And now for something completely different (Keyboard Option)

[WizardStan]

1. No, space doesnt have to be a bar key

I remember him saying this as well.

2. Ideally the most central

But I don't remember him saying this. As far as I'm aware he still wanted it close to the same position as on the Pandora but would love to hear otherwise.

3. 8x8 matrix according to the TI spec

A custom matrix is easy enough to do, just as it was on the Pandora, provided there's enough GPIOs, and I'm sure gta04 has long since figured it out. I can't conceive of any actual constraints on the positioning of the space bar, but I think the only person who can accurately answer this is gta04 himself.

 

[comradekingu]

It is actually 9x9, so 81 keys in total.

 

[Grench]

As ED recently stated he would be looking at keyboard layouts over the next month, I thought that was a good time to do some dusting-off on this idea.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/995ace0e060c7909381e92736bffe149

This should fix the majority of the 'key priority' notes as well as creating more usable pairings for programming.

 

[Grench]

For diacritics on the above, I have a few ideas.

1.  Use the fn+↵ = Comp = compose method.

2.  Looking at this:   "[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]In the absence of a default dead key, even a normal printing key can temporarily be altered to function as a dead key by simultaneously holding down another modifier key (typically [/SIZE]AltGr[SIZE=14.399999618530273px] or[/SIZE]Option[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]). In [/SIZE]Microsoft Word[SIZE=14.399999618530273px], using the [/SIZE]Control key[SIZE=14.399999618530273px] with a key that usually resembles the diacritic (e.g. [/SIZE]^[SIZE=14.399999618530273px] for a [/SIZE]circumflex[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]) acts as a dead key.[/SIZE]"  

On this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_key

I had the idea that a similar method could be used.  

Ctrl+~ then a, o, n would result in ã, õ, ñ.

Ctrl+' then a, e, i, o, u would result in á, é, í, ó, ú.

Ctrl+` then a, e, i, o, u, would result in à, è, ì, ò, ù.

Ctrl+^ then a, e, i, o, u, would result in â, ê, î, ô, û.

Ctrl+: then a, e, i, o, u, y would result in ä, ë, ï, ö, ü, ÿ.

At first glance, getting to Ctrl+` then i to get  ì might seem a bit daunting.  However, I think it could be 'gotten used to' pretty quickly.

1.  Mash/chord Ctrl+Fn+Shift with the right thumb.

2.  Press the ` key with the left thumb then let go both thumbs.

3.  Press the i key with the right thumb.

There are 2 Fn+key and 2 Fn+shift+key positions  that I had left blank on the above layout.  They could be filled in with the most common diacritics that are not currently accessible on the keyboard.  For example, a real umlaut ¨ could be added to Fn+shift+H like this:  http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5ea17ef9c2feae07f9da843344c340e6

I would need feedback from the other community members as to which markings/symbols wold be the most critical to add.

However, with the inherent speed of this thumb keyboard's mashable corners, getting to even shift+fn+ctrl+key then base key should be pretty quick for diacritic selections.

 

[Grench]

This last weekend I lost 10 hours to one of my favorite negative time generators, the old DOS game Master of Magic.  I was playing under DOSBox on the Pandora.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Magic

Something that came to mind - I was able to play 80% of this game just using my red stylus (other thread) but had to re-position my hands and use the right nub for one purpose - right mouse clicks.

So, I had this idea.  A keyboard modifier key (or set) to allow the stylus to right-click.  Samsung does this on their Note series by having an active stylus with a button on it to give an alternate-input.

Shift, Fn, Alt, Ctrl all have meaning either individually or combined with left mouse clicks.

In this scenario, using the stylus, the alternate hand needs to be supporting the screen.  So, right handed people will have the left shoulder buttons available during use.  Conversely lefties will have the right buttons.

So, what I propose is that for improved stylus use (getting both left & right clicks available), to use the 2nd set of shoulder buttons as stylus modifiers.  While one of them is pressed, it 'shifts' the next stylus input on screen to a 'right click'.

Like this:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4562af9f8d20cc476f635615e09965bc

 

[rygD]

Sorry for being off topic.  I think some people said they use the right nub for mouse movement and the left nub for clicking.  This may help you when you play games for now.  I still need to move the mouse to right nub and see how I like it, but I keep forgetting.

 

[Grench]

Sorry for being off topic.  I think some people said they use the right nub for mouse movement and the left nub for clicking.  This may help you when you play games for now.  I still need to move the mouse to right nub and see how I like it, but I keep forgetting.

