comradekingu
Glowing ember
Is it really a good idea to fill up everything? What if you miss something, or gods forbid the user wants something else, somewhere.
Current Keyboard Layout
- Thread starter EvilDragon
- Start date
ible
professional vim user
like this _wb_ compromise. everything is just about where it should be, from a European keyboard perspective, for both German and French people.
this would be my spin on it:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9cfb51f7403ddbb39b0cc2454f9bfa4e
this helps to lump all the german accented letters together, and move ^ over to where the French might expect it.
(or would the french prefer this tiny modification?
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/993005265be6c669f861dd849014b7eb
)
for other languages (Norwegian, etc.), you repurpose the german umlauts and eszett. they can be the P+2 and L+2 that ck wants.
this would be my spin on it:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9cfb51f7403ddbb39b0cc2454f9bfa4e
this helps to lump all the german accented letters together, and move ^ over to where the French might expect it.
(or would the french prefer this tiny modification?
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/993005265be6c669f861dd849014b7eb
)
for other languages (Norwegian, etc.), you repurpose the german umlauts and eszett. they can be the P+2 and L+2 that ck wants.
Last edited by a moderator:
elvissteinjr
Very Active Member
How is Select & Start in a "wrong" orientation? There are multiple ways to arrange them and the more recent vertical arrangements have been like the Pandora one (like GBA or NDS).
Well, the other way around isn't wrong either, though. I just feel more comfortable with current orientation, but that's just me.
Well, the other way around isn't wrong either, though. I just feel more comfortable with current orientation, but that's just me.
There are usually two shortcuts for Copy/Paste in terminals: Ctrl+Ins / Shift+Ins and Ctrl+Shift+C / Ctrl+Shift+V.
The Pandora has Ctrl and Shift on shoulder buttons, so I am quite used to the latter. It is just like the usual Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V, but with an extra Shift thrown in because Ctrl+C is already needed for SIGINT.
That said, Ctrl+Ins / Shift+Ins are still possible: R1+L2+dash / L1+L2+dash or, less conveniently, SELECT+Meta+dash / Shift+Meta+dash.
Also, I think it should be perfectly possible to make L_Meta and L_Shift sticky while R_Meta and R_Shift are non-sticky. I think that would be a reasonable default configuration.
txus
Member
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- Mar 23, 2014
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How about Ñ/ñ? Is this done via a dead "~"+"n"? If there are dead keys anyway, why not treat the french accents and german umlauts the same way with "'", "`", "^", and """? Or can we get a dedicated "ñ" and remove, for example, "§", for which the only use I would know of is writing german legalese? The access to different languages (at least the one with latin characters) should be consistent, which also makes the use more intuitive since every time you are looking for an accented letter you know you can just press the most similar symbol to the accent + the letter.
Grench
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Those are getting closer, but I don't think they're quite done. I.e. we can do a bit better.
That top row of buttons is woefully underutilized - but we still have keys in the main area that would make sense to have 'up in the rafters'. Esc for example.
We still are using four 'keys' just to control the back lights (normal and Fn layers of two keys). It feels wasteful.
The German letters ö ü and ä are listed as lowercase. Is it the intention, then, that the uppercase versions of these letters will NOT be allowed to be entered from this keyboard?
Simply moving Esc and CapsLck to 'the rafters' (still easy to reach) has big advantages.
1. Frees up TWO keys in the main keyboard area, allowing the -_ pair to move OFF of that incredibly prime real estate at the top right corner.
2. Now that -_ have moved, they can land in the paired symbol row with the rest of the symbols - no issues there.
3. This allows Backspace to be where it should be on the top right corner of the main keyboard.
4. That allows delete to move down and insert to ride over the top of delete where IT should be, thus restoring the Ins, Del, PgUp, PgDn, Home, End cluster at the game buttons where it should be.
