Current Keyboard Layout

[Linux-SWAT]

About the key placement, I'm not a big fan of having language-specific characters.

They are cool for the minority of owners using them, but are useless for the majority.

Instead, having e.g. c1, c2, c3 (custom1, custom2 or whatever these buttons will be named) and having them assigned by the user or through a pre-made interface should be a better choice IMHO.

 

[foxblock]

Just a quick note: I am also very much in favour of putting the F-keys on the number keys. For one most compact keyboards (I own) do it like that and it seems more intuitive (to me at least, but that is personal preference as has been already discussed).

For another, this would put € on E where it belongs and opens up Tab or Q for ESC, which is a better choice in my opinion, since it feels more natural (ESC on Q=Quit / ESC on Tab as the opposite of tabbing through input fields = exit current form).

In the end it looks like the layout will be a custom, non-standard one no matter what we do. So in my opinion every key in a non-standard or unexpected (to most users) position should make sense from the context and not just be placed there because there was still room.

This is especially important with often used keys like the F-keys, ESC, shift, control, etc.

I agree with Linux-SWAT: I feel like having special symbols like the French accents or German umlauts in the "correct" position is nice for a single group of people, but we should not sacrifice the position of keys important to ALL users for that.

Finally this is all just theory crafting. Nobody here can actually predict whether this layout works or layout X is better than Y (given that both are reasonable, but all in here seem to be).

What we need is some prototyping or rather people creating this custom layout for their keyboard at home (as closely as possible), test drive it for a week or longer and report back with problems/suggestions/ideas.

It's the same with the action buttons really. Nobody can objectively say greek-smbols are better/worse than ABXY, (though some people are making quite an effort), both have pros and cons. To find out what works best you gotta let a larger group of people test it.

And since ED does not have the money to prototype a thousand keymats or cases with buttons we gotta find some cheap alternatives to properly test it I think. (instead of just arguing about single button placements)

Some makeshift prototypes (like a keyboard layout for you at home) could be especially helpful, since you can invite outsiders to test it, too. We are all just way too used to the Pandora's keyboard and special workarounds/problems. Get some novices in the mix and find out what is really bothering them with this layout.

 

[Saber]

Just a quick note: I am also very much in favour of putting the F-keys on the number keys...

I feel the same. Numbers do not match letters, at all, but they do other numbers. Recognition is immediate if they are paired up. 

v6.0:

http://i.imgur.com/piPBTDy.png

Spoiler

Some notes about v6.0

• ' and " could move to Fn + z and x if we'd rather have / and ? as primary and secondary keys.
• Fn + u, i, and o are all diacritic dead keys. Call it a goodwill gesture for those non-English/German.
• Fn + n and m could be degree and euro symbols instead(though I prefer what they are now).
• Menu is called menu but is the Pyra key.
• SysRq, Pause, and Print Screen are optional. 

Editor for above layout is here.

 

[comradekingu]

Foxblock, French is the odd one out, and the closest you can get to doing it (without ruining things for everyone else) is a language layer, which means one extra button+what it usually is.

100% support your view to show it to novices and outsiders. It really keeps things honest, and it would be a shame to pretend like it cant be done.
 

Lol Ed, you removed all french specific keys and kept the german ones

Well, I don't really plan to favor any special language except german (for apparent reasons ), as in that case more people would cry for other languages at well.
I also don't think é or è is needed, as it's totally easy pressing ´ and then e afterwards (which is how we do this on German keyboards at least).

 
The way to do all things is to have an english default (being more familiar to english users), with the keys available to implement the german positions. Either by memory, or by custom keymat, which then becomes a much more viable option.
The extended alphabet keys german keyboards use are the exact same for many other languages, so you get a bonus there too. (Its luckily the nations the customer-base is in)
 



There is uncertainty as to this being the best way to type because thats how a conventional typewriter/keyboard works, and its the more efficient.

It is the difference between hack and hacky, just like the difference between compromise and compromised. Nobody but germans want to see german symbols, and vice multiversa.

 

[ible]

I have to also very much agree that F-keys on number keys makes the most sense

Spoiler

unless you're using a Grench-style keyboard and making both numbers and F-keys on the Fn layer for gaming purposes

.  dividing symbols above and below F-keys is also visually a bit jarring.

@Saber:

IMO caps isn't that important of a key to give it a nice spot.  i'd prefer something else useful.

 

[comradekingu]

Instead of disagreeing on two ways to do F-keys, neither of which is ideal, why not compromise. You both get what you want, but nobody gets labels. Game-theory for a gaming device

It looks clean, and for the purpose of looking clean, there is a benefit to be had.

