Current Keyboard Layout

[lukey]

Quote - "SysReq" is gone ? Hm, I never used that key before, just read about it... sounds to be useful for Linux, even though I never used it before. Can we put it under some modifier key?

But only, if the modifier is hardware controlled or the driver is Kernel-space, beacuse the Magic of the SysReq Key is, that you can sync and unmount Filesystems, when the System hangs and sometimes even after a Kernel Crash (!).

 

[Alec]

I really don't like the Esc key - it's very hard to reach there and requires moving the entire hand to get to there (And I have large hands). I use it very often when editing in Vi  on the Pandora.


Considering Fn is on the left trigger, I think Fn+/ would be a nice spot for it. Or even some place like Fn-M.


I do like the Tab and the / as top-level keys though

Ah, Vi. That's an argument.


I don't usually use the shoulder buttons that much for typing, so having ESC reachable with the shoulder button Fn only (well, mostly only) is not that nice for me.


What about putting ESC on the 2?


§ could move to Menu and Menu could move to Super as well.


Then we'd have Super and Menu on one button, which would make sense.


Good idea?

Fn-2 sounds alright to me. I'm guessing having it under the 1 would be too easy to press accidentally?

 

[_wb_]

Here are my comments on http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/37af15095b2aeedd169b0b5beb3bc9a6

Super is a modifier so it should not have an Fn label, otherwise things like Super+F-keys become impossible.

Suggested fix: put Esc somewhere else

ScrollLock and Break are not important.

Suggested fix: drop them.

I think that Backspace on the extra action button is not a bad idea at all (and I like the symmetry with Delete), but if the key to the right of 0 is available, then I would use it for dash/hyphen/minus instead of slash, for two reasons: 1) it's like that in US-QWERTY, and 2) dash/hyphen/minus is more important than slash (for all use cases).

Suggested fix: swap /? and -_  (that is, make /? Fn-keys and -_ primary/shift keys)

All those hardware toggles: does that really make sense? E.g. if the USB ports do power-saving automatically, then nobody needs a special button to toggle them because you can just keep it activated all the time. I am more in favor of having just one hardware button, which pops up a menu which shows you the status of everything and lets you toggle everything. By doing this in software, we can be sure that nothing is forgotten (e.g. what about a toggle for rumble? gps? hdmi?) and no unnecessary things are labeled.

Suggested fix: only one hardware toggle button, the other button can become Pause+PrintScreen (can be useful in games, so putting them up there makes sense)

Shoulder buttons: perhaps better to make it backwards compatible with Pandora: L1=RShift, R1=RCtrl.

Suggested fix: Make L1,R1 RShift and RCtrl

There are dead diacritics for acute, grave and diaeresis/umlaut, but not for circumflex? Shift+6 is not supposed to be a dead key. Also backtick and tilde should be available as ASCII symbols, so it looks like grave and tilde-diacritic are also missing.

Suggested fix: make Fn+6 dead circumflex (needed for âêîôû in a.o. French). Let ~ be the ascii symbol by default (can be made dead tilde in software for Spanish/Portuguese), perhaps make ` a dead grave by default (so to get the ascii symbol you have to type it twice or follow it with a space). Dead umlaut is not crucial, it can be hidden at Fn+" for those who need ëï.

French uses a lot of éèà (more than ç), so it makes sense to have those letters easily available.

Suggested fix: put éèà on Fn+270 like on an AZERTY keyboard.

The keys comma/period are not like on US-QWERTY or like on the Pandora: they should have < and > as Shift-labels and ; : as Fn-labels if you want it like on the Pandora.

Suggested fix: either do it like on the Pandora, or do what I am proposing below.

"DOSBox compatibility" (i.e. US-QWERTY symbol shift-pairs) is impossible if you don't want Fn+Shift combinations. However, the next best thing is possible: have the shift-pairs either like they should be (e.g. on the number row), or in a systematic layout.

Suggested fix: in my modification of ED's proposal, all the symbols that are not on a dedicated key are on the bottom row:  ; / = [ ] \ and their US-QWERTY shift-value is on the row just above, in a systematic way:   ; ? + { } |

(This makes it easy to remember how to type +{}| in DOSBox: the keymat is basically a cheat sheet)

Here is a modification of ED's original layout that takes all of the above into account:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/0799ac86bbff62ad2d6d9be918cec737

 

[Tenka]

I also don't really like brightness up and down using two keys, could a single brightness key on the right be a modifier for the D-pad to adjust it?  If so, brightness+up/down could control the screen while brightness+left/right controls the keyboard.

I don't know what else to stick on the other top key, but there are only four of them.

 

[FaeMinx]

I also don't really like brightness up and down using two keys, could a single brightness key on the right be a modifier for the D-pad to adjust it? If so, brightness+up/down could control the screen while brightness+left/right controls the keyboard.


I don't know what else to stick on the other top key, but there are only four of them.

For desktop use that's really nice, but how would you adjust brightness ingame?