5. While we're at it, this also allows placement the 4 German keys in a row.
This is a VERY slight tweak. I even left the 2 physical buttons dedicated to brightness control - even though it could and IMHO should all be done on one button. I would like to see brightness control consolidated under a single button and the 'left over' button be given Menu and Hardware Control as it's normal and Fn functions - I have NOT done that on this example, though, as those may be contentious.
So, I think we're getting VERY close to a common ground layout. I believe this to be an improvement and reinforcement on the theme from the ED and _wb_ layouts.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/90af356f62ad4e5cc98b56983aef01fa
Grench
Forum Addict!
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There are no dead keys on this style of layout without first activating AltGr. You COULD use compose ~ N to get Ñ though. The layouts with explicit and easy diacritics were deemed too complicated for general consumption.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Languages that use more than A-Z, basically every other language, call it foreign letters if you want, can not type on the proposed layout like the English do. Removing the keys everyone else uses to type their languages is the same as it would be for english people if anything from A-Z was taken away.
Seeing foreign symbols, is detrimental. Its not that it ruins the whole thing, but it is a drag. Pandora keyboard being an example thereof.
The ctrl/select drives me nuts, not only is the orientation wrong, arguably the order is too, and the readability is lower than all other keys, making it the rotten apple.
You could find backspace on your keyboard if there were no labels, not so much when its nowhere on the typewriter area to be found. That is unprecedented.
Symbols aren't all over the place on mobile keyboards because they are mobile, nor because they are better used with two thumbs that way, they are that way because of _limitations_.
Its never the same, and it is always bad.
You are wrong about alternating between hands needlessly, because that is what you are doing, shifting motorical attention, and tying up both, instead of just one (which is off-centered anyway) in the worst possible position.
Nobody, ever, thinks comma and dot on the left is normal. It looks and functions like a hacky solution due to a lack of keys, it isn't balanced.
Fn to type symbols doesnt make sense, and it fails for novices. When it could have been working, as per normal. Nothing awkward about mobile keyboards is normal anymore. They are gone for a reason.
Put Esc on Esc, top left outside of keyboard area, done deal.
I know tab isnt ideal, but it cant be. Either its in the correct position, or its in a functional position compared to the dpad. I am open about all shortcomings, not trying to trick anyone.
Problems are real for the people who have them. Some people, like me, are pedantic, we notice detail, and flaws. Take for instance that guy who made the dpad, who does that? He does, nobody else.
AltGr isnt complex, its normal, two modifiers total is however too simple, because its missing functionality. AltGr+ qwerty and so on (alternate graphics) is supposed to do something @ł€®þ←
Showing people 1 layout isnt even a test of comparison, it never occurs to someone that they should mention how to improve, or their difficulty, they just hammer on.
I used windows, windows, i said it, and i never knew it was terribad until way after i got good at it. Novices are people who aren't good with computers, not the people at gamescom.
(Ill make a list of all shift+ and altGr+ combos and modifiers here) most all of which is lost.
Added functionality:
Removed functionality:
I think people who use / and \ do so sparingly, or are sufficiently advanced to use shoulders to type those, with shift in one place, which is how not to waste one, you have to make that transition all things considered.
The people who want extra keys for foreign letters, are the majority, as per the vote. The keyboardtreads long since stopped having regular people in them. Its now a vortex of the same people producing forever changing design, with no guidance. And then me pasting my layout every now and then. It seems people listen more to you though.
üöä, in that order, in that orientation, is forgetting how people type, not just Germans, but everyone who isn't anglo/english.
üöä are letters, meant to be typed to the right of p and the right of l. Now the default only has one layout, and i think keeping with how people know to type is infinitely better than re-training them with methods you invent.
The symbols on those keys, [{ ]} and < > are duplicated on the altGr layer. Fortunately, they are all symbols advanced people use, so for regular people, its not even noticed.
The way i envision typing French is with select, which doubles as a language layer+numbers. Closest thing you get to typing french without ruining things for everyone else. And you can type big letters.
