I wonder how many man-hours of work all the manufacturers spend to make their hardware "just work" on Windows? Probably a countless amount. And MS certainly doesn't make it easier, randomly changing stuff year after year just because.
GPD Win (x86 Computer / Palmtop)
- Thread starter Xcl4m4t10n
- Start date
In the past, I remember reinstalling Windows as a matter of course when stuff went wrong. Now, if you buy a computer with Windows on it, it does not come with any CD/DVD/flash-stick, so it is much less straightforward reinstall (and, given that I hardly bother with Windows now and use GNU+Linux exclusively, I have not bothered to learn how one is supposed to carry out a fresh reinstall). Perhaps, if the average/power user is no longer expected to ever reinstall the operating system, Microsoft has no incentive to make things "just work" anymore -- that is now the OEM's job.
iprice
Certified Guru
TBF, as a Windows only user, it really is very straight forward to do fresh installs (windows asks you to create a restore "disc" (on USB stick) on first launching) or Restore to an earlier point, and connect up new (or old) gear nowadays. Yes, maybe the original product producer does have more hassle than the end-user, but you don't know that, and really do you actually care? I don't. It doesn't bother me how much of a problem it might have been for the producer of tech, as long as it works ootb for me.
And you know what, since before Windows XP, I've never had to use a Restore disks on any of my pcs or laptops.
For those of you moaning about how things used to be on Windows, installation-wise, yes you are correct - I've been there, got the t-shirts, including from ye olde MS-DOS days too. But they aren't like that now. Yes sure, Windows is a shitload of bloated spyware now, but for most users it's a piece of piss to get working with their stuff - software and hardware.
And you know what, since before Windows XP, I've never had to use a Restore disks on any of my pcs or laptops.
For those of you moaning about how things used to be on Windows, installation-wise, yes you are correct - I've been there, got the t-shirts, including from ye olde MS-DOS days too. But they aren't like that now. Yes sure, Windows is a shitload of bloated spyware now, but for most users it's a piece of piss to get working with their stuff - software and hardware.
The last time I had to use someone else's Windows (7) some game didn't work and I wasn't sure why until I got to know that a library is missing and I had to find and install it, ha!
It felt almost like (a very slow and ugly) Linux with the difference, that there was no Synaptic to easily find and install the library.
Imho the main difference between Linux und Windows these days is speed, RAM requirement, spyware, DRM and cost.
It felt almost like (a very slow and ugly) Linux with the difference, that there was no Synaptic to easily find and install the library.
Imho the main difference between Linux und Windows these days is speed, RAM requirement, spyware, DRM and cost.
iprice
Certified Guru
Yes, nothing's ever perfect. There are lots of reports on these forums about Linux not working too, with some games and hassles involved in sorting them.
For you, Linux is a piece of piss to use, for many Windows users Windows is a piece of piss to use. Most of the time - in both cases. In fact, just down from this post there's someone who's not been able to get Allegro working on Pandora. So being smug about Linux working and Windows not is not really fair.
For you, Linux is a piece of piss to use, for many Windows users Windows is a piece of piss to use. Most of the time - in both cases. In fact, just down from this post there's someone who's not been able to get Allegro working on Pandora. So being smug about Linux working and Windows not is not really fair.
Well, my main problem is that with Windows 10, there are many old driver you cannot use anymore.
I've got a Wacom Tablet with serial connector. Yes, it's old, but it still works fine. The last officially released driver was for Windows XP.
It didn't even work anymore with Windows Vista or 7, but by manually hacking around the driver, you could at least get it to work.
With Win 10, it's impossible it seems.
With Linux, it works out of the box. Install the Wacom drivers, connect it, and that's it.
Once a driver is included in Linux, it doesn't get lost or stop working in future Linux versions.
With Windows, it does. And that's not the only driver I had issues with.
Flashing a GP2x also is impossible with anything more recent than Windows XP.
That's my main problem. I know new Windows Versions are made for more recent hardware, but some older hardware could still be used on current Windows if they kept a compatibility stack for the drivers.
For me, this is seriously broken... and a big hassle to work with.
Another issue I have:
I just upgraded my PC. The only thing I kept was the harddisk.
With Linux, all I had to do was put the harddisk into the new system and boot. Everything worked out of the box. Perfect
With Windows...? You'd be lucky if it even boots. And then you'd need to reactivate it, search for all drivers, etc.
And finally:
If an installation totally crashes (and I mean totally, so not really fixable).
On Linux, I save the home and etc-directory as well as the installed packages as a list using a live disk, reinstall it, let it automatically reinstall the packages from the list, copy back the home directory and important configs from etc, and that's it.
System works again, with all users, programs, etc.
Usually takes 30 minutes - 1 hour.
On Windows...?
There's not even an easy way to boot with a live disk and save the config of the users.
And copying them back after an installation (where you also need to reinstall all programs manually!) is even more problematic, because of the weird permission system it has.
Usually, I expect about 3 - 4 hours until the system is reinstalled and MOST things should be configured again...
All that WAS better back with Windows XP.
So yeah, for me, Windows has become worse over time.
And it doesn't help that the UI is a mess.
Just the settings of Windows 10 are a mixture of old and new settings dialogues.
Depending on what settings you want to change, you get a totally different layout and style... they should've ported all old settings to the new UI as well.
For Printers, you even have TWO settings dialogues: The old and the new one.
The new one doesn't even seem to work properly (it often fails when installing a printer, while the old one works).
10 years ago, Windows users were making fun that with Linux, everything is a mess and the UI looks unfinished, as some programe ran with GTK and some using QT, and they all looked different.
Now this has switched around. Having GTK apps use the QT theme is no big deal whereas with Windows 10, old and new layouts and styles are even mixed in Microsofts very own settings management...
Oh boy...
I've got a Wacom Tablet with serial connector. Yes, it's old, but it still works fine. The last officially released driver was for Windows XP.
It didn't even work anymore with Windows Vista or 7, but by manually hacking around the driver, you could at least get it to work.
With Win 10, it's impossible it seems.
With Linux, it works out of the box. Install the Wacom drivers, connect it, and that's it.
Once a driver is included in Linux, it doesn't get lost or stop working in future Linux versions.
With Windows, it does. And that's not the only driver I had issues with.
Flashing a GP2x also is impossible with anything more recent than Windows XP.
That's my main problem. I know new Windows Versions are made for more recent hardware, but some older hardware could still be used on current Windows if they kept a compatibility stack for the drivers.
For me, this is seriously broken... and a big hassle to work with.
Another issue I have:
I just upgraded my PC. The only thing I kept was the harddisk.
With Linux, all I had to do was put the harddisk into the new system and boot. Everything worked out of the box. Perfect
With Windows...? You'd be lucky if it even boots. And then you'd need to reactivate it, search for all drivers, etc.
And finally:
If an installation totally crashes (and I mean totally, so not really fixable).
On Linux, I save the home and etc-directory as well as the installed packages as a list using a live disk, reinstall it, let it automatically reinstall the packages from the list, copy back the home directory and important configs from etc, and that's it.
System works again, with all users, programs, etc.
Usually takes 30 minutes - 1 hour.
On Windows...?
There's not even an easy way to boot with a live disk and save the config of the users.
And copying them back after an installation (where you also need to reinstall all programs manually!) is even more problematic, because of the weird permission system it has.
Usually, I expect about 3 - 4 hours until the system is reinstalled and MOST things should be configured again...
All that WAS better back with Windows XP.
So yeah, for me, Windows has become worse over time.
And it doesn't help that the UI is a mess.
Just the settings of Windows 10 are a mixture of old and new settings dialogues.
Depending on what settings you want to change, you get a totally different layout and style... they should've ported all old settings to the new UI as well.
For Printers, you even have TWO settings dialogues: The old and the new one.
The new one doesn't even seem to work properly (it often fails when installing a printer, while the old one works).
10 years ago, Windows users were making fun that with Linux, everything is a mess and the UI looks unfinished, as some programe ran with GTK and some using QT, and they all looked different.
Now this has switched around. Having GTK apps use the QT theme is no big deal whereas with Windows 10, old and new layouts and styles are even mixed in Microsofts very own settings management...
Oh boy...
rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
ElPoco
Hardcore Member
My father sometimes had trouble maintaining his Windows computer and was scared of viruses. I've installed Linux on his computer. He had new, different problems, and is now scared of an update breaking his system (as has happened a few times).
Both Linux and Windows have their quirks and problems. The biggest upside I see to Linux for most users is that they're far less likely to install a spyware/malware/malicious toolbar/plug-in/app on Linux than on Windows.
Both Linux and Windows have their quirks and problems. The biggest upside I see to Linux for most users is that they're far less likely to install a spyware/malware/malicious toolbar/plug-in/app on Linux than on Windows.
A bit off-topic but I have bought cheaply such an old Wacom serial tablet and converted it to USB. This requires a Teensy and some light soldering. The tablet then is USB powered (no more AC/DC bloc+serial+serial->USB converter) and pretends to be a native USB Wacom, supported by more recent drivers. If you're interested I can find the name of the project. It is making the tablet usable on recent windows and much more handy to use even on Linux since you just need a USB cable.
I converted my parents' computer to Linux 7 or 8 years ago. They run Xubuntu LTS, do the minor updates themselves and are instructed to not do the main ones. I'm doing the updates once every 2 years and have spent very little time maintaining this thing compared to the Windows installs they had before then.
Last edited:
fusion_power
Advanced Member
Maybe you could try to use old XP with the working driver over a VM? Just an idea, no clue if it works that way.
Alperoot
Welcome! Welcome to Airstrip 17.
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2015
- Messages
- 642
This seems really pointless. It's really hard to convince a long-time user to install Windows. I agree, Windows 10 really sucks, the tablet that school gave me is now giving out no audio and I've done nearly nothing on it. I really like Linux, all the freedom and such but as a 3-Year Windows 8.1 user, I won't install Linux on my computer. I've got 800 GB of data (and I know, that might not sound a lot to some of you) and most of them are Windows games/programs. Rather than losing all that stuff, I would install Linux on a VM and think that I am not an important person, what would change in my life if Microsoft spying on me? I already use Google's mail and mobile OS, I already go to places that have cameras and one day if the government makes it obbligatory to put survelliance cameras on houses )maybe not really) there is not much I can do. But in the end, life is short (even I lived 1/5 of it) so why bother such small things?
)maybe not really) there is not much I can do. But in the end, life is short (even I lived 1/5 of it) so why bother such small things?
iprice
Certified Guru
I get what you are saying, I do. And I agree. Windows now is a very different beast to what it was a year ago, two years go. Five years ago. But then so is the world around us. Technology changes constantly. Why would you want to install old drivers in new tech? Just because you have an old device? You wouldn't buy a new car and install a 8-track system. Let's face it Microsoft and Windows isn't the worst offender for this - Apple are far worse for deliberate obsolescence. And most tech, less than 5 years old (which is a pretty given lifespan for any consumer product), will still work properly under Windows.
I never said that Windows was better, or perfect - I clearly state that it isn't. I just stated that it is, on the whole, is more stable and reliable than it's ever been.
My Mum has been running and auto-updating Windows for years on a creaky old laptop, and is a complete computer noob. I've never had to maintain the thing for her (yeah, it's probably full of junk and other crap she's picked up along the way), but it keeps on chugging. What exactly are you saying? You are just confirming what I said - older Windows systems aren't as reliable as newer ones.
At the moment. The same was said of Apple until fairly recently. The more people start using these OSs the more chance there are of users creating unwanted and malicious software for them.
I'm not defending Microsoft or Windows - my route to Windows 10 wasn't a choice I wanted to make (I'd still be working with Windows 7, if my old laptop hadn't died), but a lot of you really are living in the past where old Windows issues are perhaps still clouding your judgment. And yeah, I've been there too! I am not, and never have been platform-centric - whether that be computer, consoles, handhelds or mobile.
Anyway, I'm not here trying to convince anyone that Windows is THE way, we've all got a choice and that's a good thing. Just imagine if Apple was the ONLY way. Shudder!
DrHAX
T̶h̶e̶ ̶A̶u̶t̶h̶o̶r̶ The Artist
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2013
- Messages
- 850
One of the things that amazed me about Linux was what EDvwas saying. The swapping of drives and it works. I had a stack of colour coded laptop drives back in 2008 which I swapped at will to try different distros and experiment. With five different computers.( Heck I used one to save files from fubar Windows machines.)
Including an old laptop I hacked a wifi card into. Back around the time where wi-fi drivers were apparently a lost cause. It was quite simple and hilarious. That Pentium 3 Ibm laptop lasted me a long time. It's amazing how much "easier" Linux is now.
I don't like working with Windows now. 10 feels almost the same as Mac OS. That's not a positive.
Including an old laptop I hacked a wifi card into. Back around the time where wi-fi drivers were apparently a lost cause. It was quite simple and hilarious. That Pentium 3 Ibm laptop lasted me a long time. It's amazing how much "easier" Linux is now.
I don't like working with Windows now. 10 feels almost the same as Mac OS. That's not a positive.
Last edited:
...yes? If an old device still works for the tasks I want to throw at it, why should I get a new one? Sometimes I also love using old tech for nostalgia or "history lessons" (I was born in '94, so there's not as much old tech for me to be nostalgic about, but it's sometimes great to look back at what technology was like before I was born) and if some drivers don't work, it's always annoying to use virtual machines just for some stupid incompatibility of Windows 10.
[doublepost=1473871854,1473871733][/doublepost]
The repo system lowers this risk a lot, but yes, if people want some software from external sources, the risk is getting higher the more people use it. With Linux you're at least not completely dependant on these external sources.
Oh really? Wacom tablets have had problems for years on Windows:
http://viziblr.com/news/2011/8/14/the-ultimate-guide-to-making-your-wacom-tablet-work-on-windo.html
http://viziblr.com/news/2012/8/18/windows-8-rtm-and-wacom-tablets-even-more-flawed-than-before.html
Only an update from Wacom managed to solve the problem:
http://viziblr.com/news/2013/6/23/the-windows-and-wacom-tablet-nightmare-is-over.html
Remember what I said about manufacturers having to solve problems caused by Windows?
Heh even software makers had to introduce their own workarounds:
https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/kb/tablet-support-faq-photoshop.html#Overview of possible issues
Manually creating a config file in Windows? Awesome.
Mainstream use cases (web browsing, email, office docs, pc gaming) usually work well because they are so widely used. But step a little out of the mainstream and problems immediately start to pop-up.
Linux is not nearly as mainstream, that things work to the degree they do today is frankly impressive.
And guess who has to pay for all that extra work? The consumer. It's like those credit cards which offer incentive to users. Those incentive come straight out of fees charged to the businesses. Logically the businesses need to raise prices to compensate for that.
The Wacom tablet is still great, buying one the same size with the same features would cost 300 EUR, so it's kinda a bummer the driver doesn't work anymore with Windows 10. That USB project is something I'll look into, but I don't want to spend more than 10 or 15 EUR for that.
I never said Windows was bad, btw.
I really liked XP (it was pretty stable), Win7 was really usable as well but during the last year I've seen more Windows system break with OS updates than Linux systems.
I've had to reinstall my own Windows 7 at work TWICE already as at some time it suddenly had issues with updating. I tried all fixes I could find (and I know what I'm doing), but only a full reinstall fixed things...
I've installed Linux on my sisters and parents computer as well as on the computer of my sister-in-law. They never had any problems with it. It runs flawlessly, doesn't catch virusses from emails, doesn't kill itself with updates.
At the same time my colleague is fixing one Windows-PC at his family at least once a week.
Windows seems to get worse while Linux seems to improve. At least from my experience.
I never said Windows was bad, btw.
I really liked XP (it was pretty stable), Win7 was really usable as well but during the last year I've seen more Windows system break with OS updates than Linux systems.
I've had to reinstall my own Windows 7 at work TWICE already as at some time it suddenly had issues with updating. I tried all fixes I could find (and I know what I'm doing), but only a full reinstall fixed things...
I've installed Linux on my sisters and parents computer as well as on the computer of my sister-in-law. They never had any problems with it. It runs flawlessly, doesn't catch virusses from emails, doesn't kill itself with updates.
At the same time my colleague is fixing one Windows-PC at his family at least once a week.
Windows seems to get worse while Linux seems to improve. At least from my experience.
iprice
Certified Guru
Really? You do surprise me
Of course consumers have to pay and will do, if they think th product is worth it. Do you honestly care how much time and effort I put into my games (which are all free, btw)? The answer will of course be "No." And why should you?As for the Wacom driver issue, well I can't answer that. Perhaps the Wacom drivers were crap to start with and didn't conform to specified standards? Seriously, shit software does exist you know. I don't know. There are a million and one reasons why things don't work. Maybe it was Wacom. Maybe it was Windows... You don't know.
iprice
Certified Guru
Yeah, XP was good (and still is, I use it at work - the NHS paid for continued support for XP), but I liked Win7 too. Win 8.XX and onwards - yeah, can we roll back the clock, please?
Grench
Forum Addict!
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2008
- Messages
- 6,629
I have had that same/parallel experience. When my extended family was running Windows I was rebuilding at least one system per month. Then I switched them to Linux. Since then they can still do everything they did before - except blow up the OS.
Now the issue is that the collective lot of them has been running for 4+ years and I need to go through and do a mass series of OS upgrades. Not that it will be all that difficult - just time consuming. With having the luxury of being able to schedule such things, they tend less likely to get done. If it isn't broken it doesn't get attention as quickly.
