How To Deal With The Newbs?

[emil10001]

I think that a template as suggested by dflemstr would be a good fit for most questions. Of course it isn't 'necessary' but my goal is not simply helping the newbs, but as I said, helping us in our future searches. Putting information in a clear easy to find format like that will help all of us cut down on search times in the future.

 

[danielliu88888]

the pandora hasn't been shipped yet, but when it does, we'll have all the sub sections, like "cool ideas and other wishes" and "i need help". it could help to make those more prominent though.

dflemstr's idea about the template is pretty cool too.

 

[second exodous]

I've never seen a forum where it was such an issue. Usually people welcome people into the community and are glad interest is being shown, even if that interest amounts to asking questions that have been asked before.

Whereas here there seems to be some kind of sense of elitism. Maybe it's because a few of us are one of only 4000 people in the world that's going to get a Pandora. Maybe the waiting has just p*ssed a few people to many people off to remember what good manners are. Whatever it is, as the focal point of the community, it kinda stinks as far as first impressions are concerned.

I don't know, I remember people getting overly rude when the GP2X was new, but I wasn't here when it aged a bit.

Maybe it was because the GP2X wasn't an 'every mans' device, it needed a lot of knowledge to use. The Pandora I hope will be more standard, like installing through repositories instead of 'extract here if you don't it won't work, rename this to that, put roms here and not there or there.'

Time will tell I guess. I think we need to be nice and discourage people that are a little short tempered to post comments that will run people off. I think we need to see ourselves as the Linux community does, we're the minority and we really need to help people join our group. The best way to do that is by being helpful and patient.

 

[Paradox]

I've never seen a forum where it was such an issue. Usually people welcome people into the community and are glad interest is being shown, even if that interest amounts to asking questions that have been asked before.

Whereas here there seems to be some kind of sense of elitism. Maybe it's because a few of us are one of only 4000 people in the world that's going to get a Pandora. Maybe the waiting has just p*ssed a few people to many people off to remember what good manners are. Whatever it is, as the focal point of the community, it kinda stinks as far as first impressions are concerned.

I don't know, I remember people getting overly rude when the GP2X was new, but I wasn't here when it aged a bit.

Maybe it was because the GP2X wasn't an 'every mans' device, it needed a lot of knowledge to use. The Pandora I hope will be more standard, like installing through repositories instead of 'extract here if you don't it won't work, rename this to that, put roms here and not there or there.'

Time will tell I guess. I think we need to be nice and discourage people that are a little short tempered to post comments that will run people off. I think we need to see ourselves as the Linux community does, we're the minority and we really need to help people join our group. The best way to do that is by being helpful and patient.

I honestly have a feeling it will be the opposite to what you think, and it will be even more difficult for newbs.

 

[second exodous]

I've never seen a forum where it was such an issue. Usually people welcome people into the community and are glad interest is being shown, even if that interest amounts to asking questions that have been asked before.

Whereas here there seems to be some kind of sense of elitism. Maybe it's because a few of us are one of only 4000 people in the world that's going to get a Pandora. Maybe the waiting has just p*ssed a few people to many people off to remember what good manners are. Whatever it is, as the focal point of the community, it kinda stinks as far as first impressions are concerned.

I don't know, I remember people getting overly rude when the GP2X was new, but I wasn't here when it aged a bit.

Maybe it was because the GP2X wasn't an 'every mans' device, it needed a lot of knowledge to use. The Pandora I hope will be more standard, like installing through repositories instead of 'extract here if you don't it won't work, rename this to that, put roms here and not there or there.'

Time will tell I guess. I think we need to be nice and discourage people that are a little short tempered to post comments that will run people off. I think we need to see ourselves as the Linux community does, we're the minority and we really need to help people join our group. The best way to do that is by being helpful and patient.

I honestly have a feeling it will be the opposite to what you think, and it will be even more difficult for newbs.

I'm afraid of that, but I hope since this is more of a full blown distro rather than a highly specialized implementation of Linux it might be a little more organized and easier to use. I have my fingers crossed for the forums and non-Linux user.

But talking about if the Pandora will be easier to use or not is getting off topic.

 

[transmition]

I would like it if as soon as someone created an account, they would be redirected to a page the would describe In Big Bold Letters the majority of noob questions. The current knowledge base is ok, but I think it could definitely be reformated to better suit noob questions.

I am also in favor of "noob forums", like the absolute beginner talk section on the ubuntu forums.

 

[Aninhumer]

I've never seen a forum where it was such an issue. Usually people welcome people into the community and are glad interest is being shown, even if that interest amounts to asking questions that have been asked before.

