How Do We Decide?

[Kyo]

I never said I was surprised, I'm not. Just outraged. This should not be something anybody has to decide over.

 

[may88]

select a few key Devs that would benefit and then a few real people. 25:75 split has been suggested.
Of the 75 we should look for people to test and feed back on predefined list of actions.

Hell! I'm way down the list and sort of resigned myself to having another two months to wait.

 

[dflemstr]

Hey, have I missed something or aren't the 100 first Pandoras going to be test-Pandoras, thus requiring whoever gets them to go through test suites of some kind? I can't imagine that the average Joe is going to want to do that; he might not even be able to (depending on the complexity of the tests)

And heck, we're talking about maybe 1 month more of waiting for the rest of us; we should be used to that by now

 

[b._.o._.b]

Probably for the first time in my life I agree with this man... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8To-6VIJZRE

 

[hedwards]

We were promised that the ones who ordered first would also get it first. I find it outrageous that craig is even considering something else. We spent money on this. We waited almost a year long. Do they think this is not enough? We have programs for the pandora, and they should just ship it to whoever ordered first.

I don't get this, wasn't it sometime in December, when Craig first suggested that they may have to ship them out of order? Perhaps my memory is a bit hazy, but I don't recall people getting all up in arms at that point.

Right now, I'm not really sure that it's realistic to make that sort of que decision. Do the people who ordered first initially get the spots, or is it in the order that people paid for theirs?

 

[darkborn]

I really, really want my Pandora here. I have some private reasons why I need it.
However, I'm asking people around to be patient for a while more. We don't want some serious bug in mass production, do we? Loss will be enormous. Not just for us right now, and not just for Pandora.
Let's face it: Pandora is - or should be - kick in the eye for whole multi-million game production concept. Pandora is entering the playfield of many sharks, and many of them will be more then happy to see Pandora failed. On the other hand, if we got 100% checked product, it will be good for us all - in longer terms.
And what about P.R. & marketing? Some of those 1st 100 should be available to people who could advertise it at media or so.
More propaganda > more attention > more potential investors. It means more software (or hardware add-ons) > more valuable platform.
At least, hardware without (enough) software is deadware.

 

[Lorkile]

First, I strongly doubt I'm anywhere near the first 100. No matter how much I would like to be now, I seriously doubt I am and still think I chose what was right for me then.

So, no matter how bothered I am by some of the ideas thrown around here lately (such as devs getting to cut in line ahead of some of the first 100, instead of replacing them in line so the rest of us get ours as we were promised) I doubt much of this discussion will get anywhere. Openpandora ltd. as proven with the keyboard layout, seems to at best now take the communities input as suggestions before going on as they prefer. I continue finding myself questioning having chosen to give them some financial backing, twice, when things like this even arise as potential questions and think that should they not at least hold the spirit of their words then more bad press will come.

After reading most (possibly all if nothings changed by the time I'm done posting) of the previous discussion in this thread (and a bit of the comments on the unofficial blog) I think the most widely accepted solution of asking anyone in the first 100 if they don't mind letting devs get their spot and them bumped to just over 100 should be modified to them switching places entirely.

I mean, without asking everyone who gets bumped then this should be shrunk to asking and changing the fate of the least number of consumers by simply having the developer trade places with the person. This would mean all later orders aren't moved, and the decision of a key few are left to impact those key few negatively or positively as they allow while the Pandora platform potentially gains from those developers without real worry (aside from those who traded down) whether or not there were visible gains from those developers getting ahead in line.

Edit: At this point I don't think adding anymore press (directly) is needed aside from initial reactions to the unit. After Openpandora ltd. starts taking preorders for the second batch I think is a fine time, especially if that means a sizable number from the first batch is already delivered to consumers.

 

[renegadechic]

i see it like this: if 100 devs get a unit then 3900 people benefit from whatever they do.

if 100 fanboys get a unit early, we will see some unboxing videos and have 3900 people being jealous whilst the first 100 probably bitch about stuff that hasnt been developed/finalised yet or just sit around playing games all day, which is fine, but not all that productive.

in one situation a whole lot of people benefit. the queue shouldnt really be down to ego and community epenis. a) we dont even know who is in the first 100 and B) we dont know just how many of the first 100 are devs who would be picked already. i seriously dont see what all the fuss is about and i am frankly sad if people think that just getting it before anyone else is going to make that experience any better.

if its making a difference to you just because you will feel like you have at least definitely got it in your hands, then congratulations for lasting 9 months of waiting and falling down spectacularly at the last hurdle.

 

[renegadechic]

oh and of course it goes without saying it should go to proper devs and testers with known expertise rather than anyone just "saying" they're a dev. frankly if someone was willing to work on something for the pandora in a functionally resourceful way without a unit all this time, i would say that was pretty good representation of their faith and value as a dev to this project

 

[Shaun199three]

i see it like this: if 100 devs get a unit then 3900 people benefit from whatever they do.

if 100 fanboys get a unit early, we will see some unboxing videos and have 3900 people being jealous whilst the first 100 probably bitch about stuff that hasnt been developed/finalised yet or just sit around playing games all day, which is fine, but not all that productive.

in one situation a whole lot of people benefit. the queue shouldnt really be down to ego and community epenis. a) we dont even know who is in the first 100 and B) we dont know just how many of the first 100 are devs who would be picked already. i seriously dont see what all the fuss is about and i am frankly sad if people think that just getting it before anyone else is going to make that experience any better.

if its making a difference to you just because you will feel like you have at least definitely got it in your hands, then congratulations for lasting 9 months of waiting and falling down spectacularly at the last hurdle.

I agree. Only 100 people will benefit if it was given to the first 100 but if it was given to 100 devs than that would benefit everyone. Besides there is only little time between the first 100 ordering and the rest. But if this caused delays looking for devs than i'm happy just to give it to the first 100 preorders.

 

[Epoch]

Even if more people will benefit overall by shipping consoles to developers first, if the orders when placed were to be filled on a first come first serve basis, deviating from that is unethical.

If the orders are fulfilled in any other order that is a deviation from the original agreement with the purchasers. That isn't a good way to run a business, and its not a way to engender trust from your customers. You either ask them for permission to make a deviation from the agreed upon plan or you continue with the plan.

If they are not final production units that is a different story, but from my understanding of the twitter post that started this all, those first 100 are final production units.

I understand wanting more software, more projects to be finished, and possibly a more polished experience for the end users. But if the original agreement with the purchasers was that they get their product when it is ready to be shipped, you *must* ask them to agree to have their product allocated to another cause/customer.

 

[Tom`]

As I see it, several ideas have come up repeatedly. I'll try to evaluate my reactions to each of them, in the hope that it may be useful to people trying to make up their mind. I myself have no strong opinion, since I feel that each view has merit.

I am assuming for the purposes of this post that the first hundred Pandoras are identical in terms of hardware (boards, cases, the complete package) to the other few thousand, although not necessarily in software.

• OP could distribute the first hundred to the first hundred people who pre-ordered (or more realistically, less, since there are almost certainly people who ordered more than one). This has the advantage of being completely fair, and complying with the letter of Craig's statements of the past year.

• OP could distribute the first hundred to developers, whether GP2X developers, Beagleboard developers, or anyone who applies and has a good reputation as far as previous software authored. This has the advantage that more applications and games will be available to the general public. However, there are a few unknowns: how much time would pass between the distribution of the first hundred units and that of the rest? If this is sufficiently short (a week or two), it may negate the advantage of the software (since a decent amount of software is already running, and developers mightn't get enough of a headstart to finish more). If it's too long, on the other hand, an artificially imposed delay seems unfair and arbitrary.

• OP could split the first hundred between developers and users. There are a number of possibilities here:

1. A fixed number of units could be allotted to developers, with regular users receiving the remainder in the original order.
2. Users could be asked individually whether they want to cede their place in line to a developer. This seems like the more equitable option, but unpredictable (how many users would agree?).

• Some variation on the above, but with either the regular users or developers being replaced by testers, who would commit to running the available software and reporting any bugs or issues.

My position is almost certainly pretty far back - I ordered (IIRC) close to two hours after the page went up, but I initially tried via Paypal, so I could be anywhere. I personally am not too concerned about the software at launch, so I guess I would lean toward sending them to users or testers rather than developers, but I guess it might be best to let the individuals decide.

