudes; Being offensive in any way is not my intention, that would destroy all constructiveness) likely won't click the "Pandora Wiki" link on the official "Questions and Answers" page either, as most people won't expect to find an FAQ there that is MUCH different from the one they're looking at on the official website at the same moment. There's one particular posting in this thread that I would like to point out:

I think the generally agreed terms are:
Newb[ie]: a new member who just lacks background knowledge
n00b: a new member who ignores the rules and refuses to accept criticism

Only one person needs to post 'this has already been asked, here is where to look', the ten others after that one person that quote him saying 'yeah, why does this need to be SAID again, it has be talked about a million times' or 'yes, like so and so said use the search', ect. don't need to be posted.

Basically it's the people that are annoyed that keep the topic alive which pulls in more annoyed people until the thread has been posted on for an entire day. If everyone after the first person that gave help would just ignore the thread it would be pushed off the front page. Basically if you're not helping the person asking the question or you're being rude don't post.

Do that make sense?

This is exactly my point.
I suppose this is also made worse by the fact that we really don't have a lot to talk about until it is released, so complaining is at least a semblance of activity

I think the point is: "give a noob an easy answer and he'll always bug you, teach a noob to find information on his own and he'll never bug anyone again"

I agree that it should be possible to ask questions without an angry mob lynch squad jumping you, but I also think it's reasonable to expect people to at least try to search clearly labeled places (like the information index) themselves before asking others.

I don't think anyone here is arguing against teaching newbies to find information themselves.
It's certainly reasonable to expect people to put in the effort of reading the FAQ and searching, but I think it's quite easy for people not familiar with forums to miss the info links for whatever reason, and we certainly shouldn't consider that anything more than a beginners mistake.
(If they continue to do it, that's a different matter)

What I'm proposing (in my round about way of proposing anything) is that we stop discussing how to make our responses to newb questions polite, and focus on making followup responses to flaming responses to newb questions. I need some kind of zen saying here about controlling others: basically, it won't work. We can all discuss this until a set of rules is established, and then 5 months from now someone who has only been around for 3 months (but still well respected) encounters his own "WTF" newb question and snaps.

I think in the case that someone posts something offensive for whatever reason these posts can be mostly defused by making it clear in other posts that that isn't the opinion of the entire forum.
Being attacked by an individual isn't nice, but being attacked by an entire forum is horrible.
EDIT: Pleng suggested the best way of doing this!

This also hopefully makes the aggressor reconsider their conduct, and reduces the chance of that happening in future.
You also raise the important point that we should also assume good faith initially on the part of those who do post something slightly offensive. They might have had a tough day or whatever.