Craigix Discloses Information On New Gp2x?

[jmetal88]

Plus everyone is talking 3D, analog. This wasn't supposed to be a PSP/DS clone where 3D is the main focus. For that we already have zillions of 3D systems out there. Why does *everything* have to be the same? We already have DS, PSP, Xbox, PS2, PS3, Xbox360, Wii etc that are already 3D. Don't you have enough? This thing does 3D but was not the MAIN focus. It is not just yet another PSP clone. The fact is analog is total shit for MOST PC-ports, emulation, etc. If you want this so bad play one of the other the other MANY 3D based systems out there. BTW the DS does fine with a D-pad and a touchscreen and it is 3D.

"Why does *everything* have to be the same?"

Why should everybody want the same thing as you? People want to play 3d ports and with an analogue stick in addition to the dir pad you can, you can also emulate a mouse 1000 times better with an analogue stick making thousands of more games more playable.

The DS does not do fine with the touchscreen FPS games in general are absolute crap to play. that thumb strap will not work on a single screen system as you wont be able to see anything because your thumb will cover the screen.

The whole point of this system is to push the envelope even further, the next step to is to emulate 3d systems and even see some 3d homebrew. This system is supposed to be more powerfull than the psp for homebrew and emulation after all.

YOU DONT WANT 3D WE GET IT ALREADY!!! YOU DONT WANT ANALOGUE WE GET IT ALREADY!!!

but we do...


Personally, I think mouse would be done better on the touch screen... Slide to aim, tap to fire. Makes sense to me.

 

[kanzlr]

personally i love the FPS control on the NDS. the metroid system works superb. aim with the thumb, move with the dpad. superb. just like with a mouse.

 

[Exophase]

If I see N64 mentioned in this thread one more time I'm going to claw my eyes out. For A_SN: it won't have an FPU coprocessor, for everyone else: no FPU coprocessor means no N64 emulation at acceptable speed (just stop the arguments and comparisons with PSP, the only thing that matters is PSP actually does have an FPU)

What it will have is floating point programmable T&L, think something like vertex shaders. So what this means is that at least you'll HOPEFULLY be able to use FPU in OpenGL and it won't be completely backwards.

Also, you guys are all submitting prototype pics, some of them are pretty cool looking (and a lot of them are copies of the others) but why are you bothering? It's not like they don't have the design decided already.

 

[Amitk]

Hmm.. I agree with Iorgy77, an analog stick is needed, especially with all that power, we're bound to have 3-d homebrew and it would be unplayable due to the controls. I have a DS Lite, and when I play Metroid, in about an hour my hands hurt really bad. So personally it isn't really comfortable.

 

[jmetal88]

Hmm.. I agree with Iorgy77, an analog stick is needed, especially with all that power, we're bound to have 3-d homebrew and it would be unplayable due to the controls. I have a DS Lite, and when I play Metroid, in about an hour my hands hurt really bad. So personally it isn't really comfortable.

I don't understand why 3D homebrew developed for a device without an analog stick would be unplayable on a device without an analog stick.

 

[___]

personally i love the FPS control on the NDS. the metroid system works superb. aim with the thumb, move with the dpad. superb. just like with a mouse.

Yeah, do that on only one screen... lol. I wanna see you slide your thumb over the units screen and I bet I can beat you playing quake3 only with a dpad. Seriously, the fps control scheme on the DS only works as it has two screens. Ofcourse there is the possibility of using a part of the touchscreen for controls, but how small will the viewport be then? C'mon.

@Exophase: No fpu at all except for T&L? Ah too bad... float point would have been great! For example for physics games and the likes. That is a little sad... oh well.

 

[JyCet]

If I see N64 mentioned in this thread one more time I'm going to claw my eyes out. For A_SN: it won't have an FPU coprocessor, for everyone else: no FPU coprocessor means no N64 emulation at acceptable speed (just stop the arguments and comparisons with PSP, the only thing that matters is PSP actually does have an FPU)

What it will have is floating point programmable T&L, think something like vertex shaders. So what this means is that at least you'll HOPEFULLY be able to use FPU in OpenGL and it won't be completely backwards.

Also, you guys are all submitting prototype pics, some of them are pretty cool looking (and a lot of them are copies of the others) but why are you bothering? It's not like they don't have the design decided already.

I think because the hardware is probably choose but not the final design ... so it's now or never to share some idea and perhaps the final design will integrate some part of very nice prototype pics

I personnaly like the lcd sliding, it keep a solide part for hands and all buttons

 

[Esslan]

I would like an analog stick to play gameports like: Duke 3D, Shadow Warrior, Quake, Quake 2, Rise of the Triad, Doom etc.
I use my gp2x to play duke 3d more than I use it play play SNES.

@DaveC: True, you can play 3d games on PS2, Xbox, Xbox360, but they arent exactly HANDHELD so I dont see what this has to do with anything.

I mean, Its like if i would say: There are TONS of systems made for 2d already , NES, SNES, Genesis, Master System etc. Because you want a handheld open source system to play on. Me too, but I also happen to like playing 3d games on it to. And neither the ds or PSP are open source so I dont know of ANY portable open source device that is 3d games oriented. If you do, please show me so I can get my hands on it.

But I totally agree with you on the screen thing. I prefer 4:3 as i dont plan on wathing movies on it.

No that this rant matters at all. It is going to be widescreen without analog and I'm going to buy it and love it as much as i love the gp2x

 

[pferguso]

Here are some examples of handheld consoles made in China:

The one with the RED D-pad is the only one that is going to be nice on the thumb, and great for diagonals. The smaller the D-pad, the better. This is how a Gameboy Advance and the old NES control is. The rest of these devices are just trying to avoid stepping on patents, which is ridiculous.

 

[kingbuzzo]

YOU DONT WANT 3D WE GET IT ALREADY!!! YOU DONT WANT ANALOGUE WE GET IT ALREADY!!!

but we do...

I don't... I could care less for 3d on a handheld. It always looks so cheap and silly, combined with the fact that it makes me dizzy after a while too.

2d is perfect for handhelds and always looks awesome. Why screw around with that? I would be happy if this system has the same approach as the sega saturns first designs: Being mainly a 2d system with some 3d capabilities. Even NiGHTS was very playable with the saturn digi pad (which was the best pad ever thank you).

I guess I don't want some clunky analog stick popping out of this thing so I can play some psx games that I always thought were lousy in the first place. There are many great psx games, but all the ones I like are mosty 2d (or at least 2d oriented), and control much better with the d-pad. They also tend to be the games that are more widely remembered than others.

And ya, AT LEAST s-video please. I would love to see RGB but since us hosers across the pond don't have rgb monitors, component and/or vga would be tight!

The smaller the D-pad, the better. This is how a Gameboy Advance and the old NES control is.

But the smaller it is, the harder it is to pull off precise directions don't you think? And the d-pads on the gba and nes are not the best for diagonals by a long shot. Ever try doing desperation moves or 20 hit combos in fighting games with those things? Or try to dodge a bullet in a shootemup my moving your ship diagonally? It can be done, but you probably wont have even an 80% success rate. Obviously it wouldn't be the end of the world if the dpad was only as good as the gba or nes, but why settle for that when we know we can do so much better to make the competition look silly?

 

[rx_shorty]

Well all nice indeed the concepts, but we just have to wait.
And the D-pad is going to be one component, that is good.

I just wished the time was there right now you revealed it

Though I want to watch movies on it, so the better the tv-out is the better

 

[naples39]

My preferences would be for a 4-way dpad, similar to the design on the original GBA.

I've used several different types of 8-way dpads and I didn't like the control on any of them. They inevitably wear down and create a very unfriendly diagonal bias in my experience.

I wasn't big on the keyboard adding cost and bulk to the unit, but a lot of those slide designs look very nice and I certainly wouldn't complain about those.

As for analog sticks, I think many are completing overstating their importance. Like keyboards, I'm not per se against an analog stick if it can be made to work smoothly without adding cost and bulk, but I just don't see the need. Analog sticks are significantly worse for playing 2d games (which will undoubtedly be what most gp2x games/emulators are for), and it's hardly a necessity for 3d games. I've played the entire way through Mario 64 on a DS using the dpad, and it did not present any problems at all. Anyone who says 3d games are unplayable on a dpad has never tried. Even if this new unit achieves great PSX emulation, the simple reality is that 99% of PSX games were designed to be played on dpads, even if analog stick does help out control on a minority of games.

 

[pepone]

If they can design the pad to be like DaveC's mod, it would be great. I have the mod on my GP2X and it just feel perfect. Much better that the psp or the DS fat.

 

[Esslan]

I agree that they aren't unplayable. But for me at least, playing a fps with a dpad is like playing a 2d platformer with a analog stick. I guess I should add that meant i would like an dpad + analog stick, not just a analog stick. so you can use the dpad for walking(wasd) and the stick for aiming.

 

[kingbuzzo]

here are my faves




Shot at 2007-08-10

these wont wear down after time either. Well maybe the buttons on the ngcd pad

 

[lubidog]

This could get silly! The truth is some of us will want to play 3D games and some of us won't. Some of us want to see movies on it and some of us don't etc.

So stop all the "It stupid to have 3d games on a handheld" or "I want N64!!!" etc because a middle ground has to be drawn.

If this thing is really gonna be built then we have to consider the commercial viability of the thing. They can't just build an old school retro machine for us few retro heads, they have to believe that they cmake money from this thing! It can't take on the PSP or Ds unless it has serious advantages over them. Dace, there has probably been more 2d handheld machines than 3d ones, so I don't understand your argument at all. This thing will probably (i reckon!) be selling with PSX playability out of the box. So if an analogue stick is stuck on there, it will just make more commercial sense. And the PDA functions that have been hinted at will make this attractive to other buyers etc and that is why this thing could be built!

This won't be another niche product, it will have to be a mainstream proposition, otherwise they can't make money! It will have to sell. For example, I was about to buy a nokia n800. I won't know, I will wait for this cos of the wifi internet possibilities.

The point I am making is that what is best for the money men is best for us. They can't build this out of charity, ihas to sell more than the GP2x etc.

BTW anyone who says that 3D on a handheld doesn't work is talking rubbish. Ridge Racer, Outrun Coast to Coast etc on the PSP work beautifully, whether you like the games or not. And the DS has a fair few too! Heck, even Mario Kart on the GBA 'worked'! Whether you need an analogue for them or not is another matter, or whether you 'get them' or not.

 

[damned]

if theres no 3d then this won't be much of a step up from the gp2x, but I'll still buy one anyhow.

 

[KeyboardCowboy]

It is a moot point to discuss if the machine should be capable of 3D or not. A serious deficiency of the GP2X design is the fact that it lacks any real 2D/3D acceleration hardware. There is a blitter, yes, but due to faults in the MMSP2 design, it does not provide any significant advantage over software blitting of graphics.

The designers of this system, whomever they may be, have expressed interest in building a general purpose device, much like a PDA or mobile communications device, that is also capable of comfortable gameplay. In order to keep up with the curve of technology (as well as maintain compatibility with the widest range of pre-existing software), a modern SoC using an ARM-series processor, ideally ARM11 (but ARM9 would work as well) would be the logical route to take. They have also expressed interest in multi-CPU architecture. SoCs from Samsung or Texas Instruments' OMAP series would more than fit this need. The ideal choice, I believe, would be the Freescale i.MX31, but a number of products could fit the bill nicely.

The point is, all of these products provide 2D and 3D acceleration, because in modern SoCs, the two are one and the same. The most common graphics implementation, because it is ARM's reference standard, is PowerVR's MBX architecture. This provides powerful 2D acceleration for very intensive 2D games, enabling enormous gains over software blitting and additional effects very useful for homebrew titles as well as intensive emulation, such as alpha blending, scaling, rotation; as well as a full host of 3D features, high fill rates, and impressive maximum polygon counts (>1 Million).

Such SoCs also implement Vector-FPUs which would be more than suitable for accelerating 3D transform math, or could be implemented for use in intensive emulation, many applications of which require or would be able to make use of a proper FPU. Many modern SoCs also include a programmable DSP with a limitless array of possibilities for its use.

This is in addition to a powerful CPU, often in excess of 500 MHz, which still draws minimal amounts of power. The dual 200 MHz CPUs in the GP2X's MMSP2 chipset give a poor estimation of proper power consumption, as the MagicEyes-designed implementation is primitive, breaks ARM's reference standards, and uses a very old fabrication process, all of which result in excessive energy waste. A properly-designed mobile device utilizing a 533 MHz ARM11 processor, VFPU and MBX 2D/3D accelerator-integrated SoC would not have difficulty attaining a battery life of over 4 hours under typical use, and this is a conservative figure. It's not uncommon to see PDAs attain the same. Use of a WiFi radio would of course decrease this life, as in any device and exact battery life will depend on the capacity of the LiIon battery included. This power draw could be further reduced by implementing software controls to adjust WiFi transmitter power as well as clockrate of major SoC blocks (CPU, Secondary CPU, VFPU, Graphics Subsystem). Modern ARM architecture includes numerous power saving facilities that are not utilized by the GP2X's ARM920T or ARM940T.

If there is anything the GP2X has proven, however, it is that the smallest mistake can cripple a machine if it impacts how the unit is controlled. It is imperative any machine meant to correct the GP2X's faults do away with the issue of nonstandard and cumbersome controls first and foremost.

 

[lubidog]

It is a moot point to discuss if the machine should be capable of 3D or not. A serious deficiency of the GP2X design is the fact that it lacks any real 2D/3D acceleration hardware. There is a blitter, yes, but due to faults in the MMSP2 design, it does not provide any significant advantage over software blitting of graphics.

The designers of this system, whomever they may be, have expressed interest in building a general purpose device, much like a PDA or mobile communications device, that is also capable of comfortable gameplay. In order to keep up with the curve of technology (as well as maintain compatibility with the widest range of pre-existing software), a modern SoC using an ARM-series processor, ideally ARM11 (but ARM9 would work as well). They have also expressed interest in multi-CPU architecture. SoCs from Samsung or Texas Instruments' OMAP series would more than fit this need. The ideal choice, I believe, would be the Freescale i.MX31, but a number of products could fit the bill nicely.

The point is, all of these products provide 2D and 3D acceleration, because in modern SoCs, the two are one and the same. The most common graphics implementation, because it is ARM's reference standard, is PowerVR's MBX architecture. This provides powerful 2D acceleration for very intensive 2D games, enabling enormous gains over software blitting and additional effects very useful for homebrew titles as well as intensive emulation, such as alpha blending, scaling, rotation; as well as a full host of 3D features, high fill rates, and impressive maximum polygon counts (>1 Million).

Such SoCs also impement Vector-FPUs which would be more than suitable for accelerating 3D transform math, or could be implemented for use in intensive emulation, many applications of which require or would be able to make use of a proper FPU. Many also include a programmable DSP with a limitless array of possibilities for its use. The issue with the GP2X isn't that secondary processors are useless, but rather, that it uses a nonstandard and heavily-flawed implementation of multiprocessor architecture that results in its use being cumbersome and its applications highly limited.

This is in addition to a powerful CPU, often in excess of 500 MHz, which still draws minimal amounts of power. The dual 200 MHz CPUs in the GP2X's MMSP2 chipset give a poor estimation of proper power consumption, as the MagicEyes-designed implementation is primitive, breaks ARM's reference standards, and uses a very old fabrication process, all of which result in excessive energy waste. A properly-designed mobile device utilizing a 533 Mhz ARM11 processor, VFPU and MBX 2D/3D accelerator-integrated SoC would not have difficulty attaining a battery life of over 4 hours. It's not uncommon to see PDAs attain the same. Use of a WiFi radio would of course decrease this life, as in any device and exact battery life will depend on the capacity of the LiIon battery included.

If there is anything the GP2X has proven, however, it is that the smallest mistake can cripple a machine if it impacts how the unit is controlled. It is imperative any machine meant to correct the GP2X's faults do away with the issue of nonstandard and cumbersome controls first and foremost.

That was brilliant...

But...who are you...? Joined today and know more about all this than most of us.....?

 

[fusion_power]

To play 3D Games on the new handheld, you first NEED 3D games. :lol:
Because N64&Co emus are unlikely, the option is to play homebrew 3D Games...but afaik this is a very poor and sad chapter of Homebrewing. ^^" Fact is, the best 3D games are still commercial games with some exceptions of course. Never forget, such stuff has to be coded first and I would say 3D is not easier to progg than 2D. Yes, we have ports like Quake to play but I can't imagine, that Quake 2+3 would play well on a handheld.
At the end the Machine rises and fall with the available Software. And as long as 2D is so dominant in Homebrew sector, there is no real need to focus the console to 3D apps. And I also want no analog-stick because these things are usualy just in the way when you want to play with D-Pad. Somewhere your hands have to rest when playing and sticks overall are not very helpful for easy holding the device I think.
Like mentioned before, we have a Touchscreen for analog usage.
Touchscreen, maybe keyboard and D-Pad, my good isn't this just more than enough? :lol: