Has *anybody* received a refund from OpenPandora Ltd (Craig's) in 2013?

[Grench]

 In my opinion, it's wrong to assume that Craig has used all the money for his personal affairs just because it's the most infuriating option of them all. [...] If he has, then I'd like proof, rather than accusations without a foundation.

This.

I still want to know...

The 1Ghz Pandora was advertised as, 'buy 1 fund 1'.  I sent $700 to Craig's online store - and was lucky enough to be inside the first batch of 70 that he received from ED and sent out.  I later, 'found out' through the forums that none of the money from my purchase (from Craig) was sent to the manufacturer (ED) to cover the costs.  Is this true?

The $700 I sent to Craig's shop was 'new cash in hand'.  Was the $350+/- of that purchase price that should have covered the wholesale costs of it ever paid to the manufacturer (ED) in cash or kind?

I would like to know.  Why?  I keep asking myself:  Is my having a 1Ghz Pandora the result of me inadvertently purchasing stolen merchandise?  Consider it the pursuit of 'fair trade' if you like.

This brings a moral issue for me.  I do not like the idea of benefiting from someone else's deception or worse.  If Craig's store did not compensate ED's store for the Pandora that I am using, I will feel obligated to help amend that debt owed to ED - and potentially to pursue Craig for restitution as well.

So - can someone clarify if my 1Ghz Pandora was the result of 'Fair Trade' or whether I have a moral obligation to ED and a debt from Craig?

Thank you.

 

[moxie]

WHAT A LIAR. IF I GET TO NEWCASTLE, YOU'LL BE LEFT ABANDONED OF SOME CRUCIAL PARTS OF YOUR BODY!

darkborn, would you like to live in the medieval period?

I don't mean to defend Crag's behavior, but I think that this threat is not better -- In fact, I deem it as seriously not acceptable. And I assume (and hope) I'm not the only person in here.

No, you're not the only one.

 

[Exophase]

This is my understanding of the situation, maybe it can help clear things up for some.. if I'm wrong about anything hopefully I'll be corrected. The whole thing has been pretty confusing for me too.

According to ED, the agreement seems to be this:

1) Profits from sales of the second batch of 4000 Pandoras will be used to pay for outstanding preorders from the first batch. Craig pays ED for the price of a Pandora including margin (not sure if this was the complete list price or not). For every 1000 second batch Pandoras sold part of the profit is spent to finance manufacturing first batch Pandoras, and they're divided among both ED and Craig's queue. Apparently this happened for the first 1000 Pandoras.

2) After transitioning to making 1GHz Pandoras the deal changed to Craig buying 1GHz Pandoras at manufacturing cost, putting the responsibility of using the profit from these sales to finance outstanding Pandoras on Craig.

According to Craig, the agreement seems to be this:

1) ED owes Craig all of his outstanding Pandoras regardless of how many Pandoras Craig purchases at margin.

2) After transitioning to making 1GHz Pandora all of the Pandoras ED owes Craig got upgraded to owed 1GHz units.

Therefore, from Craig's point of view he never owed ED the money for those 1GHz Pandoras to begin with.

Of course this arrangement makes no real sense and there's no way the investors would have agreed to have their money spent this way (and they didn't). However, this does raise a question in my mind - as far as I'm aware the investors agreed to part 1) of ED's understanding above, in writing. Was part two also something that was explicitly agreed upon in writing? Did it require an amendment to the contract, or was it still valid within the original terms? (guess I'll look at the wording at some point..)

 

[Grench]

WHAT A LIAR. IF I GET TO NEWCASTLE, YOU'LL BE LEFT ABANDONED OF SOME CRUCIAL PARTS OF YOUR BODY!

darkborn, would you like to live in the medieval period?

I don't mean to defend Crag's behavior, but I think that this threat is not better -- In fact, I deem it as seriously not acceptable. And I assume (and hope) I'm not the only person in here.

No, you're not the only one.

That crosses a very clear line - to personal physical threats.  It should probably be turned over to the proper authorities in the author's country of residence.

 

[Null]

In fact, I deem it as seriously not acceptable.

I agree, it's seriously light on details.

 

[notaz]

This is my understanding of the situation, maybe it can help clear things up for some.. if I'm wrong about anything hopefully I'll be corrected. The whole thing has been pretty confusing for me too.


According to ED, the agreement seems to be this:


1) Profits from sales of the second batch of 4000 Pandoras will be used to pay for outstanding preorders from the first batch. Craig pays ED for the price of a Pandora including margin (not sure if this was the complete list price or not). For every 1000 second batch Pandoras sold part of the profit is spent to finance manufacturing first batch Pandoras, and they're divided among both ED and Craig's queue. Apparently this happened for the first 1000 Pandoras.


2) After transitioning to making 1GHz Pandoras the deal changed to Craig buying 1GHz Pandoras at manufacturing cost, putting the responsibility of using the profit from these sales to finance outstanding Pandoras on Craig.

AFAIK the original intention was to cover all Craig's/ED's preorders, so ED asked Craig how many preorders were left, got an answer "800" and built a plan based on that with those 800 to be sent "for free". Craig was more like in "do whatever you want with this sinking ship, I don't care" mode at the time so no formal agreement was made.


When Craig found out that functional 1GHz prototype board was built, he suddenly announced 1GHz units. That had several effects:


- killed rebirth sales, making the plan of gradually financing preorders non-functional as there were no sales any more (remember that the 1GHz production was more than a month away from being ready at that time)


- sudden need of money for the 150 run + prototypes / setup costs as DM3730 needs to be populated differently

At this point there probably was a misunderstanding. Craig openly said (lied?) everywhere that the increased price is needed for the expensive prototype/production run (like here) so ED naturally thought he is definitely going to at least receive money needed for production (I don't know how it was actually agreed on). At the same time Craig assumed (as he later confirmed himself) that he gets the units for free as part of the 800 deal and used the money he got from people for refunds and nobody-but-him-knows what.

We all know what happened after that - after 70 units ED stopped sending as he naturally needed money to pay for production, so it just reverted back to original slow finance-preorders-with-sales plan, effectively making remaining 1GHz queue part of main preorder queue.

As for what Craig now thinks the agreement was is pretty much random, he tries to present whatever is best for him now as a formal agreement, when in fact there was none, else it would have influenced the investor plan greatly.

 

[Null]

That crosses a very clear line - to personal physical threats. It should probably be turned over to the proper authorities in the author's country of residence.

 

[Exophase]

AFAIK the original intention was to cover all Craig's/ED's preorders, so ED asked Craig how many preorders were left, got an answer "800" and built a plan based on that with those 800 to be sent "for free". Craig was more like in "do whatever you want with this sinking ship, I don't care" mode at the time so no formal agreement was made.

Okay, so what I know for sure is that this plan only called for a certain allotment of extra Pandoras per every 1000 sold. That's what ED posted back in November. So no matter what, ED would have never been on the hook to spend all money he had (mostly from investors) to manufacture Craig's Pandoras immediately. And he can't be blamed for not sending them when there haven't been enough batch two sales to cover it.

What I'd still like to know is what Craig was supposed to be paying ED in order to receive new (second batch) Rebirth Pandoras. If it was at margin then there's a financial contribution on Craig's part that's necessary in order for ED to be able to send him Pandoras to fulfill his first batch preorders. In this case the Pandoras wouldn't really be free. It'd also make sense why a transition to giving 1GHz units at cost instead of margin would nullify this agreement, since Craig would now be receiving profit he didn't receive before.

When Craig found out that functional 1GHz prototype board was built, he suddenly announced 1GHz units. That had several effects:

- killed rebirth sales, making the plan of gradually financing preorders non-functional as there were no sales any more (remember that the 1GHz production was more than a month away from being ready at that time)

- sudden need of money for the 150 run + prototypes / setup costs as DM3730 needs to be populated differently

If ED wasn't ready to make 1GHz units and it came at expense to his funds (investment funds) then IMO he should have refused to even make them. Craig must have convinced him to do so, or maybe he agreed to it to avoid forcing Craig to repeal the message given the community support received. Craig was convinced that he'd be able to sell a lot of 1GHz units, but I was pretty sure that he wouldn't at the prices he was offering them for..