An ideal situation, is to have the foreign letter keys be visual, and a keymat could be made for that, showing the changes. Meanwhile, early adopters are advanced people who dont look at the keyboard when they type. Position is everything. With two defaults, you get a lot done, because even for novices, they can use a german keyboard to type for example Norwegian. Having a letter to type that produces local equivalent is help along the way.
So with all things staying the same, preproduced English default pyras. Worst case you throw a keymat into the package and send it off, let the user assemble it. No added nothing.
TOHKBD and librem are much smaller, but ok, one default english keymat, and one german keymat. Name your price for 1000, if I can afford it, I will gladly pay.
Seeing foreign symbols, is detrimental. Its not that it ruins the whole thing, but it is a drag. Pandora keyboard being an example thereof.
The ctrl/select drives me nuts, not only is the orientation wrong, arguably the order is too, and the readability is lower than all other keys, making it the rotten apple.
You could find backspace on your keyboard if there were no labels, not so much when its nowhere on the typewriter area to be found. That is unprecedented.
Symbols aren't all over the place on mobile keyboards because they are mobile, nor because they are better used with two thumbs that way, they are that way because of _limitations_.
Its never the same, and it is always bad.
You are wrong about alternating between hands needlessly, because that is what you are doing, shifting motorical attention, and tying up both, instead of just one (which is off-centered anyway) in the worst possible position.
Nobody, ever, thinks comma and dot on the left is normal. It looks and functions like a hacky solution due to a lack of keys, it isn't balanced.
Fn to type symbols doesnt make sense, and it fails for novices. When it could have been working, as per normal. Nothing awkward about mobile keyboards is normal anymore. They are gone for a reason.
Put Esc on Esc, top left outside of keyboard area, done deal.
I know tab isnt ideal, but it cant be. Either its in the correct position, or its in a functional position compared to the dpad. I am open about all shortcomings, not trying to trick anyone.
Problems are real for the people who have them. Some people, like me, are pedantic, we notice detail, and flaws. Take for instance that guy who made the dpad, who does that? He does, nobody else.
AltGr isnt complex, its normal, two modifiers total is however too simple, because its missing functionality. AltGr+ qwerty and so on (alternate graphics) is supposed to do something @ł€®þ←
Showing people 1 layout isnt even a test of comparison, it never occurs to someone that they should mention how to improve, or their difficulty, they just hammer on.
I used windows, windows, i said it, and i never knew it was terribad until way after i got good at it. Novices are people who aren't good with computers, not the people at gamescom.
(Ill make a list of all shift+ and altGr+ combos and modifiers here) most all of which is lost.
Added functionality:
- Tradable buttons you can type other languages than English on (the most important purchase-groups other than english covered nativly)
- Streamlined punctuation (a reason why singlespace is better, this vs this (try this for yourself))
- Shift+ combos for all coding brackets {[ ]} < > and : (same as above)
- AltGr+ combos for ? and - and often used English ' (things you can get done with one press is better than tying up both thumbs)
- Alternate graphics
- One US diactric symbol per key (more coverage than any other layout if you prefer that)
- Language layer (all important european languages one+one click away)
- Select Start in correct orientation (even when horizontal, the pandora is still wrong.) (yet i imagine a lot of people will vote to keep it broken)
- Ability to use Fn with everything (+shoulders for mediabuttons, + dpad, +buttoncluster + all of the letters that otherwise would have clutter on them)
- No major issues with buttons that don't belong together on the same key. (the look is not the same if the tie is around your waist, you are just using the same wardrobe)
- Compose on Start is a lot less shaky than on flappy-space.
- Buttoncluster labels that make sense for gaming buttons and 87-key functionality (this, forever this)
Removed functionality:
- Ease of typing F-keys with shoulders, (along with potential accidentals to be fair)
- Ease of seeing where F-keys are (which is ugly to be fair) (And you can Alt+F4, accidentally)
- F-key labeling
- Caps lock labelling
- Fn labeling (because we dont know for sure what works best, its ugly, and the user knows best)
- Super key, (there are plenty of other good options to control a desktop environment than waste a button. Xfce has a nice setup, and doesnt use super by default.)
- Visibility of things that should be on the AltGr layer
I think people who use / and \ do so sparingly, or are sufficiently advanced to use shoulders to type those, with shift in one place, which is how not to waste one, you have to make that transition all things considered.
The people who want extra keys for foreign letters, are the majority, as per the vote. The keyboardtreads long since stopped having regular people in them. Its now a vortex of the same people producing forever changing design, with no guidance. And then me pasting my layout every now and then. It seems people listen more to you though.
üöä, in that order, in that orientation, is forgetting how people type, not just Germans, but everyone who isn't anglo/english.
üöä are letters, meant to be typed to the right of p and the right of l. Now the default only has one layout, and i think keeping with how people know to type is infinitely better than re-training them with methods you invent.
The symbols on those keys, [{ ]} and < > are duplicated on the altGr layer. Fortunately, they are all symbols advanced people use, so for regular people, its not even noticed.
The way i envision typing French is with select, which doubles as a language layer+numbers. Closest thing you get to typing french without ruining things for everyone else. And you can type big letters.
An ideal situation, is to have the foreign letter keys be visual, and a keymat could be made for that, showing the changes. Meanwhile, early adopters are advanced people who dont look at the keyboard when they type. Position is everything. With two defaults, you get a lot done, because even for novices, they can use a german keyboard to type for example Norwegian. Having a letter to type that produces local equivalent is help along the way.
So with all things staying the same, preproduced English default pyras. Worst case you throw a keymat into the package and send it off, let the user assemble it. No added nothing.
TOHKBD and librem are much smaller, but ok, one default english keymat, and one german keymat. Name your price for 1000, if I can afford it, I will gladly pay.
Last edited by a moderator:
txus
Member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Messages
- 115
Well, Spanish is one of the most spoken languages in the world, and ñ is vital to it. After all, as an easy example, you'd want to differentiate "year" from "anus" ("año" vs "ano")! How can it be too complicated to write accent+letter? That's also how it works on most keyboard languages by default if you want to write foreign accented characters, unless you explicitly select a layout with no dead keys :S
There are: acute and circumflex would be available as dead keys. Those are needed in several languages, a.o. French and Spanish. Umlaut and grave are available as precomposed äöü and àè, which is enough for German and French; they could be made available as unlabeled dead keys on Shift+" and Shift+` to easily form the remaining umlauts and graves: ëïÿ and ìòùỳ.
Same with ~: Shift+~ could be dead tilde by default, useful for the Spanish ñ and the Portuguese ãõ.
txus
Member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Messages
- 115
Sorry if it seemed that way but I wasn't trying to push for the inclusion of an "ñ" key. That was actually what I wanted to point out... Right now it's a sort-of-german-french-mix which is not even complete for all cases in those languages. Instead of having some accented characters written with key combination and some with dead keys, even in the same language, make a CONSISTENT behaviour for all accents by using dead keys. This is both more elegant and more intuitive for everyone, regardless of the language they are currently writing in (!!!).
FaeMinx
Rainbow Liberation Instigation
comradekingu, you amaze me.
Just some amusing things I noticed:
You are concerned about clutter, and would rather have as little printed on the keys as possible... I.e. only letters, no symbols... Reason: you intend to memorize key placement and type without looking at the keyboard... And you want the device to be 'clean' because looking at symbols printed on every key is a drag. I.e. you will actually get unhappy everytime you look at the keyboard 'with all that clutter'.
And yet you intend to not look at the keyboard while typing.
So it just boils down to how deeply you get frustrated by something that doesn't apply itself to your 'clean' aesthetics.
I also imagine you are pushing for this 'every key *has* to be where you would expect it to be, because you want to transfer your supposed 'muscle memory' from your full size keyboard to your Pyra with absolute minimal variation... Which is a very 'clean' way to do this. After all, efficiency comes from simplification and adherance to standard yes?
You try to use the argument that novices will get confused, but you must recognise that is a pretty weak assertion. Novices *need* to be shown where all the symbols are... They don't need a device that will frustrate them the moment they need to type anything other than the most simple of things. That's what AltGr is for you say? For novices you say? I never even knew right Alt could do those things untill these threads, and I've been using computers since the dos era.
Thank heaven's fn + symbols printed in the same colour is so self explanatory.
Admit it. You are stretching for reasons to argue to get *your* perfect keyboard for *you*.
'Well of course I am.' You say, 'but if you just allow me to convince you to see things my way, you will see how much better it is. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.'
My apology for the dressing down, but I detected much OCD yes?
:>
Just some amusing things I noticed:
You are concerned about clutter, and would rather have as little printed on the keys as possible... I.e. only letters, no symbols... Reason: you intend to memorize key placement and type without looking at the keyboard... And you want the device to be 'clean' because looking at symbols printed on every key is a drag. I.e. you will actually get unhappy everytime you look at the keyboard 'with all that clutter'.
And yet you intend to not look at the keyboard while typing.
So it just boils down to how deeply you get frustrated by something that doesn't apply itself to your 'clean' aesthetics.
I also imagine you are pushing for this 'every key *has* to be where you would expect it to be, because you want to transfer your supposed 'muscle memory' from your full size keyboard to your Pyra with absolute minimal variation... Which is a very 'clean' way to do this. After all, efficiency comes from simplification and adherance to standard yes?
You try to use the argument that novices will get confused, but you must recognise that is a pretty weak assertion. Novices *need* to be shown where all the symbols are... They don't need a device that will frustrate them the moment they need to type anything other than the most simple of things. That's what AltGr is for you say? For novices you say? I never even knew right Alt could do those things untill these threads, and I've been using computers since the dos era.
Thank heaven's fn + symbols printed in the same colour is so self explanatory.
Admit it. You are stretching for reasons to argue to get *your* perfect keyboard for *you*.
'Well of course I am.' You say, 'but if you just allow me to convince you to see things my way, you will see how much better it is. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.'
My apology for the dressing down, but I detected much OCD yes?
:>
For me the most interesting thing about your suggestion, comradekingu, is:
You talk about our layout being cluttered, yet you offer in your last suggestion multiple more layers of keys (more than we have) with all the symbols, where NO ONE knows where they can be found, as they are not printed on the keyboard...
How is THAT not confusing?
It's like printing NOTHING at all on the keyboard and hope everyone will find out and remember where the keys are...
I also wonder what your issue with Start and Select is.
I already mentioned further up that we can swap Start and Select (which would make sense if you would first press "Select" to select something in a menu and then "Start" to start it), but yet the most common device (NDS, 3DS and GBA) have Select below Start.
So while you are promoting to make the keyboard as common and normal as possible, you want the exact opposite with Start and Select.
Honestly, I have NO idea anymore what it even is you're complaining about.
I tried to reply to all your text as good as possible, integrate ideas and try to understand your issues, but each time I read a new post it sounds like the same record again from the beginning...
Ours is too confusing and cluttered, yet your suggestion is a lot more confusing for most users out there in my opinion, having to learn and type multiple layers of symbols without being able to look them up... how can THIS be less confusing?
You talk about our layout being cluttered, yet you offer in your last suggestion multiple more layers of keys (more than we have) with all the symbols, where NO ONE knows where they can be found, as they are not printed on the keyboard...
How is THAT not confusing?
It's like printing NOTHING at all on the keyboard and hope everyone will find out and remember where the keys are...
I also wonder what your issue with Start and Select is.
I already mentioned further up that we can swap Start and Select (which would make sense if you would first press "Select" to select something in a menu and then "Start" to start it), but yet the most common device (NDS, 3DS and GBA) have Select below Start.
So while you are promoting to make the keyboard as common and normal as possible, you want the exact opposite with Start and Select.
Honestly, I have NO idea anymore what it even is you're complaining about.
I tried to reply to all your text as good as possible, integrate ideas and try to understand your issues, but each time I read a new post it sounds like the same record again from the beginning...
Ours is too confusing and cluttered, yet your suggestion is a lot more confusing for most users out there in my opinion, having to learn and type multiple layers of symbols without being able to look them up... how can THIS be less confusing?
comradekingu
Glowing ember
I would rather have no letters on the keys, but lets forget about me and start worrying about what works for most people. People who know how to type, do so by position, not looking at the keys and arranging them.
For the purpose of proving this, arrange all keys in dvorak and see how productivity goes to nothing for someone who is used to qwerty.
I want it to look, and function, like a keyboard. A lot of things dont, and what happens is it looks like the layout and the amount of keys had nothing to do with eachoter in planning, and then were shoehorned together at one point in production.
My layout, Norwegian, doesnt even fit without moving shift. So why isnt it moved already? Because that is less efficient, and less familiar, for english.
Efficiency comes from a lot of places, going against familiarity and functionality is a quick way to ruin it.
I actually for the longest time tried to convince people that a layout where you only needed shift for language was superior. I was wrong, US numberrow wins. Also because of conventions derived from it.
You would think Fn+colour is easy, but you are the initiated. For someone who doesnt, it fails. There are maaaaaany such people. All of which will be able to use an Android phone, but will quickly decide something isnt for them if it looks forced and technical.
The last one is a strawman argument. Some things have to be tested to notice, because its not a double-test. If you are listening to mp3 on your pineapple radio that you bought in 1994 in gran canaria, a full HiFi system probably isnt in your mind as you are rocking out to living in a dream by bon jovi, which you listen to, alot. Admit admit.
ED:
The layout i put my name on is just as much a our layout as anything else. If you put them next to eachother one looks cluttered and the other doesnt, some people think that is ok, i dont, not only because of the amount of visual impact.
So you start out with english people and give them the efficient and nice default (they are as happy as can be)
Then you incorporate the languages that fit in a functional layout way +3 (or4 if you use shouldershift) extra letters, along with compose, diactrics.
Optionally you give those languages a dedicated keymat for the germans are now as happy as the english.
Then you incorporate the languages that didnt make the cut, into a language layer, like the NEO layout does.
You only have to use what you need. People know how to type, and all people manage once you give them their keys on a layout.
On the premise that optimizing english is the single biggest audience, and that people who know how to type are more likely to buy a device if that works for their language.
Breaking the way people type never works, and doing it half-way, ruins the experience for the people that could.
So what is it that you need to figure out if you only have one keymat for everyone:
{[ ] } < >, if you use them, on either the altGr layer, or the language layer. For normal people you dont need to know about any of them. Just normal shift, and AltGr, as similar to a real keyboard as is possible.
Try showing layouts to people who are potential customers, and not already veteran pandora users, you will discover a lot.
Select
Start is how its done when its done like that.
But i really would like:
Select Start because the pyra is more like a gamepad
Edit: I'm an idiot and i wrote "select start" is wrong when it isnt. (I fixed it in the offending post)
For the purpose of proving this, arrange all keys in dvorak and see how productivity goes to nothing for someone who is used to qwerty.
I want it to look, and function, like a keyboard. A lot of things dont, and what happens is it looks like the layout and the amount of keys had nothing to do with eachoter in planning, and then were shoehorned together at one point in production.
My layout, Norwegian, doesnt even fit without moving shift. So why isnt it moved already? Because that is less efficient, and less familiar, for english.
Efficiency comes from a lot of places, going against familiarity and functionality is a quick way to ruin it.
I actually for the longest time tried to convince people that a layout where you only needed shift for language was superior. I was wrong, US numberrow wins. Also because of conventions derived from it.
You would think Fn+colour is easy, but you are the initiated. For someone who doesnt, it fails. There are maaaaaany such people. All of which will be able to use an Android phone, but will quickly decide something isnt for them if it looks forced and technical.
The last one is a strawman argument. Some things have to be tested to notice, because its not a double-test. If you are listening to mp3 on your pineapple radio that you bought in 1994 in gran canaria, a full HiFi system probably isnt in your mind as you are rocking out to living in a dream by bon jovi, which you listen to, alot. Admit admit.
ED:
The layout i put my name on is just as much a our layout as anything else. If you put them next to eachother one looks cluttered and the other doesnt, some people think that is ok, i dont, not only because of the amount of visual impact.
So you start out with english people and give them the efficient and nice default (they are as happy as can be)
Then you incorporate the languages that fit in a functional layout way +3 (or4 if you use shouldershift) extra letters, along with compose, diactrics.
Optionally you give those languages a dedicated keymat for the germans are now as happy as the english.
Then you incorporate the languages that didnt make the cut, into a language layer, like the NEO layout does.
You only have to use what you need. People know how to type, and all people manage once you give them their keys on a layout.
On the premise that optimizing english is the single biggest audience, and that people who know how to type are more likely to buy a device if that works for their language.
Breaking the way people type never works, and doing it half-way, ruins the experience for the people that could.
So what is it that you need to figure out if you only have one keymat for everyone:
{[ ] } < >, if you use them, on either the altGr layer, or the language layer. For normal people you dont need to know about any of them. Just normal shift, and AltGr, as similar to a real keyboard as is possible.
Try showing layouts to people who are potential customers, and not already veteran pandora users, you will discover a lot.
Select
Start is how its done when its done like that.
But i really would like:
Select Start because the pyra is more like a gamepad
Edit: I'm an idiot and i wrote "select start" is wrong when it isnt. (I fixed it in the offending post)
Last edited by a moderator:
Neelix
Insecticidal Maniac
I've no idea what you are basing it on, but I'm certain that you are completely wrong about this. Colour coding fn combinations is a convention used on almost every notebook computer in the last several years plus pretty much all other compact keyboards, so the number of "uninitiated" as you say, is probably very small, especially amongst the Pyra's target market. Also the reason It's so prevalent, is exactly because it works so well as a way to communicate to the uninitiated how to access those symbols.
-Neelix
Last edited by a moderator:
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Do you want only the pandora and mobile keyboard market? Because everywhere else, a button marked Fn, does not type symbols. It is never used for a reason other than having too few keys. And no significant group has used Fn-types-symbols keyboards more than real ones.
It being on laptops is not equivalent to people knowing how to use it. AltGr however, you need to type @, which people know how to do. (and we already imply here that there are too few keys to only have shift as per US layout, and that re-arranging things so you would only need shift for language is out of question)
It being on laptops is not equivalent to people knowing how to use it. AltGr however, you need to type @, which people know how to do. (and we already imply here that there are too few keys to only have shift as per US layout, and that re-arranging things so you would only need shift for language is out of question)
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rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
@FaeMinx: I do sometimes get thrown off and spend more time than I should looking for a character when using the Pandora or another thumb keyboard that has things in atypical places after using a "normal" keyboard all day. This is why I prefer . and , on the right. I agree with ED about efficiency when typing those characters, and even though I know where they are on the Pandora, I sometimes forget and get slowed down.
rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
Fn has been on laptop keyboards for over a decade. Even if people aren't used to it I am pretty sure they would rather learn it than lose keys (or not be able to find them since they are unmarked). I prefer a cleaner look as well, but I would rather have more people buy a Pyra and be able to figure out how to use it, resulting in more first-hand (is this the correct term) sales from ED and others, a larger community, and potentially the P3, or a new SoC, down the road.
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