Getting together for developing a Game?

[foxblock]

Okay guys, who here is talking about the actual game? All I see is tech talk, which is fine and probably necessary, but parallax layers don't make a good game, they never will - only gameplay does!


Sure you need to have a solid framework, but who of the people trying things out is actually going to stick around to program the actual game?


I like that different approaches are tested and we can probably find the best performing engine for the Pandora (it's a really interesting test), but this will not bring the project forward.


One guy (or maybe two) has to step forward willing to program the game and then he just has to take his favourite engine and start programming the actual game (because as we have seen, some people will not use a specific tech, regardless of how well it performs, just because they are familiar with something else - which is fine!).


If the final engine won't have enough power for three parallax layers, well then you cannot have three parallax layers, but you know what? That does not matter, because the gameplay will be great and thus nobody notices this "deficit".


Now all you are going to get is a neat engine with loads of effects, but no game.


Please continue this discussion, as I've said, I personally find it very interesting.


But for the sake of actually getting a community project done, start with the damn game already!


Now there is plenty of interest, now you can get people together, there already is a lot of well working tech out there ready to use (and as you can see no approach hugely outpowers the others), there is no time to waste, because in a few weeks time interest will have faded, people will have gone silent and you will end up with a half-working engine, no active team members and no game.


I really want to see a community project succeed and this one at least has the potential in man-power (I don't know how well ideas are forming behind the scenes), but you are making the same mistakes I have made myself and seen other people make plenty of times...


As I have said earlier, form a small team of highly willing and skilled people and start working, it's the only way to succeed. Usually broad discussion like this won't bring you anywhere (this project at least, the community at large might benefit from knowing which engine is best).


(maybe this already happens behind the scenes and makes me sound like a bitter fool... please, let it be that way).

 

[ekianjo]

Foxblock, just to clarify, all that you see here is not everything. We are working "behind the scenes" as you say and not eveything has to be public. And no point in being impatient. Let things take their pace.


I'm committed and there are other members committed as well.

If the final engine won't have enough power for three parallax layers, well then you cannot have three parallax layers, but you know what? That does not matter, because the gameplay will be great and thus nobody notices this "deficit".


Now all you are going to get is a neat engine with loads of effects, but no game.

TO answer this particular question, you probably have not seen what is our goal in this project. We want to make something impressive, not just something fun looking like a space invader clone from the 70s. So, of course we should be aiming at having nice effects and all. That's part of the package, and we are in 2012 and we should not use technology that's 30 years old.


And if people keep complaining on this topic, we'll take our discussions in private. Technical discussions benefit from being open, since there are other members who can provide tips on how to get the best out of the machine.

 

[Ziz]

So, creating a game, which makes fun, is a technique from the 70's?


Nothing else did foxblock say: Make a game and show early results. And he is right. I know NO community project here, what doesn't fail because of this.


By the way: I can make some very impressing things, too, e.g. burping really long words. But impressing stuff doesn't mean, that it makes fun after all (inconclusively). ;-)

 

[pmprog]

The point of background is to create depth of field

I hope you were just joshing. I know what it's for. However, I don't think we've got a definitive "theme" for the game (or at least I've not seen it); I've been assuming it's a space shoot'em'up; however, slaeshjag's demo looked like a top-down aircraft style. Sure they're just demos, but we need to pick a theme - we might not even need parallax to the degree we're teching with.


Forget story, but we at least need a theme (ie, are we controlling a spaceship, tank, aircraft, other? are we side on or top down?)

Plenty of sprites is "given". You would need tons of sprites on screen (probably a dozen or more for ennemies at once on screen), plus about 40-50 sprites for projectiles (of varying sizes). But we can't even figure a smooth background out, I don't think we can have a dozen of sprites on screen smoothly either.

What do you mean by "given"? It's a given that we require them? or that the engine supports them? If you're referring to the latter, we don't *actually* know that, until we tech demo some sort of bullet system.

Anyway, tackling the background is an "easy" problem (everyone is clear on what to achieve) and that will give us good leads on how to make an efficient drawing engine, and that knowledge can be reapplied to sprites after.

Background really comes under polish, and polish comes at the end of the project - early stages you should concentrate on the core mechanics.

 

[foxblock]

Foxblock, just to clarify, all that you see here is not everything. We are working "behind the scenes" as you say and not eveything has to be public. And no point in being impatient. Let things take their pace.


I'm committed and there are other members committed as well.

That's great and that's what I was hoping for.

TO answer this particular question, you probably have not seen what is our goal in this project. We want to make something impressive, not just something fun looking like a space invader clone from the 70s. So, of course we should be aiming at having nice effects and all. That's part of the package, and we are in 2012 and we should not use technology that's 30 years old.

First of all, that was not a question, but regardless...


It annoys me to death that people think in order to create a good game/experience they need to have fancy graphics and effects. This could not be further from the truth.


Fancy effects and graphics sure do help to make a good game become great, but they will never make a bad game become good. Gameplay is the aspect differentiating this medium from any other.


A good mechanic can be spoiled by bad graphics, but that is nothing you need to worry about in the very beginning of development. First you have got to create that mechanic and if it turns out good, is implemented, tested and so forth you can worry about graphics and effects.


A good engine is one that is extensible and easily customizable, so by choosing one upfront (without looking at possible effects) you should keep that in mind and if you chose wisely that engine will allow you to add nice visuals to the game.


Secondly as far as I see it parallax scrolling is a technique even older than 30 years, so maybe to focus should lie somewhere else... (okay, I am just trolling here, but that argument of yours was kinda broken).

And if people keep complaining on this topic, we'll take our discussions in private. Technical discussions benefit from being open, since there are other members who can provide tips on how to get the best out of the machine.

I think you misunderstood me, I am not complaining, I am merely trying to give some advice gathered from all the failed community projects I have participated in or witnessed.


I understand I am getting up in arms for a project I am not even participating in, but that's because I would really hate to see this fail and want to see at least one community project fully succeed (I do care for this kind of stuff!).


As I have mentioned multiple times in my previous post, I am interested in these technical discussions, so please do not take them into private.


Also I know there is private talk going on, but it felt like the technical stuff is the main focus right now, which seems worrying to me.


Please continue your work and report results as they come (you are right there is no rush, but work should be continuous or people will leave after a while), just keep my words in mind.

 

[Christoph.Krn]

As I have mentioned multiple times in my previous post, I am interested in these technical discussions, so please do not take them into private.

I think so too. (Well, actually I also think that it doesn't make sense not to discuss everything publicly, as long as the discussions are moderated.)

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

Im seeing it as a side scrolling ie left to right shoot em up with a spaceship as the main player craft.I have a scenario and story idea and some ideas for the themes of the levels.I have had the ideas since before the guys started the idea for this game but am not a coder or graphic artist.I have a name 'soulfire' also.I will work out a story that ties into the themes of each level.I will send it to ekianjo for him to look over etc when i have something.I have one or two game mechanics ideas but mostly I will try to provide/story/atmosphere/scenario etc.


In terms of organisation I will send my stuff to ekianjo for him to look at as he said he would do a design doc also.I Think that with a full story/scenario in place early on it will help inform the game developement and themes etc.

 

[Binky]

The research into how many paralax-scrolling layers can be used is relevant, as I can't start doing much graphics until I know how many layers I need to draw

 

[ekianjo]

Forget story, but we at least need a theme (ie, are we controlling a spaceship, tank, aircraft, other? are we side on or top down?)

I think we already discussed this and we selected side-scroller. Please see the Google doc. Spaceship.

 

[pmprog]

Forget story, but we at least need a theme (ie, are we controlling a spaceship, tank, aircraft, other? are we side on or top down?)

I think we already discussed this and we selected side-scroller. Please see the Google doc. Spaceship.

That's fine. The first mention of it was when I was asking if it was top-down or side-on, but there was no clear indication we had agreed space.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

Forget story, but we at least need a theme (ie, are we controlling a spaceship, tank, aircraft, other? are we side on or top down?)

I think we already discussed this and we selected side-scroller. Please see the Google doc. Spaceship.

Can I get a look at the google docs? Ive started to work on some stuff already and will continue to do so in my spare.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Next week, i'll meet someone good at manga-like art for artwork.


I propose this as a starting point:

 

[mjohansson]

I approve of that art style, also I propose the main ship should be able to change between ship and mecha and have different height sizes so only the ship can squeze through some pathways. How about having forks on the levels were you come to a point and have to choose wich direction to proceed in? Like do I take the high way through the alien space ship with difficult enemys but rewarding powere ups, or do I take the low path outside the alien space ship but main enemys are easy static cannons but also not much power ups.