 

[_jr_]

I like that there are not more keys wasted on modifiers. But having Shift mashable with Fn both on the keyboard and on the shoulders makes it even more useful to have FN-Shift combinations for punctuation like on a US layout (giving more keys and fixing dosbox like programs almost for free). If the punctuation is combined with normal letter keys there will still be only three markings on a key.


Using all the buttons above the nubs for hardware control seems wasteful (we have enough modifiers to get by with fewer keys, e.g. +/- could be controlled by shift; not having any hardware control key would at least not be worse than the Pandora), especially the outermost buttons will be easily reachable, depending on the grip even better than V and B. I'd put TAB, ESC, Break/Pause, Return, BS, or Ins there.


Having Menu, Pause, PrtScr, ScrollLock in obscure places isn't much better than not having them at all IMO. Better add them to the keys above the nubs or to the punctuation cluster in the lower left corner. Does the layout have a non dead backquote and tilde? If not that should be fixed, probably by pairing them where TAB is now (and moving TAB to the buttons above the nubs).


Edit: mostly ninja'd by _wb_ and tenka

 

[Saber]

Okay, so it's finally time to work on the keyboard layout.


I should get it finished until mid next week.


So please - don't turn this thread into another "let's see how many posts can be made!"-thread - only post, when you REALLY go something important to post!


This is not finalized, it's a first proposal I created. It's basically a mixture of Sabers and 8Bits ideas, but I tried to fix some things.


Sabers layout had combinations where you need to press Fn and Shift at the same time - I tried to prevent this.


8bit had some important keys like backspace in areas you can't reach easily - so I tried to fix that to.


The current design idea is this:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/37af15095b2aeedd169b0b5beb3bc9a6

The only keys in my latest layouts that required Shift with Fn were the capital letters for the three German Umlauts. I presume that is how you also create them in the layout you posted too so I'm not seeing the difference.

Not sure which layouts you were ogling but I'm speaking of v5.0 and v5.0b, in my sig below, and posted in the final keyboard layouts BTW.

If the above is what you're set on then check my latest post here in the "It's the keyboard layout" thread, or check out the image with the suggested revisions below and in the spoiler:

http://i.imgur.com/rF16Kh4.png

Spoiler

 

[TrashyMG]

I'm Just waiting for the final layout to wire up my Pyra compatible mechanical keyboard...

 

[Eight Bit]

I've read all feedback and altered some more. As can be seen I removed all hardware toggles except brightness.

I named the keys U1 through U4. The idea is that users can assign their own hardware toggles or whatever (Sysrq, Scroll Lock etc.) to these keys.

For the rest I think this is a quite complete English, German, French combo layout

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/388d6d3a54ad72a8d8954548bc675e3e

 

[fayer3]

Since the FN key is on L2 does that mean it can be mapped as a key in games?

 

[pmprog]

What is Fn actually implemented as? A driver level modifier like in pandora? Some software modifier key like meta or hyper?

A software modifier like Meta or Hyper. We do not have fixed hardware modifier keys anymore in the system.

Are you 100% certain that's what you want? That means that that pressing FN-E will NOT produce F4, it will produce FN and E. If you make it an absolute software modifier then anything that expects the Fn keys will need to be rewritten to use this new modifier instead. That'll be simple for some stuff and complex for others.

If Fn is set as a h/ware modifier, then having Fn as L2 will be useless; because you won't be able to press L2, as it won't register a keypress
Is there a reason why F-keys are on the letters row, rather than on the numbers; it makes sense to me that pressing Fn + 1 gives me F1

 

[WizardStan]

If Fn is set as a h/ware modifier, then having Fn as L2 will be useless; because you won't be able to press L2, as it won't register a keypress

It won't be a hardware modifier. Cannot be a hardware modifier. That ship sailed a long time ago and would have required a lot of advance knowledge.The proposal I had was to treat it the same as on the Pandora, in the keyboard driver, with the addition that it would also produce it's own key code modifier of some kind. That way it would send the modified keystroke same as it does on the Pandora but also provide the modifier keycode, whatever it may be, which most software will just ignore.

So pressing "FN+E" will produce, like, "META" key (or whatever, there's a couple of modifier codes we can use) but also "F4" as opposed to "E".

 

[Eight Bit]

Here is a modification of ED's original layout that takes all of the above into account: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/0799ac86bbff62ad2d6d9be918cec737

This actually really smart.  Good thinking with the order of the rows like it is visually on a single key.

I'd put Esc on a more sensible spot like next to 1! though but I can learn to live with it on the B too I guess.

Thumbs up from me.

 

[comradekingu]

Not suitable for anything that isn't English, and problematic for English.

Symbols all over the letters looks unprofessional and cluttered. The opposite to this is clean. Done right it can be pleasing.

, and . on the left is inefficient. The opposite to this is the default for 10finger board, with some tweaks its most efficient for 2 thumbs.

backspace on buttoncluster. Thematically inconsistent. Putting it where it is expected is also more efficient since its closer.

Fn does AltGr. Will, and is tested to fail for novices, also confusing. If you do thirdlevelshift, you are doing AltGr, ISO-style, unless you have more buttons, and we don't.

