COVID-19 / Coronavirus Pandemic

[ElPoco]

The free-market is brutely efficient at getting people what they want and organising people to do that work.

It's not even that efficient.
Unchecked free-market will get people the cheapest possible thing that passes at what they want. Enjoy that cereal that is only 75% sawdust.
I'm not even sure it gets people what they want, but what it makes people think they want with advertising and other mind manipulation scheme.

 

[levi]

I doubt that. The governments did not do the work, the people did the work.

Both of those projects were to the best of my knowledge originally military plans that later got spun out into the public domain. Sure the military is made of people, just specially trained people that work for an arm of the government.

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

The free-market is brutely efficient at getting people what they want and organising people to do that work. However. we need government and standards to limit the free-market to keep it sustainable.

An unchecked free-market:

• does not respond to the limitations of exponential growth, for example it regularly leads to stock market collapses and cyclic economics.
• ignores the boundaries imposed by nature until the damage is irreparable, for example positive feedbacks in nitrogen and carbon cycles, collapsing fish stocks, ad nauseum.
• re-enforces Pareto distributions wherever they arise - "winner takes all", "money begets money" - and so we need government to impose fair competition laws and to break up cartels or monopolies.

The government is also needed to coordinate the free-market on scales larger than corporations, for example the government might recognise that the economy needs more energy. The government then has to coordinate house building companies and transport companies to get the infrastructure in place before the power supply company can start building a power station.

So you want a government-controlled "free" market? That sounds like an oxymoron. Considering the fact that the government is very easy to sway through lobbying by rich large corporations, I think that your argument works against you. What about cases such as e.g. copyright law being specifically tailored to give Disney an advantage? That only makes the government-controlled "free" market more winner-takes-all than an actual free market would be.

EDIT: When you vote, do you vote for a government who is likely to provide these essential services or who will undermine them?

I do not vote.

But if I were, I would probably vote for a government that does not provide the services of lobbying and giving grants to large corporations. I do not think that those services are essential.

 

[levi]

So you want a government-controlled "free" market? That sounds like an oxymoron.

Yet it's how the western world works. Through laws like monopoly laws and carbon credits, we limit the freedom in the market and channel it in specific directions. It's not ideal, I'll grant you and your examples of lobbying by corporations, and the ever extending copyright term are classic problems this model faces, but the alternatives (outright government control, or an entirely free market that will gladly wreck the people and the planet) I can't see a better basic model to follow.

 

[ElPoco]

Yet it's how the western world works. Through laws like monopoly laws and carbon credits, we limit the freedom in the market and channel it in specific directions. It's not ideal, I'll grant you and your examples of lobbying by corporations, and the ever extending copyright term are classic problems this model faces, but the alternatives (outright government control, or an entirely free market that will gladly wreck the people and the planet) I can't see a better basic model to follow.

I think there are plenty of alternatives to "free-market" and government control. The "market" approach is not the only one. There are (or at least were) societies were you just gave your surplus to your neighbours and selling was a wicked concept.

 

[Djoga'Ro]

Hugo, how y'are doin. Last night I was sooo focused. I only noticed that I made enough RiscV CPUs for my new PC, when I'd already surpassed the target by 5. You need some?

 

[Linux-SWAT]

the US government gave us GPS and the internet:

I doubt that. The governments did not do the work, the people did the work.

Indeed, simply because politicians and bankers are parasites, not scientists.

 

[ible]

more conspiracy theories, complaints, and suspicions of people's intentions? did GPS and the internet originate ex nihilo? a healthy dose of skepticism is ok, but if you go off the deep end, make sure not to swim towards the sharks.

not everything the government does is good, but at least you can reform it in a democracy.

 

[matzesu]

You can make that much conspiracy theoreys you want, they dont harm that much, as long you keep distance, wear your mask when you are in puplic etc..

A good conspiracy theory tells from a good amount of fantasy, ^^

EDIT: CT: "There is no Bielefeld",

 

[Phlyra]

A good conspiracy theory tells from a good amount of fantasy, ^^

Unless you’re a Naztory, in which case it’s no longer conspiracy theory but conspiracy fact and happening as a daily occurrence...

 

[matzesu]

Therefore i wrote "Good Conspiracy Theory", which dont harm others..

 

[JDTAY]

India now has the record for most COVID-19 cases in one day by a country, at 314,000. Considering their population is like three times the United States population though, I don't think we should give them the record until they post a cool million. At their current rate, that's still like a month away.

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

more conspiracy theories, complaints, and suspicions of people's intentions? did GPS and the internet originate ex nihilo? a healthy dose of skepticism is ok, but if you go off the deep end, make sure not to swim towards the sharks.

I already explained about the internet so I will not repeat that here. As to the other things you say, they are very vague and your argument seems to rely mostly on using emotionally loaded experessions. Do you mean that things such as the Micky Mouse Protection Act or the many crimes of the banking systems do not exist or are actually just or insignificant? They are using the copyright system to fight against content creators, destroy cultural records, and stiffle innovation; all for the benefit of large corporations. And the dollar is even worse, scamming other countries and guaranteeing that their own people will suffer poverty; all for the benefit of the government and ,most of all, the banks.

And just for the record, the USA is a great example of this because their government is well known and very influential but it seems that many countries are just as bad. I know my country is.

not everything the government does is good, but at least you can reform it in a democracy.

For one thing, we do not really have a democracy. The people who control the money supply also control the country. When is the last time that you voted on which banker get to control the money supply? I say "we" without referring to country, but this actually goes for both my favourite example the USA as well as for my own country. So interpret that in whichever of those two ways you want.

Secondly, a large government controlled by democracy is not even ethical. Nowadays many people complain about minorities being oppressed and preach about the wonderfulness of democracy. What most people seem to forget is that democracy by definition is rule by majority. That means that it gives the majority power over the minority. Oppressing minorities is the point of democracy.

If democracy was just then it would be just to have a group of 2 people rob a single individual. Such a robbing would likely be democratic by a 2 against 1 vote in faovur of it happening. But that does not make it just. The majority robbing the minority of freedom is just as wrong as the majority robbing the minority of possessions is. Freedom is a important for human happiness and that is why big government, which by definition is against freedom, is always wrong; even when it is controlled by the majority against the minority.

 

[ElPoco]

What most people seem to forget is that democracy by definition is rule by majority. That means that it gives the majority power over the minority. Oppressing minorities is the point of democracy.

No. That's a common misconception about democracy.
If the majority decides to infringe on the human rights of a minority, then the minority doesn't have its democratic rights (cannot be represented/heard/vote/etc.) hence it's no longer a democracy. That's why democracies have constitutions, separation of powers with courts that can overrule the written law. A tyranny of majority is not a democracy.

 

[netcat]

Democracy is about choosing your leader and most importantly everyone having a voice. A lot of people get over it quickly when their party loses and just support the winner. Like my grandparents. I respect this attitude.

USA as well as my country adopted democracy because foreigners with weapons were taking our money and telling us to shut the fuck up. We never wanted to be silenced again and we wanted to make our own laws so we could have guns, drink alcohol all day, worship our own gods, etc.

And it's mainly corporation that want small government not "the people".

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

No. That's a common misconception about democracy.
If the majority decides to infringe on the human rights of a minority, then the minority doesn't have its democratic rights (cannot be represented/heard/vote/etc.) hence it's no longer a democracy. That's why democracies have constitutions, separation of powers with courts that can overrule the written law. A tyranny of majority is not a democracy.

That sounds more like a republic. A republic limits the government's power in order to protect minorities. This seems like a much better system. Too bad that it is extremely rare, if it exists anywhere at all.

 

[netcat]

Anyway... i'm off to get my jab. Using it as an excuse to get shitfaced. Wish me luck.

 

[ible]

niice, besides the alcohol part. drink in moderation

you can find examples of towns trying to go full libertarian -- cut down on government, make people pay for their own street lamps, etc.

e.g.

The Short, Unhappy Life of a Libertarian Paradise

The residents of Colorado Springs undertook a radical experiment in lean government. Here’s what they got.

www.politico.com

and

The Rise and Fall of the 'Freest Little City in Texas'

How a libertarian experiment in city government fell apart over taxes, debt and some very angry people.

www.google.com

as you can imagine, it was not the paradise people thought it would be... i'm still standing by the fact that the US govt invented the internet and GPS, btw, so if you use either of those you're welcome

 

[ElPoco]

Don't forget the time bears decided to move in: https://newrepublic.com/article/159662/libertarian-walks-into-bear-book-review-free-town-project

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

niice, besides the alcohol part. drink in moderation

you can find examples of towns trying to go full libertarian -- cut down on government, make people pay for their own street lamps, etc.

e.g.

The Short, Unhappy Life of a Libertarian Paradise

The residents of Colorado Springs undertook a radical experiment in lean government. Here’s what they got.

www.politico.com

and

The Rise and Fall of the 'Freest Little City in Texas'

How a libertarian experiment in city government fell apart over taxes, debt and some very angry people.

www.google.com

as you can imagine, it was not the paradise people thought it would be... i'm still standing by the fact that the US govt invented the internet and GPS, btw, so if you use either of those you're welcome

I would have to look deeper in those cases than a single potentially biased article on each. But if we're going by cherry-picked examples, how abou the Nazi regime or Stalin's regime? Or how about both world wars? Both were presents from governments.

Also, I already said that anarchies, republics, and democatics are likely impossible to make nowadays. A few people are like wolfs wanting nothing but to gain as much control over others as they can and a large part of the population is like sheep desperate to trade in their freedom for promises of safety. Those two can never live together and have peace. Peace requires independence and independence has been eradicated from humanity through many decades of big government much like how many pets have become dependent on their owners.

As for your logic about the internet, GNU/Linux was made by the people using an anarchist method of organisation, so if you use that, "you are welcome". Also, the internet was made by non-government people with the government merely paying money that was made valuable by non-government people to the people who made the internet, so if you use that, "you are welcome" too.
Without the government we would also have internet. The same kind of people that brought us things such as GNU/Linux and the same kind of people who actually made the internet would have made the internet regardless of whether a government ordered them to or not.