Explaining keyboard layout proposals. Fn hotkeys updated, language switching, powertoggles etc

[levi]

I don't have a free vote on question 1 and 3 the way they're phrased at present, so I'll not vote on this poll as stands. Also question 2 confuses me. The question asks which keys we'd be okay with losing, and the answers are lists of keys followed by '(lose )' - which keys would we lose?


On question 4, I'm not against swipe combos for sentence end and so on, but I've never used them in the past - I don't even swipe combo tab on the pandora as I find that too unreliable. There's no option for 'don't care' though. Question 5 states on one of the options 'Symbols only where they belong' - does that mean the other option has symbols where they don't belong? In my view, symbols belong on the keys which make those symbols - why would I want them on other keys that don't?


Question 6 is titled 'Semi-standard number row, shift only vs US standard number row, meta and shift'. I've not been following the keyboard thread too closely (as it frustrates me to read) so I don't really understand what this means, and what it's getting at. The US standard keyboard supports only shift on the number keys, so how is the other option shift only?


And I assume there's a typo in the last question, in that the first option doesn't specify 'english' while there's an option for advanced international users who really like the first post layout.


I'd like to be able to vote, to express my opinions, but I don't think I can on this poll at present unfortunately.

 

[rygD]

Question 5 states on one of the options 'Symbols only where they belong' - does that mean the other option has symbols where they don't belong?

Symbols on letter keys vs only on non-letter keys.

Question 6 is titled 'Semi-standard number row, shift only vs US standard number row, meta and shift'. I've not been following the keyboard thread too closely (as it frustrates me to read) so I don't really understand what this means, and what it's getting at. The US standard keyboard supports only shift on the number keys, so how is the other option shift only?

The layout comradekingu is proposing does not have all symbols where they belong compared to a US keyboard, but most are.  The ones that were moved were done so with the intention that they allow for input of non-English letter combos or something.  Now I am a bit confused about this to.

 

[levi]

Ah, I think I understand question 2 after reading it again, although the way it's written doesn't help - do we really need to see both the capital and lower case version of each character?


The list of characters in brackets are the list of characters which are generated from the dead keys in the first list. I don't quite understand the dead key concept in this context - is the intention that the '"' key would be a traditional dead-key even when typing English, in that you'd need to type '"' then space to get a double quote?


Anyway, whatever the context, presumably the idea is that if these symbols are on keyboard modifiers (e.g. ^ is shift 6) then they can't be used as dead keys (for reasons I don't quite understand). We won't lose the characters, just we'll need a keyboard modifier to get them, such as shift.

 

[comradekingu]

' is a standard key for writing "don't" "can't" "doesn't" and so on. You also lose the dead-key diactric assigned to the ' button. Which is á ć é í ĺ ń ó ŕ ś ú ý ź

The other examples are what the other dead-keys produce.

Current wblayout has no ' in international mode. While ' is mostly used in English, international users are pretty much required to input english on a semi-regular basis, so thats quite a unfortunate loss.

I dont know if i can change the poll without resetting it.

 

[levi]

As I understand the term 'dead key' it means a key that doesn't produce anything when you press it, only when you follow it with another key to produce the accented character. So if a key produces its symbol immediately, it's not a dead key, in that sense. Or perhaps this switchable 'international mode' idea is key - does it become a dead key in that mode, but a normal ' key in english mode?


FWIW, I don't think you can change a poll without deleting the votes. That's why I brought these issues up as quicky as I could, before too many people voted.

 

[comradekingu]

A dead key is like a compose key i think.

You press something first to invoke it, and then type a symbol, that turns the dead-key on, you are now free to take your hands off the keyboard

What you have done is select a symbol that corresponds to an accentuation of a letter.  You now type the letter you want.

Inputting letters like ctrl+alt+'+a   to produce á  is something that comes from US international. Curiously US international also uses AltGr as a method to invoke dead keys, so you can use ctrl+alt or altGr.