About the shaders: I think the problem is that GLchar dont excists, not in the section of my code were I want them anyway, could something have happened to the library? From googling thats what I suspect anyway based on the error messages I get, GLchar * hmm yields "expected initialiser before *" and GLchar hmm yields "does not name a type"

 

[mjohansson]

http://www.google.se/#hl=sv&sclient=psy-ab&q=glchar+gles+2.0&oq=glchar+gles+2.0&gs_l=hp.3...1728.11062.0.11584.15.15.0.0.0.0.133.1226.12j3.15.0...0.0...1c.TruLuH-EX64&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=ef8402c462bfc24c&biw=1025&bih=1255


it looks like a normal char* is gonna work. Then my shaders are wrong somehow...

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

I approve of that art style, also I propose the main ship should be able to change between ship and mecha and have different height sizes so only the ship can squeze through some pathways. How about having forks on the levels were you come to a point and have to choose wich direction to proceed in? Like do I take the high way through the alien space ship with difficult enemys but rewarding powere ups, or do I take the low path outside the alien space ship but main enemys are easy static cannons but also not much power ups.


About the shaders: I think the problem is that GLchar dont excists, not in the section of my code were I want them anyway, could something have happened to the library? From googling thats what I suspect anyway based on the error messages I get, GLchar * hmm yields "expected initialiser before *" and GLchar hmm yields "does not name a type"

I have the beginning and the end of the story outlined. It doesent effect the story adversely whether the player sprite is a ship or a ship that transforms into a mech.It works either way.It may be possible to evoke more of an emotional response by using a mech if you understand that a human sould lies within the mech and is fused with the mechs a.I. It would be good to decide now though whetehr its a ship or a ship/mech.these 2 sections are the meat of the story. They are told via an intro sequence and an outro sequence respectively. Someone refernced manga the other day in this thread and accordingly my story picked up a lighter more upbeat ending that would fit better to this genre.In simple terms all stories have 3 parts; a beginning, a middle, and an end.in this instance because it's a game the middle part of the story is more directly related to the gameplay.It can be relayed in part before each level with a nice piece of artwork accompanyied by text imparting lore and info about the level/world you are about to play through and any relevant story progression.Bosses/sub bosses or the main evil end of game boss may also speak before battle if story is necessary to be related.giant heads could appear on the screen as someone suggested if necessary.The events that happen in the middle section of the game will serve to elucidate the intro and outro portions of the story.what occurs in the middle will not alter the outro sequence story or the intro story.The middle can tell the origins of the chief baddie,illuminate the player as to the aliens origins or the origins of his lieutenants etc.lore/history and mystery can be relayed.Im confident that the story will really help us get a clear idea of the game we want to make. The human soul, it's enduring vitality and will to suceed are the driving themes in the game.The soulship is fighting against the dark evil. This can inform the design of the ship/mecha in terms of how it emotes etc.it can also add a layer to the ships weapons in that the ships main energy blast is essentially a Soulblast.Someone said earlier in this thread Was it m johannson? that the soulblast could have some rainbow like colours to it.perhaps it could be a bit like an aura and thus a rainbow like aura blast. I was thinking of a somewhat dark tone to much of the levels which would be in stark contrast to the bright and pure soulblasts of the soulfire ship.The dark tone would in the end be offset by the more upbeat ending. The characters, the enemies, and the specific levels/worlds need to be considered by us in terms of how they look etc.My idea would be to reflect the story and themes somewhat in the specific levels.in otherwords the choice of worlds would be tied in to the story/themes .Long post.any suggestions/etc. edit I like the idea of the ship having to change form in order to navigate certain passages etc that you suggested. The choice of game worlds we choose can serve the story but have to also have something unique/interesting in them in terms of gameplay. I will send ye the initial story outline i have in a few days/after this i can also break the intro and outro sequences down into scenes like a movie and will work on the accompanying dilaogue/text that relates the tale.we can then consider the levels and enemy types look and feel etc. ive done some work on the story today and will be off work monday so will get stuck into it.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Will the code be capable of being ported to PC ?

 

[ekianjo]

Will the code be capable of being ported to PC ?

If everyone involved agrees to make it open-source, probably. But since OpenGLes is going to be used, you'd need someone to code it in OpenGL or DirectX for Windows. If you mean PC as in Linux, it could probably be done relatively easily. But the game is supposed to run at the Pandora screen size, we are not planning to make it to be run in FUll HD or something, so for PC, the graphics would be low-res / upscaled, most probably. Net, it wouldnt look as sharp.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

At least on Linux...

 

[ekianjo]

At least on Linux...

Will do if we can, but priority is Pandora. If we start expanding the scope to x number of systems, from the start, this project will never see the light of day.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Yup, i agree with this. And i hope it will be a killer game, and it will be also playable on PC !