COVID-19 / Coronavirus Pandemic

[ElPoco]

It sounds like the old "could you kill one person to potentially save a hundred" moral dilemma. There's no easy answer, and I don't believe that drugs companies would really want that negative stigma over their heads either.

It's not the drug companies taking the decision here, but the governments.

And our governments have repeatedly shown that they're not trying to save as many lives as possible. What they are trying to do is keep their donors and electorate pleased enough to be able to get re-elected (all the while staying aligned with their ideals, but in many cases these coincide with keeping their donors pleased).
They're fine with taking decisions that will lead to deaths if they think that it'll make them more likely to get re-elected.

Having a strict lockdown might save more lives than pulling off the Astra Zeneca vaccine, but it won't be popular with the donors (companies want to keep making business) and some of the voters.
However, pulling off the Astra Zeneca vaccine won't piss off that many people. But if they keep it and there are stories about how it killed people (no matter if it's true or not), it'll be easy for some people to spin a story about how "our government failed us: look at [other country], they pulled it off, our government has no excuse for not doing the same."

 

[pyrat]

It sounds like the old "could you kill one person to potentially save a hundred" moral dilemma. There's no easy answer, and I don't believe that drugs companies would really want that negative stigma over their heads either.

Maybe it's that for some, but I'm not there yet. I read only warnings or reassurements without any proper numbers. "The incidence is lower in AstraZeneca recipients than in the general population" (how much? how counted?), "this or that person died shortly after vaccination" (just they or many more?, how about the ones who died unvaccinated?), or something like that.
I'd need numbers. Can't somebody write a short page with:

• diagnostics, date diagnosed, date vaccinated and territory for the cases detected, with any patient attributes relevant to the diagnostic (age, premorbidity...) (add the lot of vaccine if that's relevant)
• number of AstraZeneca vaccinated people in those territories, and date of start and end of vaccination campaign (per lot of vaccine if that's relevat)
• incidence of those diagnostics in those territories in those timeframes during the last years.

With that one could start to consider whether the decision is even to kill one to save a hundred, or it's just not even a killing of one. But if all they say is just this particular anecdote was terrible or the manufacturer is saying there is nothing wrong, we can't even start a debate. It's like someone getting caught by lighiting after they took an aspirin, or a tobacco manufacturer saying it is safer that it's said to be. Maybe newsworthy, but not helpful.

Linux-SWAT is right in that the vaccine isn't properly tested (that's why it's an emergency use authorisation, not a normal one). It is being administered massively. Shouldn't we have at least some public dashboard with the above information ?

 

[pyrat]

It's not the drug companies taking the decision here, but the governments.

Right, but the companies are also taking the decision of not stopping the delivery of the drugs. In any case you're right, it's full of governments and companies spinning news to their convenience. And quite uncoordinated at that. There's a curfew in Paris, but you can take a holiday in Madrid (if you are rich enough) where there's none (or much later, I'm not sure) and fly back to your colleagues in Paris. Small border roads are closed, but highways are open. You can't get 30 friends in a barbecue, but they can gather 30000 in GSMA mobile worlds congress...

 

[ClockworkCoder]

It's not the drug companies taking the decision here, but the governments

I'm aware of that; I feel companies tend to be more cogniscent of negative publicity than goverments are.

 

[levi]

Lol, that was said by a big pharma salesman. (article's end)

Ireland suspends AstraZeneca Covid vaccine over blood clot concerns

Suspension follows similar move in Ireland due to reports in Norway of blood clots despite no proof of a link

www.theguardian.com

Yeah, but it was also parotted by WATO today, and they even said there had been some cases of blood clots with the pfizer vaccine, although again the number reported was lower than the general population.

 

[FBnil]

Maybe it's that for some, but I'm not there yet. I read only warnings or reassurements without any proper numbers. "The incidence is lower in AstraZeneca recipients than in the general population" (how much? how counted?), "this or that person died shortly after vaccination" (just they or many more?, how about the ones who died unvaccinated?), or something like that.
I'd need numbers. Can't somebody write a short page with:

• diagnostics, date diagnosed, date vaccinated and territory for the cases detected, with any patient attributes relevant to the diagnostic (age, premorbidity...) (add the lot of vaccine if that's relevant)
• number of AstraZeneca vaccinated people in those territories, and date of start and end of vaccination campaign (per lot of vaccine if that's relevant)
• incidence of those diagnostics in those territories in those timeframes during the last years.