Elsewhere AltGr is used for third level modifiers, like altgr+8 and +9    is [ ]     thats how germans input [ ].

Havent quite decided what to use as the invoker, but i think ctrl+alt or alt+ctrl is best, the alternative is to use what wb calls meta (which is what i call F-ing because i only want to use it for inputting F-keys and mediabuttons)

Dead-keys makes it possible to input everything on the default layout, without switching anything. It is very tedious if you use a lot of special characters, so it is only used in the netherlands.

For the most part all the different layouts use  the two keys to the right of P and the two keys to the right of L for direct input.

There is also something the french and czech do, which is input their letters directly by typing on the number row. To input numbers they go shift+numbers.

Its a little bit difficult to have all this on the number keys along with an F-row (as per the big vote request), but im trying to figure it out, almost got a solution.

 

[rygD]

I dont know if i can change the poll without resetting it.

I will vote again if it resets.

 

[comradekingu]

This is how i logically see everyting being the numbers row.  Since inputting dead-keys is second rate to +4  they cant have F-ing, this also means F-ing is hacks only. (f-keys and mediabuttons) which is what i want.

Swipe combos for dead key accent aigu retroflex and grave  on  Fing 5 6 7 was neat, but easy access to F5 is also nice.

Inputting  what other people use +4 for on numberkeys is regional, they have to come last (which means you have to enable it) selecting french or czech layout is exactly when that should be done, not have it default, because it may cause problems.

Which means, 

Dead keys:                                                                                 ctrl+alt+       the whole number row and various punctuation letters    (see section about dead-keys in firstpost)

Inputting selected accentuaded letters on number row:   ctrl+             numberrow     ctrl+2 4  9 and 0  for frech people

Inputting first modifier:                                                            shift+           numberrow for natural language symbols and letters for capitalization aA

Inputting second modifier:                                                      altGr+          numberrow and the standard functionality on letters  altgr+e for €

Inputting F-keys:                                                                       F-ing+         numberrow

This last one is where it gets tricky, because there is only 10 keys on the numberrow, and there are 12 Fkeys.

So F2 F3 F4 F5 F6 F7 F8 F9  is smooth sailing, and can be input as if there were F-markings on the letterkeys.   F10 on 0 doesnt make much sense, so lets keep that in mind.

This leaves F1  F10 F11 and F12

To input F1:     Fing+1(release button)

To input F10:   Fing+1+0     (alternativly Fing+0)

To input F11:   Fing+1+1

To input F12:   Fing+1+2

The primary downside to this is that F1 takes a bit longer to press (on release instead of onpress)  and F10-F12  require an additional press.

Primary downside to having F11 and F12 on a different row to the number row:  Its ugly and it questions the whole layout, because it makes it look unprofessional and hacky.

Primary downside to having F1-F12 on QWERTY   its tricky to remember what key corresponds to which number, (F4=Fing+R for example) especially considering the number-row is shifted with respect to a regular keyboard. Dont want to draw attention or rely on this.

 

[_wb_]

Sorry, I'm not going to participate in this poll. The questions are biased, based on false assumptions, impossible to understand, and/or about something I don't really have a strong opinion on (yet there is no "both are fine" or "I don't care" option).

 

[bzar]

Same here. Can't find my opinions up there. No  vote.

 

[comradekingu]

wb: ill add "dont care" options, the rest you have to clarify.  Do you see the above causing any problems?

B-ZaR: State your opinions. I'll add any opinions so that you can vote for it.

I wrote symbols _belong_ on number row originally. That is not the definite truth though. AltGr for second modifier on number row isnt used by everyone. Also, what i really meant was that they _dont_ belong on the letters.

Ever since the typewriter the letters have always been free of anything visually disruptive. One could argue that this is entirely coincidental, but I have rephrased the question anyhow.

I could write more clean harder to read  and  less clean, easier to read, instead of chaotic.   That is the trade between 3perkey and 2perkey though, no option is ideal.