 

[pmprog]

Instead of disagreeing on two ways to do F-keys, neither of which is ideal, why not compromise. You both get what you want, but nobody gets labels. Game-theory for a gaming device

It looks clean, and for the purpose of looking clean, there is a benefit to be had.

Please tell me that you were joking! With "universal" keys (F-keys, escape, etc.), not labelling them will lead to vast numbers of people going "This game says press F1 for options, but there's no F1 key on the keyboard".

v6.0:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Editor for above layout is here.

I really like this - however I've made some minor tweakshttp://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c0dd2d76ce4b3780fa8c43fd47859608

1. Switched "L Shift" and "R Shift" to match correct sides of the device

2. Put mouse buttons on L2 and R2

3. Ditched R.Ctrl because I'm not sure anything speficially requires R.Ctrl over just a ctrl key

 

[_wb_]

Having all modifiers (Shift, Ctrl, Alt, Fn/Meta) on a shoulder button is a must. If you really want mouse buttons there, it could be an optional thing, but the default that makes most sense is to have modifiers there. With some coding and an input daemon, it could also be a combination by default and act as a mouse button and a modifier, e.g.:

Press L2, release L2: Left mouse click

Press L2, press letter: Fn+letter

Press L2, move nub (mouse movement): Left mouse drag

As to which one is the Left and Right modifier, I suggest we follow the Pandora convention and call the keyboard modifiers the Left ones and the shoulder buttons the Right ones.

 

[comradekingu]

I agree, but feel the need to clarify, is f-keys on shoulders a must? Having AltGr is a must for some, not confusing it with Fn or meta is a possibility. Definitely a must for novice users.

Labeled F-keys is not a must. This is an example from a chromebook. (Where you can type them, but they aren't labeled.) I think there are better ways to communicate that then use up visible space with something that isn't ideal, and has less modularity as a result. Whatever is the default (numbers is used on fewer-keys keyboards) its easy to remember.

(Escape is something else and needs a dedicated (and labled) key).

F-keys are already a sequence, not keys, having them labeled means, there is a F-key, but i dont know how to press it. Colouring adds ugliness. It fails for people (from my testing) because it breaks away from keyboards they know to use.

You are then left with deciding what you risk failing, basic AltGr functionality (done wrong) and F-keys, or just F-keys.

 

[Urben]

Having all modifiers (Shift, Ctrl, Alt, Fn/Meta) on a shoulder button is a must. If you really want mouse buttons there, it could be an optional thing, but the default that makes most sense is to have modifiers there. With some coding and an input daemon, it could also be a combination by default and act as a mouse button and a modifier, e.g.:

Press L2, release L2: Left mouse click

Press L2, press letter: Fn+letter

Press L2, move nub (mouse movement): Left mouse drag

As to which one is the Left and Right modifier, I suggest we follow the Pandora convention and call the keyboard modifiers the Left ones and the shoulder buttons the Right ones.

Wait, What would you do if you want to hold left mouse button to mark something? The Key would just activate FN mode until you release it.This sounds very unusual.

FN needs to be on the shoulder buttons, its a must have for me. I'm just wondering for what we need R.Alt? All symbols are on Shift or Fn Level aren't they? Which other thing can you do with it?

 

[comradekingu]

Clicking on the shoulders is not so cool, because you end up relying on it, and move that expectancy to games, where it will be turned off (?)

(and for the purpose of keymat design its not relevant)

 

[Urben]

I'm also more for the pads for mouse control, so half-working clicking is not so desireable for using the rare space on the shoulder buttons.

 

[_wb_]

Having all modifiers (Shift, Ctrl, Alt, Fn/Meta) on a shoulder button is a must. If you really want mouse buttons there, it could be an optional thing, but the default that makes most sense is to have modifiers there. With some coding and an input daemon, it could also be a combination by default and act as a mouse button and a modifier, e.g.:


Press L2, release L2: Left mouse click


Press L2, press letter: Fn+letter


Press L2, move nub (mouse movement): Left mouse drag


As to which one is the Left and Right modifier, I suggest we follow the Pandora convention and call the keyboard modifiers the Left ones and the shoulder buttons the Right ones.

Wait, What would you do if you want to hold left mouse button to mark something? The Key would just activate FN mode until you release it.
This sounds very unusual.


FN needs to be on the shoulder buttons, its a must have for me. I'm just wondering for what we need R.Alt? All symbols are on Shift or Fn Level aren't they? Which other thing can you do with it?

The disambiguation between Fn and LeftClick would be resolved by waiting for the next event: if it's a mouse movement event, then it's a left click (dragging), if it's a keypress, it's the modifier.

Right Alt is often called AltGr and it can be used for another layer of symbols, e.g. by selecting the US-International keyboard layout.