Whereas here there seems to be some kind of sense of elitism. Maybe it's because a few of us are one of only 4000 people in the world that's going to get a Pandora. Maybe the waiting has just p*ssed a few people to many people off to remember what good manners are. Whatever it is, as the focal point of the community, it kinda stinks as far as first impressions are concerned.

I don't know, I remember people getting overly rude when the GP2X was new, but I wasn't here when it aged a bit.

Maybe it was because the GP2X wasn't an 'every mans' device, it needed a lot of knowledge to use. The Pandora I hope will be more standard, like installing through repositories instead of 'extract here if you don't it won't work, rename this to that, put roms here and not there or there.'

Time will tell I guess. I think we need to be nice and discourage people that are a little short tempered to post comments that will run people off. I think we need to see ourselves as the Linux community does, we're the minority and we really need to help people join our group. The best way to do that is by being helpful and patient.

I think actually commenting when someone is overly aggressive would go a long way to discourage it, and also weakens the impact, as it's obvious that the attack wasn't the opinion of the entire forum.

I would like it if as soon as someone created an account, they would be redirected to a page the would describe In Big Bold Letters the majority of noob questions. The current knowledge base is ok, but I think it could definitely be reformated to better suit noob questions.

I am also in favor of "noob forums", like the absolute beginner talk section on the ubuntu forums.

There are a lot of questions even in the current FAQ, and I'm not sure we can force people to read it in full before they start posting.
Certainly they should check there before asking questions, but I think sending people to a page as soon as they join will just mean they skip past.

 

[DaMummy]

next, next, yes, next, yes, install

 

[Poem58]

I agree with what has been said here. I'm glad to see others also feel as I have on this subject. I almost canceled my Pandora order right after making it. I started posting and one of my first questions was about the TV out cable. I had read some of the information and one area said Svideo only and another said Svideo and composite so I asked and was told if I could read I would see it was Svideo ONLY. Funny enough my post brought out the information that the cable would in fact also have the composite connector. So while I was hammered for being a stupid newb who should have known exactly how to make the search engine work (which frankly I still can't get what I'm looking for with) It was a good thing I asked. I think sometimes a question can be asked that brings out more details than were known previously. So it's not always bad. I do think there should be a new free for all posting section. There are some really knowledgeable and friendly people here who would be happy to answer questions. for those who don't want to see "How do I xxxxxx" ever again, they can avoid it. Thankfully, I ran into the polite people in time and didn't cancel my order. I'd hate to think I would have missed out on all this and all the fun to come because I was upset at basically being called an idiot because of the fact that I hadn't yet gotten used to the expectations of this board (which I have stated before is drastically different in rules and expected procedure than any board I have ever been a part of, including one I moderate on)

 

[gruso]

My thoughts, in sparkling point form:

- Definitely more sub-forums (Help, Suggestions/Wishlist, flame-free Newbie Zone)

- Heavy moderation. Not only to merge/lock the cruft, but to lay the law down when established users act like dicks. We're going to need more Chip when the flood starts.

- An auto-PM (from a board bot or something) upon registration, explaining that the site covers a range of handhelds, and people should double check which section they're in before posting a new topic. This forum's PM notifications are pretty hard to miss.

 

[Prometheus]

From my perspective, it only takes a few seconds out of my day to provide a useful link and/or an answer that's to the best of my knowledge, coupled with a couple of words of advice on how to search and get the best results. I'm more than happy to do that, in fact, and try my best to do so.

In comparison, consider the damage done when a user tells of bad experiences getting support to others considering a purchase - this would probably take a lot longer to reverse, if it's even possible at all, than the few seconds it takes to provide a polite notice that should help a person out and help them to help themselves out in the future.

 

[droneb]

i would suggest that all the preorders get their own id number specially to split between inner trolling and outer trollin'.

so, they could get filtered much more easy.

or maybe a subset /subsection specially for (only owners posts) support so we can skip the newb acting a bit.

i also recomend that you can only vote on polls after x number of posts.

but really,
some of you linux only pp go nuts with the 1337ing and drive people mad,
cool down because not every one does 'apt-get' to run their life.

 

[Prometheus]

but really,
some of you linux only pp go nuts with the 1337ing and drive people mad,
cool down because not every one does 'apt-get' to run their life.

Now, I know you said "some", and I know I'd normally just ignore a post like this, but I've never seen that sort of behaviour here, nor in any other Linux-related place I've ever been in. I do know that people assuming/accusing things like this is very likely to ruffle feathers, though. Surely that sort of ruffling is precisely what this discussion should be trying to prevent?