If someone wants to make an english layout that is incompatible with any non-english layout by all means do so, but give valid reasons why it makes sense. One of sabers layouts was like that, but he didnt want to explain it, pending EDs opinions.  ED wasnt of such opinion, but if someone can explain it to me, please do.

I'm not arrogant. Assume im really as stupid as it looks, just trying to learn.

If you think "oh, hes obviously doing this because ...."   No, im really that dumb, please explain.

Edit: New ideas from wb http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/0b81e10fdd8b785b47208915f8b65cd2

The reason the numbers are purple is to maximize visual communication without adding noise. I thought about making the key purple, but the number-row isnt in the middle, its off to the left, with backspace on the right. It could be made to be 11 wide, but that still wouldnt solve the F12.

 

[bzar]

comradekingu: Seems you already toned down the first question and added some of the options I was after. Here are two additional options I'd like.

Functional layout vs reduced layout
4. Reduced english layout with unbound key combinations to reasonably support other languages through custom bindings while keeping same base layout for everyone

If you switch from default layout to another language to add special letters, you have to lose something that was on those letters, what is it going to be?
5. I don't lose anything since I only map to unbound combinations

 

[_wb_]

The idea is to accommodate english users as per default, which is the norm.

Then you can switch to the international layout. You then lose the coding input. Which to me is a fair trade, because international users then get something whereas they got nothing before.

English users on the other hand can disregard all of it, and enjoy their coding cluster.

Its what i tried to explain in first-post, and if you disagree, and think it makes english people suffer, that's what the thread is for, so that i understand why.

WB:

• Would it be possible to type F-ing and then go 5 for F5?    Like a dead key-F button, with a little time window that you can type for example F11 in.  F-ing+1+1

It would mean the whole letter are could be letters only.

• I thought of this, since it is already functionally more sound to use ctrl+alt as regular dead-keys, instead of invoking them with meta (something nobody does)

It would mean altGr is the altGr that everyone knows, and F-ing could be exclusivly for hacks.

I explain why I think my layout is better for English (and for coding) than yours in this post: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16868-the-big-pyra-keyboard-poll/page-5#entry352740/URL]

Pressing a hard to reach button (the one you call "F-ing") and then two times 1 to get F11 is a really, really bad idea. Everything is possible (you'll have to hack some significant amount of code for this though, I guess), but that's just a bad idea. Three key presses just to toggle full screen? Having to wait before F1 becomes recognized as F1 as opposed to the beginning of F11 or F12? No thanks.

 

[comradekingu]

I was more thinking of some analysis coming from a hard coding (nopun) background.  Good post in the other thread btw.

You dont have to 'wait', its more a lag issue. Since impulse switching is faster than engage+break.  If you want F1 you go Fing+1 and then release.  If you want F11 you press another 1

I dont think its optimal either, but its the lesser of three evils in my view. The other two being F on number row F11 F12 somewhere else   and   Fs on QWERTY

I do believe this chromebook is going to be the most sold laptop that isnt made by apple. And it has no Fkeys. I know its possible somehow on chromebooks, but it isnt default.  F-keys are now marked secondary to mediakeys on apple and thinkpads. Desktop isnt a strong market anymore. Suffice to say ios, android nor blackberry has Fkeys.

I do think we need a possibility of inputting Fkeys, mostly for legacy reasons, but I don't think its all that important. Stay with me here. I think F5 is important, and that is one swipe-press.  I think alt+F4 is important, but not used often enough to stress about. F11 should be more intuitive, i wouldn't mind trying to tie it in with the other modern input-methods there are.

F11 is default on or off, and that works to some degree. Autohide is however much more sleek when it works.

Then its switching tty, which is ok enough. You still have F2-F9 as per what you would have anyway.

Will do some more research on it and see what it comes down to. The other options have many factors to be discussed too.

