boston pandora people hope you are safe

[mcobit]

Let's learn from israel... lets take the best land in the country, build huge walls around it and defend it with weapons from america...


Oh happy happy place...


I don't like terrorism, but there are always two sides of a coin.

 

[Kumaki]

No, learn from Isreal how to spot terrorists and prevent them from acting.

I did not say we should do EVERYTHING Isreal has done or has been percieved to have done.

Please do not twist my words out of context.

 

[ExquisiteCorpse]

Or the fact the USA has secret black site prisons in Romania, Lithuania and Poland. 

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter - jus' saying.

 

[ZXDunny]

You'll not convince her to change her mind, guys. She doesn't even know what she believes herself and has contradicted herself twice now in her definition of what a terrorist is and how to change them.

And no, McObit is right - neither of the two examples she gave are acts of terror

D.

 

[Monkfish]

I'm sorry Kumaki, you really had my sympathies due to your recent personal events on these boards, but i cant believe you're championing Israeli policy on how to combat "terrorism". The only thing you're going to learn from those guys is how to oppress Palestinians (with superior military force) and build on their land. Yes there have been Palestinian rocket attacks, but are they terrorists? No, they just want their country back.

They cant survive on the Gaza Strip, too many people living there and not enough space for them to live, they also don't have enough food coming in thanks to Israeli and Egyptian blockades. Israeli's have only been there for 65 years but their line is basically "we think that our god says this country belongs to us, so we'll take it from you" and thats exactly what they have done. If anyone is the terrorist in that conflict it's the Israelis themselves.

Also i'd like to point out that you cant act on people for being a "potential threat" as soon as you start doing that you actually breed conditions for terrorism because people begin to feel victimised - i'm sure you're aware thats not a nice feeling.

 

[ZXDunny]

Also i'd like to point out that you cant act on people for being a "potential threat" as soon as you start doing that you actually breed conditions for terrorism because people begin to feel victimised - i'm sure you're aware thats not a nice feeling.

And yet that's exactly what people who espouse the "ban violent video games" line are after, so I'm not surprised. These people want violent stimuli removed from society, not just because they feel safer, but because they pre-judge anyone who plays them as being violent themselves. As you say, this leads to victimisation and is a terrorist act in itself.
Not that these people are aware that's what they're doing, of course.

D.

 

[Binky]

"removing violent stimuli from society" could be seen as oppression, or it could be seen as keeping law and order, but it isn't terrorism.

Terrorism involves dramatic and unpredictable demonstrations of destructive power.

 

[darkborn]

No, learn from Isreal how to spot terrorists and prevent them from acting.

I did not say we should do EVERYTHING Isreal has done or has been percieved to have done.

Please do not twist my words out of context.

For how long do they "preventing" them? Decades?


IMHO there will be no Hezbollah today - and half of Al-Qaeda shite if Israel played different for years.

Hawks from Tel Aviv turned whole country in Orwell's 1984. It seems like USA is infected now also.

 

[ExquisiteCorpse]

Quite ironic they ended up being from Chechnya.

Seeing how America funded Chechnyan terrorists against Russia for decades and now the Americans have tasted the Chechnyan brand of evil.

 

[darkborn]

Quite ironic they ended up being from Chechnya.

Seeing how America funded Chechnyan terrorists against Russia for decades and now the Americans have tasted the Chechnyan brand of evil.

Not so much. America officaly trained Bin Laden for same purpose. America had good relations with Saddam for many years.


So... it is not so much surprising. Boomerang effect, as predictable.

 

[moxie]

One probably should not draw too much from that yet, though. The motives, as far as I've heard, haven't really been determined. The last news report I heard made it sound like it could just as likely be more of a school shooting kind of motive - I.e. being outside and feeling that they don't belong and don't understand (or are understood by) their environment. Ambitious students but socially a bit cut off, leading to alienation and youknow, the usual angry teenager outsider kind of thing. But we'll see, hopefully they'll catch the second brother alive and get some sort of reason out of him.

 

[darkborn]

One probably should not draw too much from that yet, though. The motives, as far as I've heard, haven't really been determined. The last news report I heard made it sound like it could just as likely be more of a school shooting kind of motive - I.e. being outside and feeling that they don't belong and don't understand (or are understood by) their environment. Ambitious students but socially a bit cut off, leading to alienation and youknow, the usual angry teenager outsider kind of thing. But we'll see, hopefully they'll catch the second brother alive and get some sort of reason out of him.

True, but whole paranoic, fear & violence behaviour that exaggerate at US should has some origin... I think it is now about 2 mass murders etc tragedies / month... When you see Bowling For Columbine even M. Moore could not predict it. Lucky them, Senate just refused to put weapons under control (again)... :-(

 

[Timstertoo]

Quite ironic they ended up being from Chechnya.

Seeing how America funded Chechnyan terrorists against Russia for decades and now the Americans have tasted the Chechnyan brand of evil.

Not so much. America officaly trained Bin Laden for same purpose. America had good relations with Saddam for many years.


So... it is not so much surprising. Boomerang effect, as predictable.

Let's not forget that the Vietcong was trained and armed by the OSS during WWII and then turned to Russia after the US ditched them once the war was over. 

http://www.historynet.com/ho-chi-minh-and-the-oss.htm

There is really not a lot we can do against attacks like these apart from trying to behave a bit better internationally. And we all know that is not going to happen. So buckle up, the best is yet to come.

Luckily I have a healthy dislike of public transport and I can't be arsed to stand in big crowds during major events as sooner or later something is bound to happen in Amsterdam too.

I wish I had a business that supplied doomsday preppers, anyone in that branch is making a killing right now. 

 

[darkborn]

I am not trolling, but I have to share something, please do not take it hard.

I feel sorry for innocent victims in Boston. There is not excuse for that.

However, there are circumstances that should explain erratic behavior of many things today that gone wrong.
Please, do not read if you are easily upset or easily offended.
I do not want to judge anyone, or argue publicly. It is not the place and time, so contact me privately if you have to.

Spoiler

America funded NGO in Ukraine, but they did not protected them from Russia aggression.
Right now, jailed Yulia Tymoshenko, ex Prime Minister, which is under hunger strike, is set to face murder charges in Ukraine from Pro-Russian government.

Similar thing is with Chechnyan rebels. They were funded and instructed for years, and then traded off. FSS (ex-KGB) is hunting them today all over the world.

And more. One way or another, here is the cause of this tragedy.

I do not want to write about Palestinian, Afghanistan etc problems. Those cases are still opened.
But here are some more "closed cases" that should warn us about future problems:

"Iraq: War's legacy of cancer"
"Two US-led wars in Iraq have left behind hundreds of tonnes of depleted uranium munitions and other toxic wastes."
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/03/2013315171951838638.html

"Iraq's real WMD crime"
"There are weapons of mass destruction all over Iraq and they were used this year. Iraqi children continue to find them every day."
http://www.aljazeera.com/archive/2003/10/2008410163515321636.html

"approximately 2,000 tonnes of DU may have been used in Iraq":
"Epidemic of birth defects in Iraq and our duty as public health researchers"
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/03/2013312175857532741.html

"Childhood leukemia rates in Basra more than doubled between 1993 and 2007"
"Trends in Childhood Leukemia in Basrah, Iraq, 1993–2007"
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2009.164236

Same thing is happening right now in Bosnia, Serbia, Kosovo and so on.
Depleted uranium has been seeding all over earth.

"Depleted Uranium Radiation resulting from NATO Bombings in Serbia : High Incidence of Cancer"
http://www.globalresearch.ca/depleted-uranium-radiation-resulting-from-nato-bombings-in-serbia-high-incidence-of-cancer/18432

"Depleted uranium 'threatens Balkan cancer epidemic'"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/408122.stm

So it happens that part of Serbian people celebrates Boston terrorist attacks:
(Serbia is not Middle or Far East, geografically it is part of Europe)

"The celebration for the bombing in Boston"
http://www.e-novine.com/srbija/srbija-tema/82563-Slavlje-zbog-bombakog-napada-Bostonu.html

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.e-novine.com%2Fsrbija%2Fsrbija-tema%2F82563-Slavlje-zbog-bombakog-napada-Bostonu.html&act=url

There are tenths of thousands, maybe millions in world today, that (I'll be polite) do not feel empathy for US citizens, as those Serbs.

I did not mention at least 10 more countries that suffered from Politics of US Foreign Affairs.
I think that Americans are not stupid and they do know what is going on out there where America is implementing Preventive Action policy.
Thousands of people are returning from suffering countries to America every year, as a soldiers or as a refugees... they _do_ know what is happening around.
So, we could conclude that fear and violence are globally interconnected, as we are all today.
Every single happening is connected today, so I do not think it is "isolated incident" that just happens... as I wrote before, It is happening almost twice every single month.

I feel sorry for Americans, for all victims suffering - and today most ordinary people are victims of this ill situation.
Please, just say no to violence. And have strength to forgive.

 

[Kumaki]

Darkborn, and others...most of us here in America do not support these actions and policies either.

BUT WE ARE ALSO FUCKING POWERLESS TO STOP THEM.

You think we have a fucking democracy here?  Puh-fucking-leeze!!  The wealthy and corporations control this country, and our leaders serve their agenda...not ours!

and yet WE are the ones who get victimized by these asswipes attacks.

And yes, they are terrorists and they are asswipes...and as long as they continue to target innocent persons...who have no ability to make or change the policies of our government...they will continue to be asswipes and terrorists.

Let them go after the sons of bitches who are ruining our country.  Why the hell should innocent poor victims like those in Boston...die...just because a couple of assholes don't like US Government policy?  Let them target the people who profit from those policies and actions.  Those policies and actions ten dto either hurt us, too...or, at the very least they do not HELP us...WE don't benefit from this crap!

I'm serious...it really PISSES ME OFF on International Forums...the way Americans are trashed because of the policies of our government - which we can't control or change...let me clue you in...most of US are against those policies, too!

You do not understand how politics works in America.

Those with an agenda...contribute huge piles of money to candidates re-election campaigns. (read the Supreme Court Decision recently on FEC versus Citizens United)

That money is used to run massive ad campaigns for that candidate, lying about their records...distorting the records of opponents...and most Americans are not educated enough...or care enough, to research it for themselves.  This is why negative attack ads work in politics.

This tends to get those politicians who will support the agenda of the biggest campaign donors...elected and re-elected.

In America...a politician's JOB NUMBER ONE is to get re-elected.  Not to do The People's business, not to represent The People...they could give a shit about We The People.  They care about one thing: getting re-elected.

And this is how America has become what it is today.

But that is our government.

PLEASE do not assume that we American citizens support the policy and agenda that is carried out in our names.

We're just basically powerless to stop it.

In 1934, General Smedley Butler was approached by business and industry leaders.  He was presented with a large suitcase full of cash.  This was only a downpayment.  These business leaders wanted General Butler to assemble an Army, overtake Washington, depose FDR, and install himself as the facsit dictator of the United States.

It would have worked, too, except that General Butler was a true patriot.  He refused, and exposed the plot.

Many have no idea how close America came, in 1934, to becoming a fascist nation.

Now, of course, the coup has been accomplished...and without blood.  We are now a fascist nation.  We operate for the benefit of buig business and screw everyone else.  That is basically fascism.

Fascism should NOT be confused with the Nazi Party.

Fascism, strictly defined...is a business-government cooperation.  The Holocaust and all that stuff, is not a part of fascism.

Any student of Political Science can tell you this - Amerrica is a fascist nation.

Below - are the major signs of a fascist nation.  Those which apply to the United States - I have bolded and italicized.  Those which at least partially apply...have been bolded only.

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:  

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.  

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc. (I point your attention to the PATRIOT ACT)  

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc...(I point here to the onging scapegoating of Muslims you hear all over right-wing radio and news networks)  

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.  

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.  

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common...(the media here tend to push the corporate/military-idustrial complex agenda)  

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.  

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.  

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.  

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.  

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.  

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations...(there is not, per se, a national police force here)  

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders...(I point here to the "too big to fail...too big to jail" banks that crashed our economy and raided our Treasury - causing massive hardship and deprivation for the rest of us.)  

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections...(Bush 2000, anyone?  Contant negative attack ads and unlimited corporate cash in elections, anyone?  Voter ID laws, anyone?  Gerrymandering, anyone?)

 

[NearTao]

Can this be moved to Off Topic? I fail to see how what this thread has become is meaningful in any positive way.

 

[Kumaki]

I suppose it could be.

But I have to defend my fellow Americans from the unfair view the rest of the world seems to have of us...as a result of the actions of our government.

 

[2bit]

Darkborn, and others...most of us here in America do not support these actions and policies either.

BUT WE ARE ALSO FUCKING POWERLESS TO STOP THEM.

You think we have a fucking democracy here?  Puh-fucking-leeze!!  The wealthy and corporations control this country, and our leaders serve their agenda...not ours!

and yet WE are the ones who get victimized by these asswipes attacks.

And yes, they are terrorists and they are asswipes...and as long as they continue to target innocent persons...who have no ability to make or change the policies of our government...they will continue to be asswipes and terrorists.

Let them go after the sons of bitches who are ruining our country.  Why the hell should innocent poor victims like those in Boston...die...just because a couple of assholes don't like US Government policy?  Let them target the people who profit from those policies and actions.  Those policies and actions ten dto either hurt us, too...or, at the very least they do not HELP us...WE don't benefit from this crap!

I'm serious...it really PISSES ME OFF on International Forums...the way Americans are trashed because of the policies of our government - which we can't control or change...let me clue you in...most of US are against those policies, too!

You do not understand how politics works in America.

Those with an agenda...contribute huge piles of money to candidates re-election campaigns. (read the Supreme Court Decision recently on FEC versus Citizens United)

That money is used to run massive ad campaigns for that candidate, lying about their records...distorting the records of opponents...and most Americans are not educated enough...or care enough, to research it for themselves.  This is why negative attack ads work in politics.

This tends to get those politicians who will support the agenda of the biggest campaign donors...elected and re-elected.

In America...a politician's JOB NUMBER ONE is to get re-elected.  Not to do The People's business, not to represent The People...they could give a shit about We The People.  They care about one thing: getting re-elected.

And this is how America has become what it is today.

But that is our government.

PLEASE do not assume that we American citizens support the policy and agenda that is carried out in our names.

We're just basically powerless to stop it.

In 1934, General Smedley Butler was approached by business and industry leaders.  He was presented with a large suitcase full of cash.  This was only a downpayment.  These business leaders wanted General Butler to assemble an Army, overtake Washington, depose FDR, and install himself as the facsit dictator of the United States.

It would have worked, too, except that General Butler was a true patriot.  He refused, and exposed the plot.

Many have no idea how close America came, in 1934, to becoming a fascist nation.

Now, of course, the coup has been accomplished...and without blood.  We are now a fascist nation.  We operate for the benefit of buig business and screw everyone else.  That is basically fascism.

Fascism should NOT be confused with the Nazi Party.

Fascism, strictly defined...is a business-government cooperation.  The Holocaust and all that stuff, is not a part of fascism.

Any student of Political Science can tell you this - Amerrica is a fascist nation.

Below - are the major signs of a fascist nation.  Those which apply to the United States - I have bolded and italicized.  Those which at least partially apply...have been bolded only.

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:  

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc. (I point your attention to the PATRIOT ACT)

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc...(I point here to the onging scapegoating of Muslims you hear all over right-wing radio and news networks)

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.  

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common...(the media here tend to push the corporate/military-idustrial complex agenda)

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations...(there is not, per se, a national police force here)  

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders...(I point here to the "too big to fail...too big to jail" banks that crashed our economy and raided our Treasury - causing massive hardship and deprivation for the rest of us.)

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections...(Bush 2000, anyone?  Contant negative attack ads and unlimited corporate cash in elections, anyone?  Voter ID laws, anyone?  Gerrymandering, anyone?)

You have some good points here , but we are not  a fascist nation - not yet any how . What we are is a nation in divide : liberals ( and I mean on the extreme end , not the guy who wears scarves and hangs out in coffee shops ) and right wingists ( shut up or I will brain you with my bible ! types ) , then there are those like me : IT IS YOUR RIGHT ( provided you take a safety course , are not a substance abuser , mentally disabled or unstable , or criminal ) to own assault rifles and as many drum clips as you want , BUT morrow pacific must be stopped .

 

[rohezal]

Let them go after the sons of bitches who are ruining our country.  Why the hell should innocent poor victims like those in Boston...die...just because a couple of assholes don't like US Government policy?  Let them target the people who profit from those policies and actions.  Those policies and actions ten dto either hurt us, too...or, at the very least they do not HELP us...WE don't benefit from this crap!

True, but I think it is more easy to target a big event which is stretched over several miles with millions of people running around, then a high security building. I think the difference the between "terrorists" and "soldiers" are the weapons. The US Air Force can bomb gaddafis palace and has good rockets, which avoid to much innocent people dieing (except the use sometimes uran as metall to breack through steel concrete, which can cause cancer but the people living in this area, by becoming dust or getting into the ground water). The religious militants who attacked the white house (9/11) did not have fighter jets, so they took what they can get, to target the enemie military leader.

But there is a difference between striking military targets or targets of military use (on of the biggest bank is a target of military use if your enemies economy relies on it), but Boston was just a war crime or a rampage. I am curious to read about the background of the mass killing. Hope the injured get well soon.

 

[Kumaki]

Well, at least they caught the second doofus now.

Maybe we will learn what motivated this.

Then we can let him join his brother.  He doesn't deserve to live.