Craigix Discloses Information On New Gp2x?

[saehn]

But...who are you...? Joined today and know more about all this than most of us.....?

Maybe it's Epicenter.

 

[sam fisher]

It does have some 3D acceleration, possibly more than the DS.

 

[Samba Pa Ti]

just thinking about some games id like to play (if quake 3 runs full speed) half-life 1 (and mods) should run at fullspeed as well, this would be pretty cool on a handheld (and with wifi maybe even cs 1.5)

 

[sam fisher]

It is a moot point to discuss if the machine should be capable of 3D or not. A serious deficiency of the GP2X design is the fact that it lacks any real 2D/3D acceleration hardware. There is a blitter, yes, but due to faults in the MMSP2 design, it does not provide any significant advantage over software blitting of graphics.

The designers of this system, whomever they may be, have expressed interest in building a general purpose device, much like a PDA or mobile communications device, that is also capable of comfortable gameplay. In order to keep up with the curve of technology (as well as maintain compatibility with the widest range of pre-existing software), a modern SoC using an ARM-series processor, ideally ARM11 (but ARM9 would work as well) would be the logical route to take. They have also expressed interest in multi-CPU architecture. SoCs from Samsung or Texas Instruments' OMAP series would more than fit this need. The ideal choice, I believe, would be the Freescale i.MX31, but a number of products could fit the bill nicely.

The point is, all of these products provide 2D and 3D acceleration, because in modern SoCs, the two are one and the same. The most common graphics implementation, because it is ARM's reference standard, is PowerVR's MBX architecture. This provides powerful 2D acceleration for very intensive 2D games, enabling enormous gains over software blitting and additional effects very useful for homebrew titles as well as intensive emulation, such as alpha blending, scaling, rotation; as well as a full host of 3D features, high fill rates, and impressive maximum polygon counts (>1 Million).

Such SoCs also implement Vector-FPUs which would be more than suitable for accelerating 3D transform math, or could be implemented for use in intensive emulation, many applications of which require or would be able to make use of a proper FPU. Many modern SoCs also include a programmable DSP with a limitless array of possibilities for its use.

This is in addition to a powerful CPU, often in excess of 500 MHz, which still draws minimal amounts of power. The dual 200 MHz CPUs in the GP2X's MMSP2 chipset give a poor estimation of proper power consumption, as the MagicEyes-designed implementation is primitive, breaks ARM's reference standards, and uses a very old fabrication process, all of which result in excessive energy waste. A properly-designed mobile device utilizing a 533 MHz ARM11 processor, VFPU and MBX 2D/3D accelerator-integrated SoC would not have difficulty attaining a battery life of over 4 hours under typical use, and this is a conservative figure. It's not uncommon to see PDAs attain the same. Use of a WiFi radio would of course decrease this life, as in any device and exact battery life will depend on the capacity of the LiIon battery included. This power draw could be further reduced by implementing software controls to adjust WiFi transmitter power as well as clockrate of major SoC blocks (CPU, Secondary CPU, VFPU, Graphics Subsystem). Modern ARM architecture includes numerous power saving facilities that are not utilized by the GP2X's ARM920T or ARM940T.

If there is anything the GP2X has proven, however, it is that the smallest mistake can cripple a machine if it impacts how the unit is controlled. It is imperative any machine meant to correct the GP2X's faults do away with the issue of nonstandard and cumbersome controls first and foremost.

Epicentre, it's just a MMSP2+ as the base. They have hyped it up to sound around the level of the i.mx31 but I think that the freescale SoC is just too expensive to use.

 

[KeyboardCowboy]

As the saying goes, "If you build it, they will come". Provide facilities for content developers, such as myself, to build on from the very beginning. Make the most promising machine possible, with the most potential you can. Do not sacrifice industry-standard features. Look to your development audience and learn what tools they need to accomplish their goals.

At the low level, there needs to be sufficient CPU 'horsepower', support facilities such as floating point implementation, full DMA transfer capability between major SoC blocks as well as I/O devices (a sorely lacking feature in the existing GP2X implementation that cripples many potential apps), sufficient memory and storage capability.

At the higher level, there needs to be flexibility and room for the user to grow, such as connectivity and expansion possibilities, sufficient battery power for realistic mobile use.

And at the highest level, where the device interacts with the user, the controls and feel of the machine must be satisfactory. It also must not give the impression of a cheap toy, rather a professional product. This is how you inspire confidence in true, dedicated developers.

One of the largest issues with the GP2X is that it provides only the most basic facilities for a developer. It allows you a substantial quantity of freedom to develop and implement your own software, with more ease and flexibility than mainstream game consoles. However at its inception, it was a few steps ahead of its predecessor, the GP32, but far behind the market. It came with too many built-in limitations, making developers work from day one to "defy the limits" and push the envelope. This does not invite developers-- pushing the envelope is something to be done in a console's final days, when its true potential is being discovered, not from square one. This scares away many serious developers leaving only the most dedicated homebrew/emulation scene behind, and is destined to send any machine to a premature grave.

To the specific end of addressing the issue of "3D apps must exist before 3D hardware", such thinking is less than realistic as a system with nothing but ports of existing software brings little new to the table than the novelty of bringing existing software along with you in your pocket, and sets the bar so low the system has little chance for commercial success or even a sufficiently long life. If one only looks backwards, how can they ever go forward?

 

[Samba Pa Ti]

As the saying goes, "If you build it, they will come". Provide facilities for content developers, such as myself, to build on from the very beginning. Make the most promising machine possible, with the most potential you can. Do not sacrifice industry-standard features. Look to your development audience and learn what tools they need to accomplish their goals.

At the low level, there needs to be sufficient CPU 'horsepower', support facilities such as floating point implementation, full DMA transfer capability between major SoC blocks as well as I/O devices (a sorely lacking feature in the existing GP2X implementation that cripples many potential apps), sufficient memory and storage capability.

At the higher level, there needs to be flexibility and room for the user to grow, such as connectivity and expansion possibilities, sufficient battery power for realistic mobile use.

And at the highest level, where the device interacts with the user, the controls and feel of the machine must be satisfactory. It also must not give the impression of a cheap toy, rather a professional product. This is how you inspire confidence in true, dedicated developers.

One of the largest issues with the GP2X is that it provides only the most basic facilities for a developer. It allows you a substantial quantity of freedom to develop and implement your own software, with more ease and flexibility than mainstream game consoles. However at its inception, it was a few steps ahead of its predecessor, the GP32, but far behind the market. It came with too many built-in limitations, making developers work from day one to "defy the limits" and push the envelope. This does not invite developers-- pushing the envelope is something to be done in a console's final days, when its true potential is being discovered, not from square one. This scares away many serious developers leaving only the most dedicated homebrew/emulation scene behind, and is destined to send any machine to a premature grave.

To the specific end of addressing the issue of "3D apps must exist before 3D hardware", such thinking is less than realistic as a system with nothing but ports of existing software brings little new to the table than the novelty of bringing existing software along with you in your pocket, and sets the bar so low the system has little chance for commercial success or even a sufficiently long life. If one only looks backwards, how can they ever go forward?

isnt this a bit offtopic talking about the gp2x's flaws ? i dont see how its relevant...

 

[Dzz]

Epicentre, it's just a MMSP2+ as the base. They have hyped it up to sound around the level of the i.mx31 but I think that the freescale SoC is just too expensive to use.

Did one of the guys making this thing say it was the MMXP2+? I apologize but I don't recall that.

You can buy the i.mx31 online for $27 in quantities of 150 and $25 in quantities of 1000. I have no idea whether that is in the budget for a device like this, or how much other processors like the MMSP2+ cost.

But debating processors or second-guessing whatever they pick won't be too helpful if they have decided already what to use.

 

[sam fisher]

It's relevant as hes pointing out that if the new handheld shares the flaws then it will have the same subsequent drawbacks!

Epicentre, it's just a MMSP2+ as the base. They have hyped it up to sound around the level of the i.mx31 but I think that the freescale SoC is just too expensive to use.

Did one of the guys making this thing say it was the MMXP2+? I apologize but I don't recall that.

You can buy the i.mx31 online for $27 in quantities of 150 and $25 in quantities of 1000. I have no idea whether that is in the budget for a device like this, or how much other processors like the MMSP2+ cost.

But debating processors or second-guessing whatever they pick won't be too helpful if they have decided already what to use.

They have already decided what they will use, hence the prototype models. It's been pointed out on the german site I believe, that it is using the MMSP2+ and its been posted here lots and the guys making it haven't denied it...

 

[norm]

i love this now, i didnt like the original ruffs but... *drools* me likes

 

[DaveC]

Why should everybody want the same thing as you? People want to play 3d ports and with an analogue stick in addition to the dir pad you can, you can also emulate a mouse 1000 times better with an analogue stick making thousands of more games more playable.

But the whole point is that *every* other goddamn console and handheld is 3D nowdays. You want it so bad choose from one of those. It is not like there is nothing to choose from that has 3D and analog. Why ruin something that is different than those and is better for 2D stuff and emus etc. Metal Slug with an analog? No fuckin way. And I don't want some stupid stick poking out of the front of the thing. Analog was one of the most hated thing on the zodiac now all of a sudden you all just have to have it. It makes no sense.

 

[Dzz]

They have already decided what they will use, hence the prototype models. It's been pointed out on the german site I believe, that it is using the MMSP2+ and its been posted here lots and the guys making it haven't denied it...

If that's true then the wacky documentation policies of MagicEyes make it difficult to assess at this point what can actually be done with the chip. We'll puzzle it out in the long run though!

 

[KeyboardCowboy]

Epicentre, it's just a MMSP2+ as the base. They have hyped it up to sound around the level of the i.mx31 but I think that the freescale SoC is just too expensive to use.

"Epicentre"?

I researched into the MMSP2+ quite some time ago. Unfortunately it is a very primitive chip, and its inclusion in such a device would be a critical error. MagicEyes' demonstration of their inability to adhere to ARM reference standard typically cripples their designs. As a prime example, lack of direct memory access between CPU/Blitter/RAM in the MMSP2, resulting in comparatively poor blitting performance, a proprietary and limited multiprocessor interface, lack of implementation of a secondary memory mapper unit, etc. The MMSP2+ is also built with a primitive 130nm process that results in inefficient operation and inordinately heavy power consumption.

In addition, this model shows many of the design compromises of the MMSP2. Example: The coprocessor is a ARM946E-S part, which is scaled-down CPU much like the ARM940T. Again, it lacks an MMU which will make multiprocessor apps cumbersome and difficult to develop. Neither CPU contains an FPU, further limiting the capabilities of a device utilizing this architecture. The problems will be compounded if the system utilizes a shared memory bank for both CPUs, and the 2D/3D accelerator blocks such as the GP2X, resulting in wasted CPU time shuffling data about the varying components. This issue could be circumvented with full DMA access from all components to Main RAM, however I strongly doubt MagicEyes has implemented this. The previous iteration of the hardware, MMSP2, did not even implement DMA access between the SD card interface and Main RAM, resulting in the CPU slowing to 1% of its usual performance when any media was accessed.

While the MMSP2+ is a superior part to the MMSP2, its use would cripple the potential of the device and ensure a short lifespan.

 

[Samba Pa Ti]

It's relevant as hes pointing out that if the new handheld shares the flaws then it will have the same subsequent drawbacks!

not to sound like a 2x fanboy but it just seemed a little bit trollish having a dig at every flaw of the 2x (which we are all well aware of), after all isnt this why the new handheld is being made ? (and because of gph's lack of interest in fixing the problems).

 

[Dzz]

i love this now, i didnt like the original ruffs but... *drools* me likes

Yup, that's a fantastic bit of modeling there. If DaveC didn't hate wide screens we could maybe convince him to do a version with the actual screen they have said they are using, which will make the whole thing wider.

 

[KeyboardCowboy]

You can buy the i.mx31 online for $27 in quantities of 150 and $25 in quantities of 1000. I have no idea whether that is in the budget for a device like this, or how much other processors like the MMSP2+ cost.

I have confirmed this fact with the hardware engineers at the now-defunct "GAMEPARK". Such an SoC should fit well into the budget of a low-cost consumer electronics device or a game console, even produced in such (relatively) small quantities as would be a successor to the GP2X.

not to sound like a 2x fanboy but it just seemed a little bit trollish having a dig at every flaw of the 2x (which we are all well aware of), after all isnt this why the new handheld is being made ? (and because of gph's lack of interest in fixing the problems).

As I do not spend substantial time perusing these forums I would be unaware if low-level technical shortcomings of the MMSP2 chipset would be common knowledge. However, if such shortcomings are not recognized and corrected, any successor product is likely to suffer similar pitfalls.

 

[DaveC]

isnt this a bit offtopic talking about the gp2x's flaws ? i dont see how its relevant...

No it is Epicenter, he makes a career of pointing out GP2X flaws, he can't help it, part of his OCD

 

[Samba Pa Ti]

As I do not spend substantial time perusing these forums I would be unaware if low-level technical shortcomings of the MMSP2 chipset would be common knowledge. However, if such shortcomings are not recognized and corrected, any successor product is likely to suffer similar pitfalls.

yes but the main problem is the Gp2x does what its designed to do, and its pretty good at it as well, i dont see how using a more advanced chip than the one in the 2x would be a shortcomming (since the 2x is pretty capable of what i was designed for).

 

[Metal-Geo]

Metal Slug with an analog? No fuckin way.

wtf?

 

[sbock]

They have already decided what they will use, hence the prototype models. It's been pointed out on the german site I believe, that it is using the MMSP2+ and its been posted here lots and the guys making it haven't denied it...

If that's true then the wacky documentation policies of MagicEyes make it difficult to assess at this point what can actually be done with the chip. We'll puzzle it out in the long run though!


Very well said, Dzz. As mentioned before, the software decides if the hardware is good or bad. And the GP2x for example has tons of good software and many highly motivated and capable developers like you.
When the new device gets some of these devs on it's side, it cannot fail in my opinion...

Regards,
Stephan

 

[KeyboardCowboy]

There is no doubt remarkable things have been done with a platform as limiting as the GP2X. However the potential for exceptional software developers to create impressive projects on flawed hardware is not a rational justification for the intentional design of a machine that contains a wealth of shortcomings from the very beginning. Especially when a chipset better suited to the tasks at hand is readily available at a very reasonable price point.

The greater concern to have than that the specifications of the MMSP2+ are not enough of an improvement over those of the MMSP2, is that the very nature of MagicEyes' PR and methods of providing documentation make it extremely difficult to estimate what features are even available in their products before purchase. If the same issues persist from the previous generation to the last, as it appears they will, the chipset and therefore any machine based upon it will never achieve its potential.