With that one could start to consider whether the decision is even to kill one to save a hundred, or it's just not even a killing of one. But if all they say is just this particular anecdote was terrible or the manufacturer is saying there is nothing wrong, we can't even start a debate. It's like someone getting caught by lighiting after they took an aspirin, or a tobacco manufacturer saying it is safer that it's said to be. Maybe newsworthy, but not helpful.

Linux-SWAT is right in that the vaccine isn't properly tested (that's why it's an emergency use authorisation, not a normal one). It is being administered massively. Shouldn't we have at least some public dashboard with the above information ?

You know that some of that raw data might not even be available, just the summary (which might not contain data like "age range") and conclusions, which then are re-interpreted and posted... most of these things are "dude, trust me".

Now that being said you might be able to request the data directly from EMA:

EMA’s safety committee continues investigation of COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca and thromboembolic events – further update | European Medicines Agency (EMA)

www.ema.europa.eu

EMA press office
Tel. +31 (0)88 781 8427
E-mail: press@ema.europa.eu

 

[levi]

They say:

The number of thromboembolic events overall in vaccinated people seems not to be higher than that seen in the general population.

I don't know why they say seems. Are the suspecting foul play amongst the statisticians, or the doctors. But if we ingore that it says the same things that the media here is reporting.

The only query they have is why some of these thromboembolic events have so few platlets in them. So to summarise, you're less likely to clot if your vaccinated, plus you'd be vaccinates against the worst affects of the virus, but if you do clot they might not be normal clots.

 

[JDTAY]

I was at the hospital earlier, and they ran the standard COVID tests they do for everyone. They cleared me within a few minutes while I was there, but just a few minutes ago, they called me to say again that I was clear. I guess they just finished the more thorough version of the test.

That said, they tested me on the way in, not the way out...

 

[Linux-SWAT]

I've heard an interesting theory. The Oxford/AstraZeneca mess could well have been pushed to make people go for the "safer" mRNA stuff, which is as safe as can be an untested thing that can mess with your DNA.

Chaos in Germany and Italy after suspension of Oxford vaccine

Decision has led to vaccination centres closing doors and appointments being abruptly cancelled

www.theguardian.com

 

[JDTAY]

I just read about a study that says kids in school only need to be three feet apart.

Now they tell us.

 

[JDTAY]

Also was reading about how Duke University is battling a COVID-19 outbreak so bad that it made national news.

Both my sisters went to Chapel Hill though, so schadenfreude and all that.

 

[pyrat]

I've heard an interesting theory. The Oxford/AstraZeneca mess could well have been pushed to make people go for the "safer" mRNA stuff, which is as safe as can be an untested thing that can mess with your DNA.

Chaos in Germany and Italy after suspension of Oxford vaccine

Decision has led to vaccination centres closing doors and appointments being abruptly cancelled

www.theguardian.com

I don't know. The latest news reports hint at possible political motivation. I think this one is about no doctors, scientists or medical agencies advising on suspending AstraZenenca but governments deciding so one after another. It would have something to do with either:

• chance
• political quarrels between EU butthurt for Brexit and UK, since Oxford/Astrazeneca is seen as british.
• economical interests since Astrazeneca is much cheaper than Pfizer and the suspension of Astrazeneca would be an excuse for the EU to advance 10 million doses of Pfizer.

It also links to a couple of 60+ page PDFs with counts of reports of side effects for the UK 2021-1-4 - 2021-2-28 [Edit: sorry I didn't realise, that was for AstraZeneca, for Pfizer there was a longer lapse 2020-12-9 - 2021-2-28], for Pfizer and Astrazeneca. There's lot of raw data but I don't know the incidence of each diagnostic in the general population and I don't know how many doses of each were administered in the same period, so I can hardly make my mind (and I wouldn't be a doctor even if I had more data dumps). I also don't know whether some vaccine was given to younger people and some to older, or any other groups that could be relevant to reports. Some almost random extract (by some text search):

Spoiler: extract

Reaction	Astrazeneca Total (in 55 days)	AstraZeneca Fatal (in 55 days)	Pfizer Total (in 81 days)	Pfizer Fatal (in 81days)	Unvaccinated cases
Total reactions	201622	275	94809	227	?
Total reports	54180		33207		?
Administration without report / No reaction	?	?	?	?	?
Blood disorders SOC TOTAL	1098	1	2294	1	?
Pulmonary embolism	13	1	15	1	?
Pulmonary infarction	1	1	1	0	?
Pulmonary thrombosis	0	0	1	0	?
Embolism	1	0	0	0	?
Thrombosis	3	0	10	0	?
Venous thrombosis	0	0	1	0	?
Haemorrhagic infarction	0	0	1	0	?
Blue toe syndrome	2	0	4	0	?
Deep vein thrombosis	14	0	8	0	?
Pelvic venous thrombosis	1	0	0	0	?
Pelvic haemorrhage	0	0	2	0	?
Thrombophlebitis	1	0	4	0	?
Thrombophlebitis superficial	1	0	0	0	?
Vena cava embolism	0	0	1	0	?
Vena cava thrombosis	0	0	1	0	?
Pulmonary haemorrhage	1	0	0	0	?
Paranasal sinus haemorrhage	1	0	0	0	?
Haemorrhage subcutaneous	1	0	2	0	?
Skin haemorrhage	2	0	2	0	?
Bloody discharge	1	0			?
Haematoma	8	0	10	0	?
Haemorrhage	20	1	22	1	?
Venous haemorrhage	0	0	1	0	?
Vaginal haemorrhage	46	0	39	0	?
Splinter haemorrhages	1	0	1	0	?
Choroidal haemorrhage	0	0	1	0	?
Vitreous haemorrhage	1	0	0	0	?
Conjunctival haemorrhage	3	0	10	0	?
Eye haemorrhage	2	0	4	0	?
Ear haemorrhage	2	0	1	0	?
Diarrhoea haemorrhagic	7	0	4	0	?
Gastric haemorrhage	1	0	2	1	?
Gastrointestinal haemorrhage	4	1	3	0	?
Haematemesis	12	0	15	2	?
Haematochezia	14	0	10	0	?
Melaena	2	0	5	0	?
Upper gastrointestinal haemorrhage	0	0	2	0	?
Retinal haemorrhage	0	0	1	0	?
Gingival bleeding	9	0	6	0	?
Anal haemorrhage	2	0	4	0	?
Rectal haemorrhage	8	0	17	0	?
Small intestinal haemorrhage	7	0	3	0	?
Haemorrhagic infarction	0	0	1	0	?
Mouth haemorrhage	1	0	2	0	?
Oral blood blister	4	0	5	0	?
Tongue haemorrhage	0	0	1	0	?
Application site haemorrhage	0	0	1	0	?
Injection site haemorrhage	1	0	2	0	?
Vaccination site haemorrhage	1	0	6	0	?
Stoma site haemorrhage	0	0	1	0	?
Hepatic artery embolism	0	0	1	0	?
Essential thrombocythaemia	0	0	1	0	?
Cerebral venous sinus thrombosis	0	0	1	0	?
Immune thrombocytopenia	0	0	9	0	?
Thrombocytopenia	0	0	13	1	?
Thrombocytosis	0	0	2	0	?
Brain stem infarction	1	1	1	1	?
Brain stem stroke	1	0	0	0	?
Cerebral haematoma	1	0	0	0	?
Cerebellar infarction	1	1	2	0	?
Cerebellar stroke	0	0	2	0	?
Cerebral artery occlusion	0	0	1	0	?
Cerebral haemorrhage	7	1	10	3	?
Cerebral infarction	1	0	7	0	?
Cerebral thrombosis	1	1	0	0	?
Cerebrovascular accident	41	6	55	3	?
Embolic stroke	1	0	1	0	?
Haemorrhage intracranial	3	0	3	0	?
Haemorrhagic stroke	4	1	1	1	?
Ischaemic cerebral infarction	0	0	1	0	?
Ischaemic stroke	9	0	11	1	?
Lacunar infarction	0	0	2	0	?
Lacunar stroke	0	0	1	0	?
Subarachnoid haemorrhage	1	0	2	1	?
Haemorrhage urinary tract	1	0	4	0	?
Postmenopausal haemorrhage	1	0	2	0	?
Genital haemorrhage	2	0	1	0	?
Pharyngeal haemorrhage	0	0	1	0	?
Tonsillar haemorrhage	0	0	24	0	?
Platelet count decreased	6	0	5	0	?

 

[ElPoco]

that can mess with your DNA.

Do you have any scientific data about this?

I've seen claims about this but I haven't seen any demonstration on how it could happen, let alone any experimental proof.
From what I've read about the theory of mRNA vaccines and discussed with health professionals, it'll be quite difficult to have it mess with your DNA since:
- DNA is in the cell nucleus, where the mRNA doesn't go
- In the body, DNA makes mRNA, the mRNA doesn't impact DNA
- mRNA is so fragile that I've heard more concerns from researchers and doctors about it degrading too fast than anything else

So far, the only option I've heard of that could mess with your DNA is Crispr, which isn't used in the vaccines.

 

[JDTAY]

@ElPoco @Linux-SWAT @ptitSeb @sebt3

New COVID-19 variant in France, apparently evades detection by PCR tests.

Latest Covid-19 Variant Discovered In France Isn’t Detected By Standard PCR Tests

The biggest concern with variants that escape detection is that they may fuel spread of the disease. And this can spawn new, more potent variants. The driving force behind the emergence of variants of concern, such as the B.1.1.7, B.1.351, and P.1, is the massive number of infections globally.

www.forbes.com

 

[pyrat]

@ElPoco @Linux-SWAT @ptitSeb @sebt3

New COVID-19 variant in France, apparently evades detection by PCR tests.

Latest Covid-19 Variant Discovered In France Isn’t Detected By Standard PCR Tests

The biggest concern with variants that escape detection is that they may fuel spread of the disease. And this can spawn new, more potent variants. The driving force behind the emergence of variants of concern, such as the B.1.1.7, B.1.351, and P.1, is the massive number of infections globally.

www.forbes.com

Great for the EU's COVID travel pass. They're going to give your data to private companies, require negative tests when tests don't detect all variants, and sometimes are falsified, or they'll require vaccionation when vaccines may eventually not protect from all variants, are still of dubious protection against contagion, can never be 100% effective, might not be forever effective, are not yet available to everyone, are not recognized by everyone (Sputnik V, Sinopharm get administered in the EU, but may not be recognized by all countries) and even worse they may still manage to made those digital certificates incompatible with the Pyra somehow !

Anyway, I guess @JDTAY, now that test may fail, you don't have to worry so much that your hospital separates COVID-positive and COVID-negative areas weakly, do you?

 

[Phlyra]

Lol, that was said by a big pharma salesman. (article's end)

Ireland suspends AstraZeneca Covid vaccine over blood clot concerns

Suspension follows similar move in Ireland due to reports in Norway of blood clots despite no proof of a link

www.theguardian.com

He also said that many vaccinated people have seen their lottery chances to win increased.

I just can't believe how much the believers can swallow...

An interesting perspective: https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...eally-happening-with-the-astrazeneca-vaccine/

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Do you have any scientific data about this?

Pr Perronne said so and I think that the guy is trustworthy not only by looking at his cv.

Also, would I have all the data in the world, I wouldn't be able to decypher it so I wouldn't post it :^) .

 

[JDTAY]

It's weird, usually my Azelastine makes me a little nauseous due to bad taste and smell, but today I can barely sense it.

I did have pizza just a few hours ago, and that still had taste, despite being delivered quite late. Hmm, maybe I'll go try a coffee, that usually has strong taste.

 

[JDTAY]

Small update: My coffee had flavor, but possibly not as much as usual? I certainly didn't gag on it like I sometimes do, even with an extra teaspoon in there.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

What about your poo ? :^)