B-zar:

Does unbound mean blank keys? That would be semi-ideal, but i think we have too few keys.

Reduced english layout is incompatible with international since it isnt functional. What i mean by that is the english alphabet shifted right with respect to anything that needs and 11wide ASDF

Im sure you dont lose anything, but im unsure if its a possibility to make it happen. Show me a layout that resembles something you are after.

 

[FIQ]

What do you mean with "I can afford losing (insert symbols)"?

IMO, letter rows can have no labels, but for international users, whatever symbols go missing should reappear as AltGr + some letter, and on default English (and for the rest of the letters for international users), AltGr+letter should insert the more obscure letters available like @ł€®þ←↓→œþ¨ (that's AltGr + qwertyuiopå for you on desktop swedish QWERTY).

Losing them alltogether doesn't feel as an option for me...

 

[bzar]

B-zar:

Does unbound mean blank keys? That would be semi-ideal, but i think we have too few keys.

Reduced english layout is incompatible with international since it isnt functional. What i mean by that is the english alphabet shifted right with respect to anything that needs and 11wide ASDF

Im sure you dont lose anything, but im unsure if its a possibility to make it happen. Show me a layout that resembles something you are after.

No. It means, for example, that Meta-a is left without a default binding along with other key combinations. These can be mapped by the user to whatever (in the case of meta-a a good candidate would be ä for me) as needed. In that option the additional characters do not have primary key functions. It's a compromise between them having their own keys (as would be when using layouts) and the horror of compose key. Leave key combinations unused, let the user sort it out

EDIT: Actually the options are pretty much:

1. Layouts: Quick typing of åäö (substitute for your selection of non-english characters). Different keys in applications based on whether they read the layout correctly and impossible for app developers to make positionally sensible key bindings for their apps (when some games tell me to press "[" I actually need to press "å" since that's where "[" is in default US layout, sometimes it works and I actually get to press AltGr+8, which is equally horrible), works for any alphabet in any configuration
2. Compose key: Horrible 6-key two-hand finger gymnastics to get åäö, all applications work as intended, works for any latin-based alphabet in qwerty
3. Dead-key diacritics: Like compose key. Maybe less key presses.
4. Custom bindings: Need to press a self-defined key combination (for example a shoulder button with a letter) to get åäö, all applications work as intended, works for any latin-based alphabet in qwerty
5. Åäö in default keymap: Quick typing of specifically åäö, all applications work as intended. Only works for some latin-based alphabets in qwerty.

I'll pick custom bindings over any of the others.

 

[_wb_]

Actually the options are pretty much:

1. Layouts: Quick typing of åäö (substitute for your selection of non-english characters). Different keys in applications based on whether they read the layout correctly and impossible for app developers to make positionally sensible key bindings for their apps (when some games tell me to press "[" I actually need to press "å" since that's where "[" is in default US layout, sometimes it works and I actually get to press AltGr+8, which is equally horrible), works for any alphabet in any configuration
2. Compose key: Horrible 6-key two-hand finger gymnastics to get åäö, all applications work as intended, works for any latin-based alphabet in qwerty
3. Dead-key diacritics: Like compose key. Maybe less key presses.
4. Custom bindings: Need to press a self-defined key combination (for example a shoulder button with a letter) to get åäö, all applications work as intended, works for any latin-based alphabet in qwerty
5. Åäö in default keymap: Quick typing of specifically åäö, all applications work as intended. Only works for some latin-based alphabets in qwerty.

I'll pick custom bindings over any of the others.

Thanks for this summary! This was very much needed.

Let's see how the proposals compare.

My most recent proposal: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/cdf9fa53d9460c7f3b8bb92ccecb8802

Comradekingu's proposal: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6cdecd86242523f451f56c6dc4f5ce65

Saber's main proposal: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15275-unofficial-keyboard-layoutsaugust-21-2014/?p=301862

1. Layouts: supported well by all left-aligned layouts (so mine and comradekingu's), not very well by centered layouts like Saber's

2. Compose: Saber has a pre-defined dedicated Compose key which helps a bit; all the proposals have spare modifiers (e.g. keyboard Shift) that could be used as dedicated Compose key. Not much difference here.