Keys on other keys Compose and ins has all drawbacks of the above. The opposite has no obvious ((shift+fn)+insert) is awkward and unforeseen (who knows, never seen it) traps to fall into.

All of the issues in bold are fixed by sticking to the default. Keep it simple.

 

[EvilDragon]

Here is a modification of ED's original layout that takes all of the above into account: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/0799ac86bbff62ad2d6d9be918cec737

 This actually really smart.  Good thinking with the order of the rows like it is visually on a single key.

I'd put Esc on a more sensible spot like next to 1! though but I can learn to live with it on the B too I guess.

Thumbs up from me.

Thanks _wb_, I'll check it out and compare what else you changed.

I agree with 8bit here though, ESC should be put on 1 or 2, it's not very convenient at your spot.

 

[EvilDragon]

Symbols all over the letters looks unprofessional and cluttered. The opposite to this is clean. Done right it can be pleasing.

That is not a suggestion.

You just tell me that you don't want symbols on the letter keys. Where else would you out them?

, and . on the left is inefficient. The opposite to this is the default for 10finger board, with some tweaks its most efficient for 2 thumbs.

As mentioned in my first post: Let me know where you would like to put them or with what keys you would swap them.

They've been on the Pandora on the left side for ages and I haven't heard that anyone disliked that yet.

backspace on buttoncluster. Thematically inconsistent. Putting it where it is expected is also more efficient since its closer.

It SHOULD go where the ? is right now, yes. But I have no idea where to put the ? in that case.

It would be even weirder putting them on the action buttons, and since the lower action button is NEAR where you'd expect the backspace, I used that.

Any suggestions where to put it?

Fn does AltGr. Will, and is tested to fail for novices, also confusing. If you do thirdlevelshift, you are doing AltGr, ISO-style, unless you have more buttons, and we don't.

I don't really understand what you mean with that. Could you give me an example?

Keys on other keys Compose and ins has all drawbacks of the above. The opposite has no obvious ((shift+fn)+insert) is awkward and unforeseen (who knows, never seen it) traps to fall into.

When would you need Shift + Ins?

I can't think of any case - most of the time, INSERT toggles between insert and replace mode. I don't see why you need to press it together with Shift at some time. 

The issue is: We can't put all the keys that are on the keyboard without a modifier on the Pyra, as we don't have that many keys. So we need to put some using Fn, and hopefully, you won't ever need them together with Shift.

All of the issues in bold are fixed by sticking to the default. Keep it simple.

With default you mean which one?

 

[EvilDragon]

A software modifier like Meta or Hyper. We do not have fixed hardware modifier keys anymore in the system.

Are you 100% certain that's what you want? That means that that pressing FN-E will NOT produce F4, it will produce FN and E. If you make it an absolute software modifier then anything that expects the Fn keys will need to be rewritten to use this new modifier instead. That'll be simple for some stuff and complex for others.

Well, what disadvantage would that give us?

All X games, SDL and standard Linux programs use the keyboard layout you setup, therefore, for those, Fn and E will be F4.

In what case would you need that as a pure hardware key?

 

[benoitb]

I've read all feedback and altered some more. As can be seen I removed all hardware toggles except brightness.

I named the keys U1 through U4. The idea is that users can assign their own hardware toggles or whatever (Sysrq, Scroll Lock etc.) to these keys.

For the rest I think this is a quite complete English, German, French combo layout

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/388d6d3a54ad72a8d8954548bc675e3e

This layout looks very usable, and I could even see myself write in French with it. Thanks for creating it, I hope something like this will make it to the final decision.

 

[WizardStan]

In what case would you need that as a pure hardware key?

You wouldn't. If you think it'll be fine then go for it but I'm still pretty sure something more like how the Pandora does it would be better: handle it in the keyboard driver, output the Fn keycode plus the modified code.

 

[_wb_]

Here is a modification of ED's original layout that takes all of the above into account: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/0799ac86bbff62ad2d6d9be918cec737

 
This actually really smart.  Good thinking with the order of the rows like it is visually on a single key.


I'd put Esc on a more sensible spot like next to 1! though but I can learn to live with it on the B too I guess.


Thumbs up from me.

Thanks _wb_, I'll check it out and compare what else you changed.


I agree with 8bit here though, ESC should be put on 1 or 2, it's not very convenient at your spot.

I would put Esc above the left nub, as a dedicated key roughly where the number 3 key is on the Pandora. I think that is an optimal location for Esc: you wouldn't hit it accidentally in that location, but it's still easy to reach and it's a primary key (no Fn) so it is more efficient than an Fn key.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2a438eeb9999716cf582bda5e3a5dd87

(There are various ways to make room for Esc at the top, what I did here was to put Brightness up/down on a single key (shift+BrUp to get BrDn); another way to make room is to turn Pause into an Fn-key)

If Esc up top is not acceptable for whatever reason, then here's a modified version where Esc is at Fn+1, § is at Fn+3, and `~ follow the same shift-pair-convention as the other US-QWERTY Fn-symbols:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/456d460a93d132e2ceed7a9cb084730f