GPD WIN 2


I understand the tech here, and I am still quite floored by how well this device is performing. Pyra is going to have some pretty stiff competition, say what you will about Windows bloat, inefficiency etc, this device is showing damn impressive actual results.

True, but it depends whether it's a competition for you or not.
I particularly don't like if you need to setup everthing manually (controls, graphics quality, etc.) and especially if you need to install things (which takes a while) and uninstall them again.
Probably because I'm a console gamer :)
That's one of the reasons I still prefer the Pandora compared to the GPD Win at the moment (besides the keyboard and the controls, which are way worse on the GPD Win than on the Pandora).

That's what I like about the Pandora and the Pyra with the PND / DBP system: It's like a video games console. Put the game on the card and you know it will run. Without setup, installation or anything else :)

I can understand others who love to play Windows games - they will definitely love the GPD Win 2.
But I don't even like playing Windows games on a desktop PC - simply because all those setting up annoys me. I prefer the PS4 and my other consoles :)

So yes, it's a competition for some - and not for others.
 
ED smilie count +3

I hear he gets 0.05 euros from the emoticon people every time he helps them in their eternal struggle against the dreaded emoji.
 
True, but it depends whether it's a competition for you or not.
I particularly don't like if you need to setup everthing manually (controls, graphics quality, etc.) and especially if you need to install things (which takes a while) and uninstall them again.
Probably because I'm a console gamer :)
That's one of the reasons I still prefer the Pandora compared to the GPD Win at the moment (besides the keyboard and the controls, which are way worse on the GPD Win than on the Pandora).

That's what I like about the Pandora and the Pyra with the PND / DBP system: It's like a video games console. Put the game on the card and you know it will run. Without setup, installation or anything else :)

I can understand others who love to play Windows games - they will definitely love the GPD Win 2.
But I don't even like playing Windows games on a desktop PC - simply because all those setting up annoys me. I prefer the PS4 and my other consoles :)

So yes, it's a competition for some - and not for others.
I am on your preorder list for the pyra, and am still waiting patiently to get it, and will also get a win 2. Just putting that out there.

It's not a competition for me specifically, but in general it will be for your device. Yours depends an awful lot on the community of consumers. Less people buying the device simply means it's less attractive to developers and consequently makes it less attractive to consumers in a weird self defeating cycle.

I am truly not trying to shit on the project, I'm just pointing it out. I hope you aren't blinding yourself to what is objectively vastly superior performance in areas some people might be wanting the pyra (emulation and gaming) Pyra has a lower cost, which is strange to think about a Pandora like console as being the economic option, but that's will be a strength. More modular upgrade options are another big plus. The close knit community and support is probably the single strongest point. I would hit those points in your marketing of the pyra.

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I am not sure anymore. I would rather get a Pyra with a more powerful CPU-GPU at this point since I think so much time has gone by and the OMAP5 seems outdated.
 
The WIN 2 (Inc VAT) should be a bit cheaper or the same price as the 4G PYRA(Inc VAT). But it's a bit hard to tell when neither are out for retail sale yet.
 
I will just get both and let usage decide. The main advantage of the Pyra is its 4G and GPS, but I expect that battery life and keyboard feel are going to be a deciding factor.
 
That's what I like about the Pandora and the Pyra with the PND / DBP system: It's like a video games console. Put the game on the card and you know it will run. Without setup, installation or anything else :)
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree here. In terms of "installation", you can't just dump a PND anywhere on your SD card, you have to conform to a specific folder structure. You also have no method of configuring the resulting launcher menu (ie, say I wanted to put VICE in a Games->VICE menu, I can't). The original Vice PND dumped a dozen icons in the menu for the different Commodore systems it emulates, and there's no way to ditch off the ones you don't care about.

Some games also require you to copy the data into the /Pandora/AppData/[Package] folder - which isn't created until the game is run once (unless you happen to know the underlying package name so you can pre-create the folder). A far better option would have been on executation "Please point me to the game data path" and store that path in the appdata folder in a config file.

I'm sorry, I like the Pandora, but you can't just plug an SD card in the slot and it boots up like a Gameboy
 
Agreed. The PND system was a royal PITA, both for users and developers. And that damned menu - don't even get me started on that.
 
Yep, would love to get rid of all the stuff in the "Documentation" menu. I have never once looked at it. I also wish the Pandora OS was more minimal, there is a ton of stuff that I have never used and it is kind of a pain to remove.
 
The WIN 2 (Inc VAT) should be a bit cheaper or the same price as the 4G PYRA(Inc VAT). But it's a bit hard to tell when neither are out for retail sale yet.

Yes, but it'll be more expensive than the non-4G Pyra. And the Pyra will eventually get cheaper the more buyers we have - don't forget we've got 250 EUR per unit in that price right now that were development costs. The production itself is expensive, but not THAT expensive.
GPD doesn't have that issue, as development is probably cheaper (chinese wages + they can do a lot themselves and don't need 3rd party companies) AND the demand will be a lot higher, so they'll easily sell a few thousand via Kickstarter.

If I had 3000 preorders, I could lower the Pyra's price to probably 450 EUR for the 4G unit.
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I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree here. In terms of "installation", you can't just dump a PND anywhere on your SD card, you have to conform to a specific folder structure. You also have no method of configuring the resulting launcher menu (ie, say I wanted to put VICE in a Games->VICE menu, I can't). The original Vice PND dumped a dozen icons in the menu for the different Commodore systems it emulates, and there's no way to ditch off the ones you don't care about.

You can. You can edit the config file for PND locations, if you like, we just added a default.

Also, with the override function, you could easily disable the icons and location for programs like VICE.
You probably didn't know about, but that works :)

Yes, it had it's flaws, but for me it did work.

Tell me: If my GPD Win breaks and I get a new one, can I simply put my old SD Card in and have instantly all games setup as before? That works in the Pandora (and Pyra), but not for the Win.

On exhibitions (like the Gamescom), we made multiple copies of the SD Card for the Pandora and easily had everything setup. On the GPD Wins, we had to install every game on every single unit manually... urgh!

Some games also require you to copy the data into the /Pandora/AppData/[Package] folder - which isn't created until the game is run once (unless you happen to know the underlying package name so you can pre-create the folder). A far better option would have been on executation "Please point me to the game data path" and store that path in the appdata folder in a config file.

That the folder is being created when you run it is a bit of a flaw, but that could easily be fixed if it's being added to the crawler.

However, for games that need data, that's not a fault of the PND system.
Take a look at some of ptitSeb's PNDs (especially some of the GOG ones): Some tell you where to copy the data file, some ask for the archive and extract the files themselves into the needed directory.
That's something the developer has to do.

And it's no different on Windows: When you have programs like nxengine which need datafiles, you also need to copy them somewhere - a LOT of programs don't ask for a path but simply fail to run and tell you they need the datafiles.

So, for me, the PND system is far superior than any Windows-Setup-System.
Installation doesn't take longer than downloading the file, I can easily delete the application without losing the data, I can reset the data without losing the app, I can delete both and don't have ANY crap left.

On Windows... yeah. Most programs leave something behind, even if you uninstall them.

I'm sorry, I like the Pandora, but you can't just plug an SD card in the slot and it boots up like a Gameboy

Oh, I can send you my SD Card which you can put into a freshly reflashed Pandora and you'll have a nice setup of games, programs, emulators, etc. working out of the box, all properly categorized into the menu.
Should be over 100 games.

Can you send me an SD Card that has the same effect when I put it into my GPD Win?

How long does it take to install and configure over 100 games in your GPD Win. On the Pandora, once downloaded, nothing more needs to be done...
And updating works perfectly using the PND Manager... how long do you need to manually update the games on Windows?

And categorized? Well, some games on Windows use the companies name as folder name, some use the game name, some go into the main directory of the Startmenu... it's a lot more unorganized and confusing than on the Pandora.

Those are my experiences with Windows - but feel free to show me how I can handle everything as comfortable on Windows.
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Agreed. The PND system was a royal PITA, both for users and developers. And that damned menu - don't even get me started on that.

Don't speak for everyone here. I absolutely love it as a user and I have no problem creating PNDs myself.

Yep, would love to get rid of all the stuff in the "Documentation" menu. I have never once looked at it. I also wish the Pandora OS was more minimal, there is a ton of stuff that I have never used and it is kind of a pain to remove.

Well, you could simply edit the menu file for your user and remove the Documentation category. Done :)
And Pandoras OS is already pretty minimal... but if you really need to remove something, it can be done with one opkg remove command.

On Windows, try to completely remove Cortana or similar tools... now THAT'S a pain in the ass.
 
Tell me: If my GPD Win breaks and I get a new one, can I simply put my old SD Card in and have instantly all games setup as before? That works in the Pandora (and Pyra), but not for the Win

SD Card ? You can just swap the SSDs!
 
you have to conform to a specific folder structure.
I thought that this was mainly so the crawler and the overlay filesystem know where to look (and do it efficiently). This could be made configurable, such that you only need a config file in a fixed place.
You also have no method of configuring the resulting launcher menu
I don't remember if .desktop files were read from the data overlay, but this is a valid scenario. We should adapt that in the system for the Pyra, including a simple option of copying the default .desktop to the data directory.

<edit>Sigh, it is too long ago. There were OVR files which allowed you to change categories and thus where items would show up in the menu. I worked on an editor for that back in 2011, which was far from perfect but functioning at the time. I no longer know all the details nor do I have a testing environment where I could update it, but there is no black magic here.
</edit>
Some games also require you to copy the data into the /Pandora/AppData/[Package] folder - which isn't created until the game is run once (unless you happen to know the underlying package name so you can pre-create the folder). A far better option would have been on executation "Please point me to the game data path" and store that path in the appdata folder in a config file.
This is highly application specific. We cannot easily deal with that in a generic way.
I'm sorry, I like the Pandora, but you can't just plug an SD card in the slot and it boots up like a Gameboy
Yes you can. But who wants to have a card per game if you can have them all on a single card.

Most of the issues you raise are fixable. Don't pretend this is a closed source proprietary company, you are talking to the developers every day here. Go the the threads about these systems and make your wishes known.
 
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I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree here. In terms of "installation", you can't just dump a PND anywhere on your SD card, you have to conform to a specific folder structure. You also have no method of configuring the resulting launcher menu (ie, say I wanted to put VICE in a Games->VICE menu, I can't). The original Vice PND dumped a dozen icons in the menu for the different Commodore systems it emulates, and there's no way to ditch off the ones you don't care about.

Some games also require you to copy the data into the /Pandora/AppData/[Package] folder - which isn't created until the game is run once (unless you happen to know the underlying package name so you can pre-create the folder). A far better option would have been on executation "Please point me to the game data path" and store that path in the appdata folder in a config file.

I'm sorry, I like the Pandora, but you can't just plug an SD card in the slot and it boots up like a Gameboy
I'm sorry, where is that "unlike" button again?
 
I thought that this was mainly so the crawler and the overlay filesystem know where to look (and do it efficiently). This could be made configurable, such that you only need a config file in a fixed place.

It is just one configuration file - since the very first release of the OS :)
 
I am not surprised. I do not recall all the details anymore, but we spend quite some time on the PND system and a lot of scenarios were considered. It was pretty well thought out and well designed.

There is always room for improvement and if something is missing we will make it better for the Pyra.
 
Ah, yep. On the Win 2 :)
Not on the Win 1 :(

That's a good advantage here. But still, installing over 100 games takes... a couple of days (unless you own over 100 Steam games ;))
You can use the autorun in Windows for removable media to run a script to create the icons, could even get fancy and make a listener service included in that script that removes those same icons on eject.

Making apps portable for removable media or packaged preconfigured for the win would require just as much effort on the app porters for the Pandora pyra do right now.

The skill requirement on configuring a game, that isn't packaged for the win, for a Xbox controller, or setting quality settings falls in the "pain in the ass catagory" for a moderate skill computer user. Cross compiling an linux app, then making some of those same configs, for an app that isnt packaged for the pyra is probably unquestionably harder for that same user.

Not saying any of that stuff is in place for the win, but the problem is completely solveable, just requires a person with the drive to support useability for stupid and or lazyish computer users. I think the difference is the pandora/pyra is actually more friendly to your average low skill computer user, probably because of the "linux boogeyman" not despite of it.

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You can. You can edit the config file for PND locations, if you like, we just added a default.

Also, with the override function, you could easily disable the icons and location for programs like VICE.
You probably didn't know about, but that works :)
Where and how exactly can I do it? I find it really unconfortable not to be able to easily place my Pandora apps from menu to desktop or back or both or none, never found out how to do that except installing them right from the repo to the wanted locations. Why can't I just like in normal OS put a simple link on the Desktop with a simple right click or over the menu? Pandora is so complicated from my experience, I find Windows so much more comfortable in these things (usability, user-friendly etc.).
I also ad alot of configuration nightmares with various Pandora programs, they might run but emulators for instance need alot of hand adjustments after installing them or other programs don't run well without the right settings. Even worse, linking an file to an specific app that opens when you click the file is almost impossible on the Pandora. The entire File association thing which is so easy on other OS is also not user friendly at all on the Pandora! We have the Pandora-Wiki of course that helps, but for the Pyra I wish and expect a much better system than the PND system from the Pandora, you can't continue with that if you really want a user-friendly experience!
 
You can. You can edit the config file for PND locations, if you like, we just added a default.
I didn't know that, do you know the configuration file? I do vaguely remember seeing the paths inside the source code of the MiniMenu when I was working on my WiFi mod

Also, with the override function, you could easily disable the icons and location for programs like VICE.
You probably didn't know about, but that works :)
Actually, I did, but I couldn't get it to work...

Tell me: If my GPD Win breaks and I get a new one, can I simply put my old SD Card in and have instantly all games setup as before? That works in the Pandora (and Pyra), but not for the Win.
Well, it looks like this one has a removal drive, so yes, I guess so.

That the folder is being created when you run it is a bit of a flaw, but that could easily be fixed if it's being added to the crawler.

However, for games that need data, that's not a fault of the PND system.
Take a look at some of ptitSeb's PNDs (especially some of the GOG ones): Some tell you where to copy the data file, some ask for the archive and extract the files themselves into the needed directory.
That's something the developer has to do.
As somebody who produced PNDs for the Pandora, I'm well aware of the pros and cons. I'm not even saying PNDs are bad, I'm just saying your analogy with console gaming is flawed.

And it's no different on Windows: When you have programs like nxengine which need datafiles, you also need to copy them somewhere - a LOT of programs don't ask for a path but simply fail to run and tell you they need the datafiles.
Correct, so the PNDs are no better (or worse)... I can copy my OpenXcom folder from Windows PC to Windows PC without reconfiguring or anything. Again, I'm trying to it's not the "plug and play" analogy you were referring to


Oh, I can send you my SD Card which you can put into a freshly reflashed Pandora and you'll have a nice setup of games, programs, emulators, etc. working out of the box, all properly categorized into the menu.
Should be over 100 games.
I'm glad for you, but how often does your Pandora need reflashing? I don't know how you managed to categorise them in the menu (unless you did manage to get some of the OVRs working).
But also, you still need to set that SD card up in the first place. You had to create the directory structures, copy the PNDs, and the game data files/ROMs... Sure, it's great now it's set up, but you still had to do it.

How long does it take to install and configure over 100 games in your GPD Win. On the Pandora, once downloaded, nothing more needs to be done...
Dunno, if you want to talk about 100 C64 games, I only configure VICE and/or CCS64 once. Steam takes care of a lot of my more recent games.

And updating works perfectly using the PND Manager... how long do you need to manually update the games on Windows?
Update? I don't. Steam does some, it's rare I update any of my emulators or other games.

And categorized? Well, some games on Windows use the companies name as folder name, some use the game name, some go into the main directory of the Startmenu... it's a lot more unorganized and confusing than on the Pandora.
Yep, but the installers (usually) let you configure this at install time.

Those are my experiences with Windows - but feel free to show me how I can handle everything as comfortable on Windows.
Why? You clearly aren't interested in Windows. I personally don't care for platform wars between Windows and Linux. I'd use Linux if my games ran on it, but they don't.


You seemed to get upset at my comment, I had in no way said the PND/DBP/Pandora/Pyra were crap or worse than GPD/Windows/Steam/etc.. I can see pros and cons to both systems, but I think you underplayed how much configuring/setup you do for some PNDs.



I thought that this was mainly so the crawler and the overlay filesystem know where to look (and do it efficiently). This could be made configurable, such that you only need a config file in a fixed place
Sure it is... and I understand exactly why it's like that... However, if you're new to the Pandora, and get a blank SD card, none of that is immediately apparent. I'm pretty sure the system didn't automatically create that folder structure for you on the card (but it's been a long time since I set up a clean one)


Yes you can. But who wants to have a card per game if you can have them all on a single card.
I agree, never said otherwise... I was trying to say that you can't just copy the PND to the SD card and it's instantly runnable... Things still need to be set up

Most of the issues you raise are fixable. Don't pretend this is a closed source proprietary company, you are talking to the developers every day here. Go the the threads about these systems and make your wishes known.
I'm not pretending these aren't fixable, I'm not even "complaining", as I've got my Pandora set up and running... all I was saying is that it's not just "Put the game on the card and you know it will run. Without setup, installation or anything else" as ED said... A fair number of PNDs still need setting up

I'm sorry, where is that "unlike" button again?
I don't know why you're quoting me, I don't run these boards. You're best asking ED.
 
The above few pages of this thread are brought to you by First World Problems. There are now choices in the pocket clamshell computer space and people can now argue about which one is best based on their own arbitrary requirements.

We like having choices - until someone disagrees with our own flawed choice and tries to prove to us how wrong we are based on their own flawed choices.

Pyra Vs. Win2 Vs. Gemeni .... Fight!
Windows Vs. OSX Vs. Linux Vs. Chrome OS .... Fight!
Apple Vs. Android Vs. Other .... Fight!

Each of these devices coming on the scene has it's own strengths.
Pyra - 10 hours of console gaming - gaming controls - 4G data - Linux.
Win2 - 4 hours of Steam gaming - gaming controls - Windows.
Gemini - Android/Debian dual boot - 4G phone - Psion-like keyboard - more phone-like in pocket size.

I'm in for the Pyra and the Gemini. The Win2 doesn't really interest me - too big, no 4G, don't like Windows. We all have our own priorities.
 
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