What I need is for the stylus to be able to both left click and right click.  To me that means a keyboard modifier.  Flipping the nub-mouse controls won't help so much because then I still need to locate the pointer with the nub-mouse (using the stylus to move the mouse results in an unwanted left mouse click) then 'right click' with the other nub.

I wonder if there is a way to assign the left shoulder button on the Pandora to "stylus mouse shift" so that when held and touching the screen with the stylus it results in a right mouse click...

Hmm...

 

[bzar]

Grench, you could use my inputty-thingy to make a doodad that generates right-clicks using a combination of keyboard and touch screen events

Sadly it would require a Qt5 port to work on pandora.

 

[Grench]

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4562af9f8d20cc476f635615e09965bc

So it sounds like we're coming down to decision time on keyboard layout methodologies.  Mine is admittedly quite different.  However, I think that if you give it some serious thought, you'll find that it is very usable and should be very fast for input and extremely handy for games.

By having two Fn, Ctrl, Shift and Alt keys - and the ability to lock them by hitting both sides of each key at the same time - it allows the keyboard to shift modes on the fly depending on what the end user needs.

FPS games rely quite a bit on the number keys (weapon select) and function keys (talk) or similar.  Most layouts do not allow these to both be accessible in a 'locked' form.  In this layout you can push both Fn keys at the start of the game and have BOTH the numeric keypad AND the Fn keypad just a single thumb-click away for the entire game.  Need a letter or two during that?  Push either Fn key with one thumb - sending the keyboard back to letters just like shifting a shift-locked keyboard goes back to lowercase - and press the letter key with the other thumb.  By being able to mode-shift the keyboard, it should make a lot of FPS and MORPG's more playable.

Something I've been having troubles deciding is within the four mode changing keys (Fn, Shift, Alt, Ctrl), which key belongs in which space for more comfortable 'chording'.  Because the mode change keys are in the corner they are usable through 'chording'.  The idea is that you can cover/press more than one of them at the same time with one thumb (right Fn + Shift) and touch another key with the other thumb (F10) to yield what would otherwise be a complex operation to get to shift+F10.

By having these modifiers all on the keyboard it frees up the shoulder buttons for mouse, multimedia and other tasks.

You'll notice that there is a lot of bracket symbol pairing going on.  { is right next to and at the same shift-level as }.  ( and ) and [ and ] and / and \.  The idea with this is to make programming and command line operations faster.  ' and . and ~ are all available at a top level. @ is easy to find (for email).

The number pad is arranged PC style - benefits gaming.  However, since the Pyra is also a phone, having a workable numeric keypad should be a good thing.

Please give this keyboard layout some special thought and time - and think about how you use the Pandora, what you'll use the Pyra for and how this layout will work with you to make input more efficient.

Thank you,

Grench

 

[Grench]

Always chasing a bit more refinement.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6c9d72c0045002506e532daaa5f2f7b4

Updates include:

Added PrtSc, SysRq, Break on the shifted center key set.

Removed nub-clicks since the current nubs in consideration don't have that capability.

Made nubs normal/fine (left) and coarse/fast (right).

Made Fn-nubs map as Joystick 1 and Joystick 2, though I'm not 100% convinced this is ideal.  In FPS games that allow mapping joysticks it would be fantastic.  Would also be cool in racing and flight games/simulators.  Will need more thought/debate.

Thank you,

Grench

 

[WizardStan]

Removed nub-clicks since the current nubs in consideration don't have that capability

Do they not? Last I heard they still did.

 

[TrashyMG]

Removed nub-clicks since the current nubs in consideration don't have that capability

Do they not? Last I heard they still did.

Last I knew they did, but only when centered.

 

[Grench]

Removed nub-clicks since the current nubs in consideration don't have that capability

Do they not? Last I heard they still did.

Last I knew they did, but only when centered.

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17133-its-the-end-of-the-nubs-as-we-know-them/?p=359297/URL]

Are they not still going after solution #3?

"Solution 3 is currently my favorized solution.

We still got multiple nub samples for testing (the ones that Fatih sourced for us last year).


My favorite one is the one that the 3ds uses. That's the one we're testing now.


The travel distance is even a bit more, but it doesn't have a stick click.


We KNOW it's reliable and well-tested though.

It's approximately the same size, so no huge redesign needed."

If not, adding the mouse-click functionality back to the nubs is relatively painless.  It would work fine in desktop apps, but could be a bit annoying in mouse games - but that's why I have them mapped on the shoulders.

