Current Keyboard Layout

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by EvilDragon, Jul 3, 2015.

  1. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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    I would put Esc above the left nub, as a dedicated key roughly where the number 3 key is on the Pandora. I think that is an optimal location for Esc: you wouldn't hit it accidentally in that location, but it's still easy to reach and it's a primary key (no Fn) so it is more efficient than an Fn key.

    http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2a438eeb9999716cf582bda5e3a5dd87

    (There are various ways to make room for Esc at the top, what I did here was to put Brightness up/down on a single key (shift+BrUp to get BrDn); another way to make room is to turn Pause into an Fn-key)

    If Esc up top is not acceptable for whatever reason, then here's a modified version where Esc is at Fn+1, § is at Fn+3, and `~ follow the same shift-pair-convention as the other US-QWERTY Fn-symbols:

    http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/456d460a93d132e2ceed7a9cb084730f
     
  2. ible

    ible professional vim user

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    You can put it in the main area with some promotion of ? and / to Fn keys:

    http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/cf241417ea635fb3336ad62e363f2a78

    If you prefer the key pairs being close together, here's a "minimal" modification of _wb_'s latest, which (if you don't like the hardware keys up top you can change them) has lost one of the accented e's.

    http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4ee32f5e0cf79baa17a3a10f1df37b45

    I don't know which one international people would prefer to lose, or if losing a different diacritic would be better.
     
  3. Antartica

    Antartica Still Fresh

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    SDL and X permit to put them as a combo, but for example Android keyboard definition files (.kcm/.kl) need F1..F12 to be in their own keycode (AFAICT).

    Not that I want to use Android in the pyra, though...
     
  4. comradekingu

    comradekingu Glowing ember

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    On the numbers and right side of the keyboard, a position it has in common with standalone keyboards, which is the benchmark, and laptops, which is something to aim for.


    We know laptops work, so that is not dangerous, making a category of its own by doing strange things because and as a result of being different may be "retro computing handheld" but that is as awkward as it is to explain.

    On the right side of m, where they are expected. This has been a gripe in the keyboard-threads, if you havent heard of it, that serves as no reason to do it differently just because no voice of concern has been heard.


    Going one farther, they can be positioned around space so that you have a quickest route of sequence for the most often used combos. (see explanation at bottom of post)

    Backspace on top right part of keyboard is where its expected. Taking the shortcut and beginning with a design that isn't reasoned down to the details,


    and possibly by someone else, like pandoralayout, means you end up with many pieces of a puzzle you then have to draw something on later. There are no shortcuts.

    So if we start with a regular keyboard, it has 104 or 105 keys, that is too many. Meaning putting the regular symbols at 2 symbols per key doesnt work in the same way.


    However adopting the convention of how for example a German keyboard works, is fine, and infinitely more familiar to people who use these types of keyboards. Arguably it looks


    more like a keyboard to those who dont too.


    Fn never fails to fail with novices, on its own. If you add a function its not supposed to/never has, then you are only left with "ill just try this, because i know something should do it-people"


    Try showing all layout to novices and seasoned neckbeards, communicating things that aren't extremely stock, and obvious, fails fast.

    shift+insert pastes in terminal, because ctrl+v doesn't work. Even if not common or obvious, there will always be someone who has implemented something out of the ordinary with what they expected to be the default, and someone who will do so down the road.


    Straying away from defaults should be kept to a minimum for this reason.

    You are very right in saying it cant all be defaults, so its important to keep the line crystal clear.

    I tested compose to work on select, and if select is a button of its own, then no problems. Fn is a button for hacks, as is and should be, and must not be relied upon for normal operation. Because that puts any operation, and purchase out of the hands of most people, for no good reason.

    The back to basics of what a keyboard is, not legacy solutions for the pandora, that just answers the question "is the pyra keyboard on par with the pandora one?"


    I think it should be much better, given it has more keys. So you have to ask yourself what you want answered, and then juggle it up against what is possible to balance out.

    A more in-depth of something I think, and have tested to work for most people, in an efficient manner, flexible, with considerations for all of the above, can be found here.

    The drawbacks are out in the open too, rather than being left to hope.

    Its made instead of you having to go through the backlog, to get up to speed as fast as possible.

    If you want to take the view of a newcomer, introduced to the pyra as per learning about it, it is this easy to explain. Its the best I(←we) can do, and it has stood the test of time.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 8, 2016
  5. Saber

    Saber Advanced Member

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    This situation now with the Pyra keyboard layout resembles the inevitably poor results of the final test when the advice of the teacher to the student to start studying for it early has been arrogantly ignored. Cramming the course material all the night before the exam and expecting an A grade. 

    No Caps lock? 
     
  6. lennaick

    lennaick Member

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    We have no choice, but anyway everybody want a classic « QWERTY » keyboard for typing with two thumbs.

    An optimised two thumbs typing keyboard would'be better, but people are afraid of.