3. Dead key diacritics: Supported by all three proposals, some are a bit more complicated than others (e.g. I think my dead acute accent is easiest to do since it's just Pyra+').

4. Custom bindings: Supported by both my proposal (using the Pyra modifier) and comradekingu's proposal (using AltGr). Saber does not leave room for this.

5. Specific keys predefined: Saber has this for German, the others don't have this.

 

[DrHAX]

Its interesting seeing how much debate is on this topic matter  :blink:  After using the pandora keyboard my only gripe is the fact that FN isn't bindable to a shoulder... I think bindable shoulders since alot of people seem determined to use shoulders as clickers. I think the bottom shoulders should be the standard pandora style and the tops if possible bindable..  I like _wb_'s layout the best so far.. Just wish I could make it more UK layout..  :wacko:

 

[Saber]

B-zar:

Does unbound mean blank keys? That would be semi-ideal, but i think we have too few keys.

Reduced english layout is incompatible with international since it isnt functional. What i mean by that is the english alphabet shifted right with respect to anything that needs and 11wide ASDF

Im sure you dont lose anything, but im unsure if its a possibility to make it happen. Show me a layout that resembles something you are after.

No. It means, for example, that Meta-a is left without a default binding along with other key combinations. These can be mapped by the user to whatever (in the case of meta-a a good candidate would be ä for me) as needed. In that option the additional characters do not have primary key functions. It's a compromise between them having their own keys (as would be when using layouts) and the horror of compose key. Leave key combinations unused, let the user sort it out

EDIT: Actually the options are pretty much:

1. Layouts: Quick typing of åäö (substitute for your selection of non-english characters). Different keys in applications based on whether they read the layout correctly and impossible for app developers to make positionally sensible key bindings for their apps (when some games tell me to press "[" I actually need to press "å" since that's where "[" is in default US layout, sometimes it works and I actually get to press AltGr+8, which is equally horrible), works for any alphabet in any configuration
2. Compose key: Horrible 6-key two-hand finger gymnastics to get åäö, all applications work as intended, works for any latin-based alphabet in qwerty
3. Dead-key diacritics: Like compose key. Maybe less key presses.
4. Custom bindings: Need to press a self-defined key combination (for example a shoulder button with a letter) to get åäö, all applications work as intended, works for any latin-based alphabet in qwerty
5. Åäö in default keymap: Quick typing of specifically åäö, all applications work as intended. Only works for some latin-based alphabets in qwerty.

I'll pick custom bindings over any of the others.

In my layouts Version 1 and 2, umlauts for a and o are those vowels under Meta(which I call Sym). For å, remap over ß and be done with it. If you have a fourth, replace Section Sign, Euro, or Micro. I put them all over to the right for people like yourself to add whatever you need without any complications.  

Its interesting seeing how much debate is on this topic matter  :blink:  After using the pandora keyboard my only gripe is the fact that FN isn't bindable to a shoulder... I think bindable shoulders since alot of people seem determined to use shoulders as clickers. I think the bottom shoulders should be the standard pandora style and the tops if possible bindable..  I like _wb_'s layout the best so far.. Just wish I could make it more UK layout..  :wacko:

If we fix the flaws in the Pandora layout, you won't need a "Fn" key on a shoulder button. Group regularly used keys to the keyboard's right left opposite from the main modifier with less crucial ones to the left right, and the problem is corrected. Some decisions like the brightness toggles on the Pandora being on the right half side weren't as well thought out as they could've been as well as the overabundance of currency symbols.   

 

[comradekingu]

To illustrate how clean it could be with Fkeys on numbers  http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bd8240d3f396d640dcc14eed19650882