At this point there probably was a misunderstanding. Craig openly said (lied?) everywhere that the increased price is needed for the expensive prototype/production run (like here) so ED naturally thought he is definitely going to at least receive money needed for production (I don't know how it was actually agreed on). At the same time Craig assumed (as he later confirmed himself) that he gets the units for free as part of the 800 deal and used the money he got from people for refunds and nobody-but-him-knows what.

So in other words, Craig says to the community that the 1GHz units cost more (which they don't beyond the initial startup costs), but expects to get upgrades to them for free, at ED's expense. So either he too thinks his original claim is a lie or he has especially unreasonable expectations of ED..

We all know what happened after that - after 70 units ED stopped sending as he naturally needed money to pay for production, so it just reverted back to original slow finance-preorders-with-sales plan, effectively making remaining 1GHz queue part of main preorder queue.

So whatever the plan was with the 1GHz units, agreed on/contractually amended/whatever is moot because it's not happening anymore. And ED takes the responsibility for money that had to be spent on 1GHz units - not the cost of the parts but the test runs and many damaged chips that resulted in getting it right. Also an implicit cost that it's a lot harder to move existing supply of older parts to sell Rebirth Pandoras. This cost is basically passed on to the buyer in the form of an extra premium for 1GHz units, but ED had to drive that down to try to get some more sales. It looks like right now sales are down a lot and this could be unmanageable..

ED will at least be able to clear his queue but that's of small comfort. I have the bad feeling that there may never be enough new 1GHz Pandoras sold to fund the old preorders, and recover investment money spent (plus interest). I hope I'm wrong :/

 

[rohezal]

ED will at least be able to clear his queue but that's of small comfort. I have the bad feeling that there may never be enough new 1GHz Pandoras sold to fund the old preorders, and recover investment money spent (plus interest). I hope I'm wrong :/

Well there seem to be some updates. Some people returning their classic pandoras for an gigahertz oder rebirth pandoras. This are for a 1Ghz Pandora 315,00€.

This is the production price. ED can use the old cc board to refurbish it, placing an new Case, Nubs and Screen on it (for 110€ as dragonbox said, -19% Vat ~ 90€+10€ for the battery = 100€). He can sell it for 279€ - 19% Vat ~ 225€. This means 125€ profit, but maybe Askaru want some payment for his work at ED, so lets say 100€ profit, with 1 hours wage for Askaru and, some money for RMAs. Hope I am not wrong here.

 

[Asmo]

I just sure hope someone makes a doco out of all this one day.  Like Micro Men

Same closing shot! Protagonist pootles off into the sunset in their electric car, credits roll....

 

[Grench]

That crosses a very clear line - to personal physical threats. It should probably be turned over to the proper authorities in the author's country of residence.

You say that - but clearly you haven't experienced the 'other side' of online threats.

Back in the early 90's I had a guy threaten me in an email - very specifically as to how and what he would do with the body.  I turned it over to the SYSOP (yes, it was on a BBS) who filed it with the police just in case.  The same guy who threatened me died in prison several years later after having been convicted of brutally torturing and killing someone.

http://journalstar.com/special-section/epilogue/twenty-years-later-people-still-remember-candi-harms/article_39e9d473-4142-532f-9146-37ba755b5b04.html

Send threats of bodily harm to the appropriate authorities.  Let them sort out whether there is any reason to 'overreact'.

 

[skeezix]

The core team communicate very well.. Except craig :0 all this ill will is entirely well deserved; ignoring everything else .. He is his own worst enemy. His lack of communication, his mind games, his using people when they're needed .. I'm half convinced he's a sociopath.


Bad luck, a lot of stress, a total lack of clue on how to run finances for sure. But all of this can be worked with..


.. If he would talk and deal fairly.


Instead .. Stabbing those who have helped him (ED and all the devs); remember the 'I've made my own repo spec!' lies? Wheres the new OS he was working on? Working with the community by ignoring everything going on and control freaking instead? Holding competitions and not reserving prizes? Hiring bad contractors and paying up front with no contract to deliver goods, not talking to devs and then blaming them when things work out different than his distorted vision, Taking piles of units from ED and not paying for them? Goodness gracious, the list goes on and on. (Sensible people open a compo and put the prizes aside .. Nolonger in the pool. Likewise you make an order, especially to a friend, and earmark the cash... Not throw it around willy nilly. Never an idea where it goes..)


Over all the years its easy to forget (and to forgive!) .. But there is a pattern of deceipt here.


But all can be forgiven if he'd start acting like a human being, not some spoiled brat. But he won't .. His world view will not allow him to have made mistakes.


Skeephone


I used to say.. Maybe it'd be different if the pressure was off, if he could go to square 0. But the icp1 and i p2 show us.. He's learned nothing.


I wish GBAX was still around .. He was fun then.


To his credit.. It must suck to come here and face the music. Responsible people do it anyway and turn it around. Or even at least answer his current icp2 business but those KS comments are nasty, the icp2 forum .. Nasty. Wtf does he do with his time that he can't answer a few questions? That guy can ot claim to be too busy.. Look at me

 

[EvilDragon]

AFAIK the original intention was to cover all Craig's/ED's preorders, so ED asked Craig how many preorders were left, got an answer "800" and built a plan based on that with those 800 to be sent "for free". Craig was more like in "do whatever you want with this sinking ship, I don't care" mode at the time so no formal agreement was made.

Exactly like that.

Okay, so what I know for sure is that this plan only called for a certain allotment of extra Pandoras per every 1000 sold. That's what ED posted back in November. So no matter what, ED would have never been on the hook to spend all money he had (mostly from investors) to manufacture Craig's Pandoras immediately. And he can't be blamed for not sending them when there haven't been enough batch two sales to cover it.

Yes, I can confirm this as well.

What I'd still like to know is what Craig was supposed to be paying ED in order to receive new (second batch) Rebirth Pandoras. If it was at margin then there's a financial contribution on Craig's part that's necessary in order for ED to be able to send him Pandoras to fulfill his first batch preorders. In this case the Pandoras wouldn't really be free. It'd also make sense why a transition to giving 1GHz units at cost instead of margin would nullify this agreement, since Craig would now be receiving profit he didn't receive before.

I kept the whole business plan as simple as possible, which means:

1. Craig had 800 Preorders left (both Batch 1 and 2) and owned parts worth about 70,000 EUR.

2. I had 500 Preorders left (both Batch 1 and 2) and owned LCDs worth about 20,000 EUR.

3. If Craig needs any money (for refunds), I would buy parts from him, he would therefore get a few units less.

4. With the money from the investors, production would be moved to Germany. A price had been calculated, based on 4000 produced Pandoras. That means: 4000 Pandoras out of which 1300 would go to the remaining preorder customers and 2700 would need to be sold to new customers. So the price was set to make enough profit with those 2700 units that all invested capital would be back (of course, I also calculated in some safety money in case something bad happens).

That's the basic idea. Simple and clean.

Later, when the 1GHz units were about to happen, the following has been decided (I discussed that with Craig):

1. He can buy any amounts of 1GHz units for production cost price and keep the profit to himself. So he could use the profit to pay refunds or buy additional units for his preorders, as well as to afford more 1GHz units and sell them to make even more profit.

2. The original plan DID NOT change because of that. All profit made from Rebirth unit would be used to fund units for Craigs and my queue equally. ONLY the 1GHz units were excluded from the plan.

I let Craig decide whether he wanted to buy the 1GHz units and try to make profit from them to increase the delivery speed for his classic preorders or whether we should just continue the way we did, with me selling all the units and sharing the profit.

He explicitely wanted to sell them himself as he thought that he could clear his preorder queue pretty fast that way.

So we kept the original plan and just expanded it.

As Rebirth sales basically dropped to 0 with the 1GHz units, there weren't anymore free units delivered to Craig for a while.

And as he didn't pay the production costs of the first 1GHz units to me, I also refused to send him more 1GHz units.

I didn't like the fact that his customers were not getting anymore units, so I had to find a solution.

I offered dropshipping to him, so he could slowly make profit to pay these units, but he never replied to that suggestion.

So it was clear I would never see the payment for these units - so the only chance was to extend the original plan that also the profit from the 1GHz units will be shared.

The unpaid 1GHz units have been deducted from the free units he'll get (to pay off these debts) and now we're fully back to the original plan - the profit from the sales will be shared amongst both.

The most confusing part here probably is that I had to revert back to the original plan, which only had been the case because I never received the payment for those units.

If you have any further questions here or something is unclear, let me know.

When Craig found out that functional 1GHz prototype board was built, he suddenly announced 1GHz units. That had several effects:

- killed rebirth sales, making the plan of gradually financing preorders non-functional as there were no sales any more (remember that the 1GHz production was more than a month away from being ready at that time) - sudden need of money for the 150 run + prototypes / setup costs as DM3730 needs to be populated differently

If ED wasn't ready to make 1GHz units and it came at expense to his funds (investment funds) then IMO he should have refused to even make them. Craig must have convinced him to do so, or maybe he agreed to it to avoid forcing Craig to repeal the message given the community support received. Craig was convinced that he'd be able to sell a lot of 1GHz units, but I was pretty sure that he wouldn't at the prices he was offering them for..

Oh, there was no problem with funding these units. I had the money - otherwise, I would've really run into issues (as he didn't pay the units to me, remember? )

I always make sure to have enough money on my account to be able to act in case anything bad happens.

He was convinced to sell a lot of units for that price, that's probably the reason he decided to keep the profit to himself and not use the shared-profit system we used before for those.

I always thought it was way too high, but he insisted it was great and the Pandora would be easy to sell.

At this point there probably was a misunderstanding. Craig openly said (lied?) everywhere that the increased price is needed for the expensive prototype/production run (like here) so ED naturally thought he is definitely going to at least receive money needed for production (I don't know how it was actually agreed on). At the same time Craig assumed (as he later confirmed himself) that he gets the units for free as part of the 800 deal and used the money he got from people for refunds and nobody-but-him-knows what.

I made it pretty clear he really knows he has to pay for these units if he also wants to keep the profit. I asked him if he's really sure he wants it like that and he agreed.

I sent him an invoice right away after I shipped the first 70 units. I mentioned to him he doesn't have to hurry with the payment, but gave him a date (about a month away) until he really had to pay it.

I even asked a few times about the status of the invoice, but he never answered to that question.

When he asked when will get the next units and I replied that I first need the payment of the first ones I sent him, he told me he can't pay it. This was the first time I heard about that as well.

But with an invoice and someone asking every couple of days when it will be paid, how can you think you'd get these units for free?

If he HAD that opinion, he could've talked about that when he got the units and the invoice, instead of ignoring all questions here.

We all know what happened after that - after 70 units ED stopped sending as he naturally needed money to pay for production, so it just reverted back to original slow finance-preorders-with-sales plan, effectively making remaining 1GHz queue part of main preorder queue.

Exactly.

It looks like right now sales are down a lot and this could be unmanageable..

ED will at least be able to clear his queue but that's of small comfort. I have the bad feeling that there may never be enough new 1GHz Pandoras sold to fund the old preorders, and recover investment money spent (plus interest). I hope I'm wrong :/

 Well, right now, it's not that bad. I sold over 40 1GHz units and 20 Classic Units within the last months.

A lot of great software is being released right now, more reviews will follow soon (I shipped out a few Pandoras to press and bloggers) and I'll also try to create more videos as soon as I find time and push it even more.

With donations and upgrades, I'm sure we can still clear quite a lot of them. However, I have no idea as well if we can easily clear all - how could I, not even knowing what's left...?

 

[Trip]

With donations and upgrades, I'm sure we can still clear quite a lot of them. However, I have no idea as well if we can easily clear all - how could I, not even knowing what's left...?

If it helps with the estimation a little; I've just emailed and asked my place in the craigs waiting list and been told that I'm in the next 150. I ordered on the 30th of January 2009.

 

[zapman]

I know it's not productive, but as there is some venting going on here now I'll add a bit of my own. The latest Craig's posts fueled a lot of bad feelings in me too that I still can't get rid of, I'm too involved with pandora to just not care and some steam has to go.

I don't know who his 'investors' are, I don't know his business plan and have minimal contact with him.

Well you don't know because you didn't care and never asked, your goal was to get out of the sinking pandora ship ASAP and not even think about it. That is until ED cooks his first 1GHz board, and that's when we see you again. As it smells money..

>
It's Ed who has been in charge for well over a year... how can I provide units when I don't make them? I have absolutely no control of production and Ed does not update me on what is going on.

Yeah right, no control whatsoever. But suddenly you appear out of nowhere and post this (less than 10 months ago):

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php?/topic/8510-1ghz-boards-fancy-one

This run of 150 is expensive, which is reflected in the price. These simply exist because there is a demand for them, even at this price. We know it's expensive and not for everyone - but they will help OP.

Oh how uninfomed and uninvolved you look in that thread! Just wow.


And sure this latest preorder thing of yours helped, but nobody knows what. We all know how that ended.


(in a response to ED)

yes you did some things we suggested, but all far too late. Christmas was the last real chance to promote the Pandora and you just did nothing.

Yeah sure, as you are incapable doing anything yourself ED must be the one to blame here as he must be sitting and doing nothing all day long, right? And yet when it comes to things like announcing 1GHz and directing people to your shop all your capabilities suddenly come back and ED is no longer needed..

Shame you never speak to any of us anymore

As if you ever did, over the whole years you absolutely *never* had interest or any talks about software matters, except skeezix in a few occasions.. If ED doesn't speak to you, it's because you don't show interest yourself, as it has been for years and years with certain aspects of this project..

And I told you over and over again when you were taking this over that the returns were coming in at an alarming rate, and yet here you posting that somehow that took you by surprise ...

This is a pure lie, no such posting exists.

There are a few hundred remaining outstanding orders at the last count.

it usually hovers around ~500

Oh man, make up your mind... Make up your miiiind..

thx for summing that up. I agree and want it to be read by many many people, that's why it should be quoted again and again! alternatively darkones capslock text could be quoted as well, I agree to that one, too!

 

[Null]

You say that - but clearly you haven't experienced the 'other side' of online threats.

No I haven't, but even if I had it wouldn't have changed my reaction.

 

[konqithedragon]

I know it's not what most people waiting want to hear...and some it's not an option.. but probably the best option is to pay to upgrade..

and as (sorry I forget the username) is doing... if you want a refund... probably best to buy an upgrade... then resell it... you will loose some money but at least you'll get some of it back...

 

[skeezix]

Yeah, thats it i think.. Upgrade now, to ED (reliable source) and keep or sell the unit. Get yourself out of limbo :/


Jefftiredout

 

[Trip]

If I had the money to upgrade I would have by now. It's not that easy when you don't have a big chunk of cash available.

If ED would allow paying off an upgrade monthly or bi-weekly then I would think about doing it; although I would still take Craig to court over being forced to upgrade or loosing my original money. That would then be a separate thing and nothing to do with the Pandora or this community though.

 

[Exophase]

4. With the money from the investors, production would be moved to Germany. A price had been calculated, based on 4000 produced Pandoras. That means: 4000 Pandoras out of which 1300 would go to the remaining preorder customers and 2700 would need to be sold to new customers. So the price was set to make enough profit with those 2700 units that all invested capital would be back (of course, I also calculated in some safety money in case something bad happens).

Okay, so this should mean that if someone ordered a Rebirth Pandora on Craig's store (from the stock of 2700 new sales) the entire customer purchase price (full margins) would be sent to you. Otherwise there would be no profit from which to manufacture the other 1300.

This is a very different scenario from Craig buying 1GHz units at cost, and those units shouldn't have anything to do with the 4000 in the second batch (either the 2700 or the 1300). I don't know what your stocks are like and if you'll eventually have to use 1GHz chips to fulfill the second batch orders or not, but that doesn't really change anything - so long as Craig purchases something at cost it can't count towards the 2700, and without enough of the 2700 sold he doesn't get more free units (certainly not 1GHz ones). And like you say, without Rebirth units being sold you can't send free units, it doesn't mean you're punishing Craig.

If Craig is interested in making his case against you here, as he seemed intent on doing, then he's going to have to point out in very clear language what's wrong with what you're saying.. not like it makes much difference at this point..

Anyway thanks for clearing it up more, I know you must be getting tired repeating all this stuff to those of us who are having a hard time understanding.