 

[droneb]

yes, but i would bet that if M$ or Mac had a support service anwered like how some linux pp do, they wouldnt hava survived long.

my point is, i usually hate to use forums to gather some info about X thing.
not because of the noob questions made by some, but more of the 1337 thinking answers.

now, back to the topic, really you also should think on the new people trying to understand the comunity, and
they are interested until they bump with a wall of n pages of nfo/rules , some more of FAQ, even more of
sidetalking on topics with two digits page numbers long. (yes there is a search btn but not everyone is aware of how to make a good search query)

no one likes homework to get a panda and understand panda.

thats why i would suggest a rank model used in different forums (yes its hard to implement but once done its really good).
n posts people can have x kinds of actions, people with a preorder get extra options, and then you can sum DEVs Moderators

yes theres also other consoles in this forums, but then they should also add a functionality similar

 

[Christoph.Krn]

On subforums:

I really like the idea of more subsections. They would help managing all the information. They may indeed enable new users to find what they are searching for more quickly, thus potentially preventing duplicate questions.

Idon'tthink that we should split up the 'General Discussion' sectionintosub-topics because I really don't want to have to go to a bunchofsub-topics looking for new/interesting discussions or news.

You may not yet have noticed the "View New Content" link on the top right corner of this Forum. You can use it to get an overview of the most recently active topics. However, this links always shows the latest active topics from ALL sections, not only from the Pandora parts of this forum. I think it'd be better to have something like this for particular sections directly on this website (as opposed to creating a search on your own) instead of not splitting the discussions.

I alsothink that peoplemight have issues figuring out where to post theirquestions ifsomething covers more than one sup-topic.

In my opinion this should simply be handled by moderators by moving the threads into the appropriate sections. If people really have no clue where to post, they will likely post anyway, in the general section.

Furthersubforumsmight be useful, but I think they should be added ifand whenthey areneeded, as splitting everything up immediatelyinevitablymeans some willbecome idle, and therefore useless for peopletrying toaskquestions.

I definitely share this opinion.

---

On the attitude:

Maybethewaiting has just p*ssed a few people to many people off to rememberwhatgood manners are. Whatever it is, as the focal point of thecommunity,it kinda stinks as far as first impressions are concerned.

The reason doesn't really care. I believe that looking forward and not looking back will help a whole lot more here. Therefore, I glued together the following three quotes, may they help anyone in changing his/her attitude:

(...)we're the minority and we really need to help people join our group. The best way to do that is by being helpful and patient.

(...)considerthe damage done when a user tells of bad experiences gettingsupport toothers considering a purchase - this would probably take alot longer toreverse, if it's even possible at all, than the fewseconds it takes toprovide a polite notice that should help a personout and help them tohelp themselves out in the future.

Being mean/rude is not helpful to anyone and might steer people away from a already small community like this.

---

On information management:

Therearea lot of questions even in the current FAQ, and I'm not sure wecanforce people to read it in full before they start posting.
Certainlytheyshould check there before asking questions, but I think sendingpeopleto a page as soon as they join will just mean they skip past.

As you said, the key isn't to force people to read information when they least expect it to magically appear. The key is to help them in finding whatever they are looking for the moment they are searching.

However, when you do the most obvious and visit the official Open Pandora website, click "About the Pandora" and then "Questions and Answers" (which already is a bit too hard to find to prevent people from duplicating FAQ questions on the forum, in my humble opinion), you will merely get 6 (six) not too helpful answers, the last of them being:

"I have a question / Why did you do Xyz...
Head over to the OpenPandora Forums and post your thoughts..."

Thus I come to the conclusion that, as Transmition said, the current knowledge base has to be rearranged:

The current knowledge base is ok, but Ithink it could definitely be reformated to better suit noob questions.

Indeed there's much information waiting to be discovered by people who just recently got interested in the Pandora, with the Pandora Information Index being a nice example.

"Noobs" (I dislike words like "Noobs", "Newbees" and similar as I see it being used by many people to generally imply specific negative attitudes; Being offensive in any way is not my intention, that would destroy all constructiveness) likely won't click the "Pandora Wiki" link on the official "Questions and Answers" page either, as most people won't expect to find an FAQ there that is MUCH different from the one they're looking at on the official website at the same moment. There's one particular posting in this thread that I would like to point out:

Iamnewbiein the whole linux scene. Never used it before so i guess ucancall me anewbee. Sometimes i ask people about stuff i cantfindquickly. I likeanswers on my questions.

It's important to see that often it's less about writing a question to a real person versus the risk of reading potentially unimportant text (== lazy vs. eager, which without doubt does also exists), than it is about getting information fast versus getting information slowly (slowly == not finding it fast enough, or for whatever reason not trusting in the own ability to find the information needed).