 

[TrashyMG]

^ Not from the sounds of December 14th post:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17476-the-pyra-puzzle//URL]

 

[Grench]

^ Not from the sounds of December 14th post:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17476-the-pyra-puzzle//URL]

OK - now I'm confused.  It doesn't say in that post if it's the clickable nubs they ordered or the non-clickable ones they were pursuing from the previous post.  Hope it's the clickable ones.  If so, I can modify the layout back to take advantage of them.  Still, it sounds like they cannot be clicked and moved at the same time.  That works for desktop, but would fail in FPS games.  Left nub aim, right nub strafe, left mouse click fire (on the right nub) - and loose strafing - unless you overmap the shoulder button to fire - in which case on other layouts you'll loose easy access to many of the keys - which depending on game could sacrifice weap selection and/or in-game communications.

Yes, I plan to use the Pyra for non-gaming tasks too.  But the controls should be spot on for far more complex games than the Pandora could handle.

 

[TrashyMG]

^ Yeah confusing, ED will need to comment for sure, but he mentions the Larger and smaller nubs makes it seem that he's going with the original end of life nubs, but ordered enough to get through ~5000 Pyra orders.

 

[Grench]

^ Yeah confusing, ED will need to comment for sure, but he mentions the Larger and smaller nubs makes it seem that he's going with the original end of life nubs, but ordered enough to get through ~5000 Pyra orders.

We're still pending any comment from ED on if the double space bar can be centered or if it can be made into two single keys.  Half the layouts could simply be moot.  It's fun to argue them through though.

 

[comradekingu]

The double space can be made into two keys. http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16736-testing-alternative-layouts-that-require-single-width-space-intl-layout-vs-big-space-and-other-key-layout-decisions/#entry348154 

EDs preference is a space bar-key  http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17612-will-pyra-have-a-double-sized-space-bar/#entry370370

As seen in question 1 in the poll: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16868-the-big-pyra-keyboard-poll/URL]

The reason most keyboard layouts dont feature this is they are made by someone who needs to consider all compromises to deliver something whole. Also it seems a lot of people havent considered how space translates from 10-finger to two thumbs.

You can do exactly what you want until the end result makes sense.

Edit:

About modifiers: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16736-testing-alternative-layouts-that-require-single-width-space-intl-layout-vs-big-space-and-other-key-layout-decisions/page-4#entry349028

About max amount of prints:  http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16736-testing-alternative-layouts-that-require-single-width-space-intl-layout-vs-big-space-and-other-key-layout-decisions/page-4#entry349019

So with 3 modifiers, you are down to zero viable layouts.

Keeping hardware keys seperate, and as little custom stuff on the meta-meta side of things is as good as it gets.

Not going over 3 prints per key is very much important for general visibility and overview.

And it is in tune with http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16736-testing-alternative-layouts-that-require-single-width-space-intl-layout-vs-big-space-and-other-key-layout-decisions/page-5#entry349129

 

[Grench]

I only have one (two of the same?) 'Modifier key' by ED's description.  Alt, Ctrl and Shift don't count as they are on a 'standard' keyboard.

I only have 2 'prints' per key as there are only 2 colors per key - i.e. a 2 pass printing process.  Yes, I have unshifted and shifted versions printed on the keys for both 'normal' and 'Meta/Fn/Pyra/Phred' (modifier key switched).

The 'not going over 3 prints' is hogwash/nonsense anyway.  It's like the MS Windows philosophy of hiding all of the administrative functions to prevent users from changing them.  This, for example, is completely understandable and FAR more complex layout than any of the ones we've been discussing.  it has 3 real modifier keys and 5 functions per key.

http://commerce.hpcalc.org/images/34s-angle-medium.jpg

Since it's color keyed it's pretty simple for the human brain to say, I'm looking for the Green keys since I just pushed the Green button.

The reality is that this tiny restricted keyboard will need to be busy.  It has a lot to do.  It needs to be designed from the ground up with thumb typing in mind.  It needs -fast- access to any key that would be easy/fast to access on a standard keyboard.  It needs to be able to still access those keys when the shoulders are mapped and in use by games.  

This is they only layout proposed to date that is truly designed for thumbs, gaming and speed.

 

[Grench]

Since ED's latest pictures of the plastics definitely place the space bar on the right AND there was significant push for having the modifier keys (shift, ctrl, alt, Fn) on the shoulder buttons, I started work on a modified version keeping a few of the important concepts.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/60334f21fce82d5d46ecd035b240d0d4

But then I realized - what am I going to do with the 4 left over keys?  Should they have German symbols?  Should I leave them intentionally blank for the end user to map to 'whatever they want'?

Did anyone catch the Stargate homage in the layout?