 

[gruso]

There's only one solution here. 100 developers. 100 regular users. 200 knives. 1 arena.

Oh, and one person in a Panda mascot suit. I'd probably stab that first.

 

[danielliu88888]

There's only one solution here. 100 developers. 100 regular users. 200 knives. 1 arena.

Oh, and one person in a Panda mascot suit. I'd probably stab that first.

yes, this is definitely the best way to decide. a brawl to the death to show your devotion. i'll make an armor out of those knives and tackle people

(who's in the mascot suit? hopefully not me...)

 

[Consequence_9]

20 to top devs (includes OP team members), the rest go down the queue. 20 is both insignificant enough of a number to be pushed back in the queue, but at the same time those 20 in the right hands will make things better for all of us. I'm sure we could find 20 out of the first 100 to give up their spot anyway.

 

[hedwards]

If the orders are fulfilled in any other order that is a deviation from the original agreement with the purchasers. That isn't a good way to run a business, and its not a way to engender trust from your customers. You either ask them for permission to make a deviation from the agreed upon plan or you continue with the plan.

There was no original agreement about that it wasn't until later that the subject came up. The first come first served was the basis for who would get one and who wouldn't, not what order they'd be filled in. That changed when they lifted the cap. The tentative talk of shipping in order wasn't something that had even been broached when people were ordering, it wasn't until later, and enough things have legitimately changed, that I don't think it's reasonable to consider the basis for the decision valid. At that point, it was a question of how quickly the units would be finished off, and those of us closer to the end of the que gave then so that the lower que people wouldn't be waiting for our units. I personally see no reason why they can't offer the same,

In fact, it's been brought up several times during the credit card fiasco that they might not be able to do it in the order in which it was received, I'm not sure why these objections weren't voiced then, but then again I might have tuned that out, since there was a lot of whining and paranoia on the forums.

On top of that, at this point, I'm not really sure that there is a que position to work with. Or at least not one which can be reasonably be agreed upon. There was the order in which people placed their preorder, but there's also the order by which OP got paid and I'm not personally convinced that the people who paid first shouldn't have a more rightful claim than those that just ordered first.

A reasonable compromise would probably be to do a 60-40 split between low que holders and devs.

Remember, that just because some people believed that it was a part of the contract or agreement, doesn't mean that it was, and I'm a bit confused as to how it could be a part of any agreement when it wasn't even discussed until later.

 

[Pleng]

There's only one solution here. 100 developers. 100 regular users. 200 knives. 1 arena.

Oh, and one person in a Panda mascot suit. I'd probably stab that first.

You know I was going to suggest a fight to the death. But leave knives out of it, let's make it a real fight!

In fact we could get ALL the pre-orderers involved and give the Pandoras to the 100 left in the ring, leaving OP to re-sell the first batch and maybe even turn a profit...

 

[Zipperwitz]

1 / A few weeks headstart on the core Pandora fans isn't going to make any more than a few weeks difference in dev application release dates. These devs haven't got 4 weeks booked off work you know. They're going to be posting unboxing vids like everyone else would.
2 / These applications aren't needed now. There's already enough demand for this device. The OS is there, as is a browser, open office, media players etc. These don't need 100 devs to test.
3 / By giving them to the 1st 100 people that ordered them, you'll be giving them to the people that most DESERVE them. Those that have waited the longest. A very long time.

 

[gp32rich]

Seeing as how you can dev&test on PC before x-compiling to Panda, how much of a difference will it make?


Just get 'em out the door already!

 

[Kyo]

1 / A few weeks headstart on the core Pandora fans isn't going to make any more than a few weeks difference in dev application release dates. These devs haven't got 4 weeks booked off work you know. They're going to be posting unboxing vids like everyone else would.
2 / These applications aren't needed now. There's already enough demand for this device. The OS is there, as is a browser, open office, media players etc. These don't need 100 devs to test.
3 / By giving them to the 1st 100 people that ordered them, you'll be giving them to the people that most DESERVE them. Those that have waited the longest. A very long time.

Exactly. I don't know if I'm under the first 100, but I think I have a fair chance of being under the first 100. I wasted an afternoon to get my order in early, so I would get my pandora early. Then OP wasted a year of mine with delays. I don't want any more of my time wasted for nothing.