In my opinion, the "I have a question"-question on the "Questions and Answers" section of the official Open Pandora website should be removed. Instead, there should be an additional text, on top of all questions and clearly visible to everyone, that says something like:
"Didn't find your answer here? See the Pandora Wiki FAQ for a comprehensive collection of additional questions and answers, and have a look at the Pandora Information Index. (both community managed off site links, we are not responsible for content). If that didn't help you, you can still register on the forums to ask your question there." ("on the forums" without link, as people are more likely to click the links first)

---

Well,I hope I didn't mess up any of the "quote name=" (if so, I'm sorry,please tell me and I'll fix it). Please share any comments on my ideas.

EDIT: It seems that this forum is sometimes arbitrarily deleting spaces when submitting a post. I had to edit this post to put many spaces back in, and the quotes in this post may no longer be like the original.

 

[second exodous]

I think that too many people on this forum get upset when a question is asked multiple times. These people feel that they are doing the community a service by posting 'this has already been asked a million times', or 'go here' posting a link to another thread rather than a F.A.Q. or wiki.

Only one person needs to post 'this has already been asked, here is where to look', the ten others after that one person that quote him saying 'yeah, why does this need to be SAID again, it has be talked about a million times' or 'yes, like so and so said use the search', ect. don't need to be posted.

Basically it's the people that are annoyed that keep the topic alive which pulls in more annoyed people until the thread has been posted on for an entire day. If everyone after the first person that gave help would just ignore the thread it would be pushed off the front page. Basically if you're not helping the person asking the question or you're being rude don't post.

Do that make sense?

 

[Shaun199three]

I really don't see the problem with new members of the community wanting to ask a few questions and not realising there is a FAQ. Most the stuff we talk about on the general section isn't that important anyways and the things that are actually important are these types of questions used to clarify things. I must admit alot of the updates we get aren't totally clear. To be honest I'm still am not sure why the moulds are taking more than 111 days. Its true that they did give us reasons, but for alot of people this wouldn't make sense.
If you are sick of answering a few nooby questions than just don't read the thread, and if you do want to help out just answer it, and leave it at that unless you want to start a massive conversation about nothing. It'll take less then a minute to answer and I'm sure it won't be too much of a burden since alot of people roam around the forums in boredom anyways.

 

[bzar]

I really don't see the problem with new members of the community wanting to ask a few questions and not realising there is a FAQ. Most the stuff we talk about on the general section isn't that important anyways and the things that are actually important are these types of questions used to clarify things. I must admit alot of the updates we get aren't totally clear. To be honest I'm still am not sure why the moulds are taking more than 111 days. Its true that they did give us reasons, but for alot of people this wouldn't make sense.
If you are sick of answering a few nooby questions than just don't read the thread, and if you do want to help out just answer it, and leave it at that unless you want to start a massive conversation about nothing. It'll take less then a minute to answer and I'm sure it won't be too much of a burden since alot of people roam around the forums in boredom anyways.

I think the point is: "give a noob an easy answer and he'll always bug you, teach a noob to find information on his own and he'll never bug anyone again"

For most people it seems to be either an etiquette or respect related issue. It's like going to a grocery store and shouting out loud "Where's the milk!". If one gets a straight answer shouting like this, and is not pointed to the signs hanging from the ceiling, he'll go get the milk and shout "Where are the eggs!" and so on.

I agree that it should be possible to ask questions without an angry mob lynch squad jumping you, but I also think it's reasonable to expect people to at least try to search clearly labeled places (like the information index) themselves before asking others.

EDIT: typo

 

[second exodous]

Too bad there isn't a wiki on forum etiquette we could just read. A lot of forums have problems like these. Basically we need to make sure everyone that is visiting has a positive experience, it shouldn't be to make the people that are here often happy.

 

[juniorm33]

I think this is due to the fact that it hasn't released yet.
If your look at Wiz,GP2 etc, they all have a lot of sub forums, and the only reason I believe that Pandora doesn't is due to the fact it's not out yet.
So everything ends up in the General forum.
Once it's released and there's more sub forums, i.e. one for newb's then I don't think it will be such a big problem.
The people who pop into the newb forum will be the people who doesn't mind answering questions and pointing out where the obvious information is. Also they will help each other because they'll say hey yea, if you look in the FAQ, or do this search you'll find it, I had that problem.
Maybe I have to much faith in human nature but I believe people will want to help each other. At the moment, I think the general forum is a melting pot, of trolls (no not many), newb, people who's been waiting a long time, frustrated people, etc
PS. A good example is, the developer's forum, that's generally ok, because it's a sub forum with a clear remit. You don't even have to go to a sticky to know that you probably shouldn't be posting what colour's does it come in questions.

Edit: Maybe calling the new sub forum advanced and not newb may be a nice way to go about splitting it up also.
And I agree with Bosbeetle bellow, I just took long winded way around to saying it :lol: