Discussion in 'Everything else' started by vcoleiro1, Oct 18, 2017.
Because this button doesn't exist, and that's my way to "unlike" your post.
That's not the point.
You could even compile the PND system for Windows and use that.
The problem is: It's not the standard. If I get a game, I usually get a setup.exe which needs to be installed (which can take a long time).
Instead of just downloading and starting it on the Pandora.
Yes, of course it does, and that's exactly my point!
On the Pandora, you NEED to do that and therefore, everything you download for the Pandora usually is optimized for it, has the controls preconfigured, etc.
And as it doesn't need a setup, you can quickly test games. Put the PND on the card and delete it if you don't like it. That's it.
Yes, you have a lot less stuff on the Pandora, but you can be sure it runs fine out of the box (I know there are some apps that don't work like that, but 99% do).
For Windows, you download, install, setup the game controls, fiddle with the graphics settings, maybe find out the PC is too slow to run it, deinstall it again, etc.
And as all apps exists for Windows usually, no one would ever create an optimized GPD Win port.
I started gaming on the VCS2600. Then the C64, Amiga, NES, MegaDrive, SuperNES.
Then the Amiga was dead and PC gaming came around.
The problem for me: As each PC was different, a lot of games didn't properly work on mine - which I only found out when trying them.
Playing games on the PC was so annoying - I was mostly busy setting up the games, trying to optimize them so they would be playable.
That's when I stopped playing games on the computer and switched over console gaming.
Put in the game and it simply works.
And that's still the case for the Pandora: Download the game and it works.
I tried playing Civiization 5 on the GPD Win: It ALMOST works. With lowest settings, it's okay, but for some reason, it doesn't run with fullscreen.
DOSBox also had the rotation bug. Many older PC games also had issues with the rotation, etc.
It was PC Gaming all over again: I was more busy trying to get the games I wanted to play to work than I actually played them.
So I gave up here.
Yes, I know some don't care about that. But I do. I'm annoyed by that, especially as installing and uninstalling games is so slow on Windows.
That's why I love the plug and play system that PNDs provide.
Then let me know how to get Civiilzation 5 to work on the GPD Win in fullscreen without a lot of fiddling around. Thanks!
It is NOT solvable, as it would not only require such a package system but also devs offering their games and apps for that format.
No one would do that, as setup.exe works fine for them.
On a sidenote : I've never seen Steam installing a game, it's finished as soon as it's downloaded. Still, I'm having trouble understanding what are we arguing against in the first place. It should be clear by now that Pyra is a BIG no for the majority of Steam users. It just won't run anything without the need of an extra emulator or something. Win, on the other hand, doesn't have the oppurtunity of having a community-made PND repo-like store, where apps are usually plug-and-play.
I do get where ED is coming from on this. I just got a new G29 USB racing steering wheel. So, I got on Steam (for Linux) and purchased and downloaded two games to play with it. It is one of the top 2 wheel controllers in the world - compatibility shouldn't be an issue.
Wheel ends up with a 20% dead zone in the center. With a wheel that can go 900* from lock to lock this means that a full 180* arc in the middle does nothing. There is no way that I have found to configure the game around this.
European Trucking Simulator (I wanted to drive a right hand vehicle on the left side)
Wheel works great - but any use of 3/4 of the buttons on it results in a complete game crash.
So far I have spent 8-10 hours downloading and trying to configure these Steam driving games to work with a steering wheel. It shouldn't be that hard.
That's what the Wiki is for:
"The libpnd config files are in /etc/pandora/conf in the NAND. Generally you will never need to alter these files, but you certainly can if you wish. In theory, obliterating the files will still leave the system working, and they are easily restored. One file, /etc/pandora/conf/desktop defines the "search paths" to look for .pnd files, and where to put ".desktop" files when they are found. The searchpaths says where to find them (such as /pandora/desktop), and where to put the application link - /usr/share/applications is where the menu items are pulled from. IF you wish to put pnd files somewhere not in the searchpath, just add the directory to the search-path and you're good to go."
Well... except that Windows 10 will probably deactivate itself if you put your old SSD into a new device...
When I buy a game on the PS4 store, it downloads and I can play it.
It's the same on the Pandora. I choose the game, download it and play it.
Using Windows, this works with Steam, but not if you buy it from other sources... and then you still need to configure the controls, the video detail settings for your machine, etc.
Of course, PNDs that can't have copyrighted files (roms, bios, data files, etc.) included are something different, but that's not the fault of the packager nor the PND system.
The difference is:
For Windows, the NORMAL way is to install a program using setup.exe, then configure everything.
For the Pandora, the NORMAL way is to download a game and it works without any setup and usually is preconfigured.
Again, I'm talking about standard stuff here, not things that need data files, roms, etc. as these ALWAYS require more work on ANY system.
I'm usually fine with the category by the maintainer, as they usually are correct.
But I created a few OVRs for some games, yes. Never had issues here.
If you run the SD Creator tool on the Pandora (included in the OS), it automatically creates the directories.
Also, AFAIR, PNDManager also automatically creates the directories.
So insert an empty SD Card, start the PNDManager, download a random game onto the SD Card and that simply works.
Nope, games, not emulators.
Like Frogatto, Hase, Hydra Casle Labyrinth, etc.
Ookay... I love to keep my stuff updated, and on my Windows machine, this usually takes one day per month whereas on Linux and the Pandora, this simply works automatically.
Where the game will be in the start menu?
I've not seen that yet (only the install location).
It's not a platform war I wanted to start here.
It was mentioned that the PND system was crap and a mess to use, whereas everything is great under Windows (at least it sounded like that).
And I mentioned that I will probably not play games on the Win 2 (as I didn't play games on the Win) simply because it's so much hazzle to set everything up and don't see it as competition, as a lot of people probably also think like me in that regards.
Though I can understand why someone wants to get the Win 2 (because he WANTS to play Windows games).
That's all there is to it.
I'm not trying to make the GPD Win 2 look bad, I'm just trying to tell you why I love a system like the PND system and dislike the whole Windows-Setup-Stuff.
Which PND that is not an emulator or a game engine requiring commercial data files does need more configuration on the Pandora?
Every Pandora has a Quick Start Manual on the desktop on first boot which explains that to install games, you should run the PNDManager.
Once you run that, it automatically creates the directories and downloads the games onto the SD Card and they simply work.
How could it be easier?
Even on Android it's more complex as you need to create a Google Play account first.
And on Windows, you first need to find a place where to get the games...
In 99% only, if it can't be made better because of legal issues (like data files or Roms).
Which is NOT a flaw of the PND system but a legal issue.
Everything else usually works out of the box (except for maybe some VERY old quickly done ports).
But it IS like that.
--- Double Post Merged, Dec 29, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 29, 2017 ---
That sums it up pretty well, yes!
It's the problem of flexible systems like PCs: Sure, it's great you can customize everything - but it also usually also means that you have a lot more work configuring everything.
A fixed system (like the Amiga, C64, etc.) has everything optimized for it. Boot a game on any Amiga and it usually plays exactly the same and doesn't need setup.
That's also the case on the Pandora.
The GPD Win 1/2 would also be a fixed system - but the OS it uses is a standard OS, so it doesn't know anything about that.
So you instantly have a HUGE library of games and programs, but a lot of them might not work or needs some configuring.
And since Windows usually needs installing / deinstalling (and I've seen games that take 20 minutes or longer to install!), this is VERY time consuming...
You want a system with a HUGE library and are fine configuring a each title? Get a GPD Win!
You want a system with a limited but optimized and preconfigured library, as each title needs to be ported to it? Get a Pandora or Pyra.
It's that easy.
--- Double Post Merged, Dec 29, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 29, 2017 ---
Actually, I don't base my mobile device purchase decision on gaming at all. Gaming is a spare time bonus feature. Controls quality (keyboard, etc), display, local storage space capability, connectivity (WiFi, 4G, Ethernet dongle) are more important to me than games.
We all have different priorities.
So, if CIV 5 had an open source engine that allowed you to direct to the licesenced bits then maybe someone could make a package similar to how the Pandora does it that was configured for the win specifically...
But.. the argument you are making appears partially because of closed source software. You can't actually blame EA or valve(steam) for not targeting the win, or the pandora, or arm linux for that matter, because their software doesnt work perfectly out of the box on either device.
Not sure what you think the limitation is, but you can actually solve this problem, if the community actually saw it as a problem, and took open source games and packaged them for the win. There is no actual magic happening on the Pandora in this situation. The magic is the man behind the curtain if you will. (app porters and community devs) software would be a pain in the ass to compile yourself on the pandora.
For 3rd party stuff, you could make a script or program that configured games installed from steam and move it plus dependencies over to your SD card. Would be extremely hard, but is totally possible. Nvidia does something slightly similar and auto configs 3rd party games from steam etc with optimal settings for your specific video card.
Let me ask you, when a proper linux software repository works on the pyra, is it going to kill the pnd store? Obviously those programs wont be in pnd format. The argument about needing to run pnd because it's the mostly only source of games, will no longer be the situation, any discussion on the splinter in the software ecosystem? Saying the win is too easy to install standard software, so no special repo is required, yet is too cumbersome to install and configure correctly, (even more yet) nobody will bother making a repo because it's not required. Something doesn't quite add up in the logic here. Yes it is possible, it is just not likely to happen. Configuring software, mostly pain in the ass, rare instances, extremely difficult to impossible. Probably the same for Pandora games if you asked the people porting them.
Windows would need the equilivent of the linux boogeyman for the support community to step in and make a software repo and a system similar to the pnd system with packaged preconfigured games.
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I still use my Pandora weekly, and will continue to do so for 8-16bit emulation. That said, the Win2 looks fantatsic, and will be really good for 32bit emulation and steam games.
If the Pyra comes out, I wonder what role it will play in terms of games, i.e where it can provide an experience the Pandora cannot, but same time I wonder how the OMAP SoC competes with the Win2.
Undeclocking the Win2 for extra battery life will also be interesting to see.
Hopefully I will buy both Pyra and Win2 and get to see for myself. I have 50+ steam games and a mobile gaming PC is a great prospect!
No, I'm not blaming them.
They can't do anything about that as the PC is a customizable system. It's not "fixable".
But that's nothing anyone can change.
The advantage that a PC is customizable is also it's biggest disadvantage in terms of usage.
As every PC is different, developers CANNOT create games that work on all systems.
For fixed systems like a PSP, PS Vita, PS4, Pandora, etc., this disadvantage doesn't exist, as every program will be written / ported specifically to the target device.
Yes, the disadvantage is that you have a lot less games, but the advantage is that it simply works.
As for the setup stuff:
That's not the developers fault either. If Microsoft had a proper package management included years ago, this mess would not have happened.
Now every developer has it's own install / update / etc. routines.
Origin, Steam, Adobe Creative Cloud, GOG, etc.
Each program has it's own package manager!
My hope was for Microsoft to fix that with the switch to 64bit, so that there would be a similar system to Linux where developers add repositories and there's one update manager...
But it's still the same old setup mess, and that's annoying.
But nothing that developers can change either.
How? How can anyone fix that if this is simply the cause because a PC is customizable and runs Windows?
How could the community offer programs like the Creative Cloud or games as package files that won't need any setup?
They can't. It's as easy as that. That's the problem.
Well, something like a compatibility list program which would work similar to the PNDManager:
That app would list all confirmed and working games with configurations. Then you choose to install it and it's pre-setuo.
That would be an adequate solution that could work... with a LOT of work.
Most games aren't in the debian repo.
The repo usually has stuff like FireFox, Libreoffice, etc. in there which doesn't need any configuration.
For gaming, the DBP system will mostly be used, and this offers optimized games.
I've got the feeling no one here seems to understand me correctly.
I'm NOT saying the GPD Win 1/2 or any developer is at fault that it doesn't work as comfortable as on the Pandora / Pyra.
I'm simply saying that it is the case, and it can't easily be fixed as every PC is customizable and every game for the Pandora / Pyra is specifically ported to it (which is more comfortable to the end user).
It's the reason I compare the GPD Win to a PC and the Pandora / Pyra to a console when it comes to gaming.
The GPD Win runs standard PC Games and the Pandora / Pyra runs optimized ports, similar like consoles.
Is that THAT hard to understand?
From xseed games, preconfigured for the GPD Win.
... and? What does that have to do with all that?
I have no clue what you all are talking about, seriously. Can you sum it up for a simple minded reader?
I am just so happy about the Win 2. The SSD and CPU are big improvements, as well as the enhanced build quality. I can't wait to hold it in my hands and I hope that it will be available for purchase on Dragonbox.de, just like the Win 1.
And regarding Pandora/Pyra vs Win1/2... I observed the Pandora since it's first announcement on a gamescom and although fascinated by the strong hardware (for it's time) I have never had a serious desire to buy one, simply because I am a Windows user who doesn't want to use any incarnation of Linux at all. That's why I am so happy that the GPD Win exists today and I guess there are many people who have read about the Pandora/Pyra over the years, without buying one, just because they only want a Windows device in this form factor.
Nevertheless, the Pandora movement can be proud for it's open-source approach and in the end, they are one of the main influences that have kept the idea of a modern UMPC alive. The GPD Win in it's consequence is just filling the niche of an UMPC with Windows and sadly, without any open-source amibitions.
So I guess... make love, not war?
Sure, I will sell it
You're a Windows gamer then, and that's totally okay
The whole installing, configuring, tweaking, uninstalling is just too annoying for me, so I'm more happy with a Pyra / Pandora, where the games are a lot less but more plug and play
Everyone can enjoy what he / she loves best
Neither was my intent, and I never said the PND was crap, nor that everything was better under windows. If you can find anything like that in my original post, please show me. I merely stated that things still need setting up.
Your examples of how you can run different tools to configure/prepare your SD cards, and the config file for where to find PNDs are, what I consider setup. As it's no more setting up than downloading and installing the itch.io app, then installing the apps/games from there. Alternatively, you can just download the zips and unzip them anywhere you like (though you won't get updates automatically)
In terms of in-game setup, well, that's still personal preference. Canseco's VICE PND has a custom layout for the Pandora, but I use a different setup; that's not really any different than me configuring a joypad with an itch.io game or what not.
I consider things like Gameboy games to have no installation/config, because firstly, you can't install it (unless you're using an everdrive or somesuch), and they frequently don't let you change the controls anyway (whether you want to or not; at least on older systems. I know Street Fighter on consoles these days let you pick button mappings). It's not a flaw that computers (PC, Pandora, Pyra, GPD etc.) are like this, it's a consequence of them being so flexible, but you can't pretend it isn't there.
Maybe that's just the way I look at it. ptitSeb can "unlike" me all he wants (maybe he thinks this was a dig at him?) but it's not... I just don't consider it the same as playing a game on a Gameboy, and that's fine with me, because these do so much more.
I understand what you are saying, I think I understood from your first response. I think the problem is in how each of us view these types of devices. I view game consoles that have actual closed gardens on the software it can run, differently than pc's and "hacked" consoles. Basically anything that doesn't have a signed code requirement. I lump all that into the open ecosystem, if you can think it, you can do it. I don't view the Pandora in terms of closed game console.
You seem to view it as a fixed vs open (maybe open is not the right word) platform. Things specifically designed, vs things that can technically work.
I don't think either of us is right or wrong here, sounds like you think I'm wrong, and I'm saying "you are wrong that I am wrong" I do appreciate your stance though.
I feel virtually every program that has a Pandora port could also be ported to the win with some work. From the users perspective, they could plug in their sdcard, the icon shows up, run their *whatever*, feel like it was made for the device, and remove it when they are done. It could work like that with community support. Nothing technical is preventing that. That is all I am saying.
Since the win and the pyra/Pandora are also general use computers, you could also run unoptimised applications from 3rd party sources. Nothing is technically preventing them from that as well. They are similar in that way as well.
They are, and can be, very similar devices.
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On a side note:
The GPD Win just doesn't appeal to me with the keyboard and other design decisions, but I'd pay a good amount of money for an x86 CPU board for the Pyra.
Emulations only gets you so far and yes, there's probably enough titles to play for a lifetime but not everyone wants to play the same things. I don't need Windows, but full modern non-es OpenGL and good x86 compiled closed source Linux games would go a long way for me personally.
"Need" is a strong word actually. I'm happy with my Pandora and will be happy with the Pyra based on what I've got to try out so far, but it would add a lot value to the device to me, personally.
When I started reading about all this PND hate, I was almost sure to be on the wrong site...
but then I learnt, from a dragon, things that I didn't know about this system, so I had the clue that the site was the right one !! yeah
I really liked PNDs because I was able to open them and do WTF I wanted to do with the files inside them... with Steam it's not so simple (if even possible) to move things away from the expected position... but still I have to do settings for the graphic card and all my preferences... OR do manual corrections for games working BAD by default (real example: DEAD SPACE, UNPLAYABLE, mouse super slow and frame rate fucked up... no in-game configuration changed a thing... I had to go to the game folder, find the configuration file and modify it by hand using some undocumented parameters I luckily found on the internet...)
on the other hand, never happened to me to find a not working PND (but if that's the case, mainly you just PM the author and most of the time he will just correct it)
Anyway I like too the GPD Win 2, but for a different use-case, I can't even try to compare it to the Pyra, it's like to compare a Ferrari with a Hummer to find out what is the best car !!
To be fair, you can set up multiple locations to act as Steam library folders and move the game folder there at any point in time (and symlinks always work if nothing else). Modding the files is also no issue since they're not touched unless overwritten by an update or by validating the files (obviously).
The state of the software on the platform is mostly unrelated to the platform unless it's extremely curated and closed off, which doesn't apply to Steam nowadays either.
Wally will have to make a new gif showing the GPD WIN kissing the PYRA.
It appears only after you like a post
However, I suspect you were actually looking for the "dislike" button which isn't anywhere on these boards. Might be a plugin though, I dunno.
Separate names with a comma.