 

[thatgui]

Well, the idea is: Super (or whatever we'll call it) should be used as on the Pandora for a Pop-Up Menu.


Both Super and ESC should be accessible, but not accidentally - imagine playing a game and accidentally hitting ESC and it quits right away.


Same for the pop-up-menus: I often disable it on Laptops which have a non-standard key layout, as it's annoying when menus pop up while you're writing a text while accidentally hitting SUPER (= Win key, for those who didn't know).

I find that argument rather odd, every key in reach of a thumb is theoretically vulnerable to be pressed by accident. And we are talking about keys that are more close to the Pandoras then to a classic keyboard, so they actually have to be pressed down (not just "brushed over") in order to send the keycode (and you need to have Fn pressed in order to really send [ESC] instead of [sUPER])


But even then I am all in favour of having that key pressed by accident: its rather uncommen that you can just press [ESC] and everything is lost, usually there is some form of dialog to prevent that from happening. And in the rare cases where this doesn't happen I would be willing to live with this small chance of data loss if the whole typing/using experience is a lot more fluid (its the same with the horrible design decision of some Linux DEs to put another dialog after the shutdown/reboot button/menu entry - I loose more time over the span of my entiry computing life "using" this additional dialog then through the very occasional shutdown/reboot by mistake).

What extra button do you need?

As suggested by other here this could be the new home for "print screen" which makes room for other language specific characters.

Hm, I never used that key before, just read about it... sounds to be useful for Linux, even though I never used it before.

In theory it sound really usefull, especially if I remember a comment from you correctly, regarding a battery compartment that needs a screw. (Which is something I like)

other suggestion in this thread I want to endorse:

• move brightness (screen/ keyboard) to the right,
• remove the USB - toggle functionality, while I can see someone wanting to quickly turn on/off wireless connectivity I can't think of a scenario where I want to enable/disable the USB port quickly without having time to go into a menu or execute a shortcut
• Move the F-Keys to the number row, its a matter of taste for sure, but I would prefer it that way
• Move [€] to [E]

@ Saber

Out of curiosity, why is [CAPS LOCK] important for you ? Looking at my keyboard, thats the key that is still the most matte looking key on my keyboard, as I usually only press it by accident - I have literally no use at all for that key (don't want to imply that it hasn't the potential of beeing usefull, just that it isn't part of my computing experience).

 

[comradekingu]

Position is all important. Its the difference between

I drove my car off the road → I am dumb.

I drove the car off the road because accelerator and break-pedal was switched → the car is dumb.

Same with keyboards, that happens once, it could be over. Either by seeing a potential for confusion, or by experiencing it as a first impression.

New is not equivalent to old, always worse unless better.

 

[bzar]

How about "I drove the car off the road for the fiftieth time because accelerator and break-pedal was still switched → I am dumb"?

 

[WizardStan]

Also because of the necessary compact design of the car, there are no floor pedals, the accelerator and brake are actually a hand lever that goes one way to signify accelerator and the other for braking. There's a great deal of contention as to whether the direction of the lever is the normal way that pedals would be or not, due to the nature of how switches operate.

In either case, it is well documented, and only people who think they can drive this new-fangled car without instructions should be at risk of crashing.

 

[Saber]

@ Saber

Out of curiosity, why is [CAPS LOCK] important for you ? Looking at my keyboard, thats the key that is still the most matte looking key on my keyboard, as I usually only press it by accident - I have literally no use at all for that key (don't want to imply that it hasn't the potential of beeing usefull, just that it isn't part of my computing experience).

It's not super important to me but when it arises I'd like to be able to type words in all caps without holding Shift down continuously through the process. For short words it doesn't matter much but longer ones it will: ENCYCLOPEDIA or CONSTANTINOPLE. It's not only reserved for yelling in ICQ.  B)

It doesn't necessarily have to be where I have it and could be moved to Fn + Tab or Fn + c. I have to ask you and ible though which symbol is in such a poorly chosen spot that we'd have to move it where Caps Lock usually is on full keyboards(I know this isn't a full keyboard)? Tilde is fully reachable and so is / and ? already. Just curious what you guys are thinking should move there and why it's beneficial.     

 

[comradekingu]

Android keyboard has sticky shift for typing, no caps lock.

The one way that current mobile keyboards was better... Caps lock?

It has been a unfunny joke since the switch was finally made from all caps to extended ascii systems.

Why not Fn+shift, or whatever NeXT used? On chromebooks its alt+search.

http://capsoff.org/history

Esc and non-accidental Fn is also a lot more useful than two brightnesstoggles.

 

[_jr_]

The nubs are still clickable, or did I miss something?