    Very usefull in terminal to copy (ctrl+ins) / paste (shift+ins) / cut (shift+del)
     
  7. notaz

    notaz Certified Guru

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    Yeah hopefully there won't be need for USB toggle, we need it on pandora because of OMAP3 hardware bug. OTOH it might be desirable to be able to cut VBUS so you can disable the device without unplugging it.

    For other toggles, I'd say we need them only if we want that functionality in fullscreen games as it's unlikely anyone will code a system menu.

    Fn modifiers are forbidden in mainline kernel, so if we want to support distro kernels it can't be used. I've also received lots of criticism for that decision on pandora... That said I suspect most keys won't work on Pyra in framebuffer console (when X is not started) because of no driver-controlled Fn.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 4, 2015
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  8. FaeMinx

    FaeMinx Rainbow Liberation Instigation

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    ^ That makes me a sad Panda. :(
     
  9. WizardStan

    WizardStan Mega GP Mania

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    eeeee, ok then. I am outta simple solutions. I guess we just keep an eye out for applications that don't work and fix them as needed?
     
  10. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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    Everything will be in X or SDL anyway, so as long as everything works fine there, there is no big problem for most people. Though I think it should be possible to make things work in console mode using just loadkeys configuration.
     
  11. Eight Bit

    Eight Bit Hardcore Member

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  12. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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    Backspace as a primary key (no modifiers) is essential in my opinion.
     
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  13. pmprog

    pmprog Advanced Member

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    I've probably missed something, but why are F1-F12 not on the number keys? It makes sense to have Fn+1 = F1, no? As for what to swap with - well, the Fn on the number keys can go on the letters.
     
  14. WizardStan

    WizardStan Mega GP Mania

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    Because putting them below the numbers allows all 12 to be consecutive; there's only 11 buttons on the number row, something wouldn't work.Some people like the "feel" of having "Fn+N = FN", others like the "feel" of having the FN row in an acual row. I can't think of any objective reason why one is better than the other, it's just an opinion as to which looks better to the individual.
     
  15. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

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    Hm, you can usually set a keyboard layout on the console as well... so it should be possible we create one, or not?
     
  16. Saber

    Saber Advanced Member

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    I don't look at Tab and think that's F1, and F8, of course, that is U. It, as you put it, "feels" more correct to have those on the 1 and the 8. Having all F-keys in one row is the only [advantage], and merely an aesthetic one, as I don't see any discernible [disadvantage] with having the first ten, F1-F10 matched with the numbers, and F11 and F12 continued on the row just below it.  
     
  17. WizardStan

    WizardStan Mega GP Mania

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    Exactly. There's no objective reason one way or the other, it depends entirely on what "feels" better to the person using it. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, as they say. Either way it is imperfect and needs a compromise, which way the compromise goes depends on... well I guess it depends on EvilDragon, unless he puts it to a vote.
     
  18. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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    One other advantage of having F1-F12 not on the number row, is that you could theoretically put the keyboard in some kind of "game mode" where both the number keys and the F-keys are primary keys. I'm not a gamer, but Grench claims that there are games that use both the F-keys and the number keys for game actions.

    Having the AZERTY éèàç on the number keys where most French people expect them is also an advantage of not putting F-keys on the number row:

    http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/456d460a93d132e2ceed7a9cb084730f

    That said, I'm personally still more in favor of a layout that has F1-F10 at 1-0. I think it looks more elegant. Also I think it looks nicer to not have Fn-labels on Enter. This one is my favorite:

    http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/920b839e587ea7ea8523b2ccd9f3cc45
     
  19. Eight Bit

    Eight Bit Hardcore Member

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  20. Mr_Loon

    Mr_Loon Can't Remember

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    In response to the layout proposed by ED in the first post.

    The main problem I have is the decision to not use hardware buttons for mouse buttons, one of the most common interactions with the OS is via the click of a mouse button, Pyra will be covered in buttons, surely it makes sense to allocate buttons for mouse buttons (FWIW there was a poll that showed the majority of Pandora users would prefer hardware mouse buttons). My personal preference would be to use the most easily accessible shoulder buttons as mouse buttons. Hopefully nub clicks will be superior to the highly bizarre choice for Pandora of using an analogue motion to emulate a button click.

    @ ED : IMHO the keyboard should be designed to reflect the needs of the userbase, what percentage of the userbase do you anticipate to be German? I can fully understand your personal desire for keys with German accents / special characters but I suspect they will be of limited use to the majority of users. For instance i'm pretty sure a Caps Lock key would be more useful to the average user than a ß Key.

    It's appreciated that designing a keyboard for a global market is very difficult, to get round this a little I'd like to see a dedicated key to bring up user defined list of additional keys / symbols, it's appreciated that this would only work on an OS rather than a hardware level but it should help all the same. UK users could include the £ symbol, German users could include äöüß etc.
     
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