And now for something completely different (Keyboard Option)

[Granitehead]

You can't just dismiss Cedille like that, although to be honest I don't remember right now where it is on my keyboard (I'm sure it's there somewhere, it's a Swiss keyboard after all) - ah, there. ç. So, You can't just dismiss ç like that, it's used in French. I guarantee there will be /lots/ of people using it.

Otherwise: I would expect it to be quite easy to hit the three modifiers in the corner at the same time, but probably the location three in from the sides only works well with the key two in from the sides and maybe also all three of them from the side to the key three in.

 

[Grench]

Alt-number is not a linux thing, to my knowledge that only works on windows.

And you talk about ASCII as if it was some sort of standard. Anything above 127 is not a standard per se. It's 17 different standards. Even more if you count the non-ISO8859 ones.

Alt-number is a PC DOS thing actually.  It worked fine on PC DOS and Word Perfect 4.2 (For DOS).  I used to do Spanish papers that way.

ASCII is far more standard than the alternatives.  Or would you prefer EBCDIC?

 

[slaeshjag]

Unicode. That's the standard.

 

[Grench]

You can't just dismiss Cedille like that, although to be honest I don't remember right now where it is on my keyboard (I'm sure it's there somewhere, it's a Swiss keyboard after all) - ah, there. ç. So, You can't just dismiss ç like that, it's used in French. I guarantee there will be /lots/ of people using it.


Otherwise: I would expect it to be quite easy to hit the three modifiers in the corner at the same time, but probably the location three in from the sides only works well with the key two in from the sides and maybe also all three of them from the side to the key three in.

French?  Meh.

OK, just kidding.  However, I'm obviously no expert on how non-English keyboards work.

From what little research I've done, the Unix/Linux way of dealing with this is by using the Compose key. Alt+numbers is an old DOS trick - that works pretty well still.  Apparently the AltGr is 'old school' and out of fashion.

That's why I'd like to know if it would work for them to use shift+Fn+Enter or Fn+shift+Enter to select compose.  It's easy to get to yet 'offroad' enough that it's unlikely to trip up people when not expecting it.  Shift+Enter, Alt+Enter, Ctrl+Enter should all still be available.  Regular Fn+enter would still be a 'normal enter' to support the keypad.

Would the Compose key as proposed work?

 

[Grench]

Unicode. That's the standard.

ASCII stands for "American Standard Code for Information Interchange".

Unicode is an upstart self-proclaimed quasi-standard by comparison.

Old, but still valid look at character encoding:

http://www.cs.umd.edu/class/sum2003/cmsc311/Notes/Data/ascii.html

Although Unicode is supported well in Java, most other languages actually have some difficulty with it (and other double byte character sets DBCS).

I understand the usefulness of Unicode, but it will always be a 2nd fiddle extension to ASCII.  Doubling the data size of every data file is a quick and simple reason not to use  or to only sparingly use Unicode.

 

[levi]

Shift and ctrl on shoulder buttons was, kind of a cool exit for the fact that the Pandora had too few buttons. We don't have that issue on the Pyra and can have a much more effective - and much more gamer centric layout. The Pandora had two shift and two ctrl buttons too.

I have to disagree with that. My fingers are always on left and right trigger, thus they are super-easy to press. Moving both my thumbs at the same time, even though the right one goes to the same place every time I need to press Fn always strikes me as more complex.

Mind you, the worst thing is hitting symbols via shift. I always assume symbols are on Fn, so when they aren't it causes me to double take momentarily, and to shift my grip. I suppose your solution of having all the modifiers on the keyboard means I need a two thumb grip almost all the time though, so that might be better (as others have all the modifier on a shoulder fix the grip problem in their own way).


Anyway, I appreciate the use of shoulder for FPSes, but haven't all FPSes on Pandora mapped the shoulder to mouse buttons anyway? I agree that having the mouse buttons on the right nub is a bit of a 'huh?' moment, but I think having them on nub clicks should be a lot better anyway.


Oh, and since I'm moaning, I'd really like a dedicated Tab key, as I often mis-hit the two-key Pandora tab when tab completing in bash to this day. And pressing it repeatedly as sometimes required in that context is especially dangerous.

 

[slaeshjag]

Unicode is 32 bits per character. UTF-8 is the most common way of encoding unicode in a multi-byte fasion, that only uses as many bytes as a character needs, but does so in a sane manner that doesn't break compatibility of obsolete software that assumes 8 bits per char. UTF-16/32 is rarely seen outside internal implementations of programs.

Unicode/UTF-8 it is THE WAY TO DO IT. You know why? Because we no longer live in a disconnected world where a computer only have to handle just one language. Seriously. The only parts of the world that still really tries to resist it is the parts of the world where ASCII is all they need. This whole character encoding "war" that raged during the last decade is over. Plain ASCII/other specialized encodings are more or less dead now.

 

[_wb_]

Sorry if I sounded condescending, Grench. I just meant to give some constructive feedback.

Obviously we don't have enough keys to give everything a dedicated key. Still, the more useful dedicated keys that can be squeezed in, the better. I think it's a bad idea to just not use the shoulder buttons for keyboard input and waste 8 perfectly fine keyboard keys on modifiers. I also think there are more important symbols than $, ~ and ! to put on a dedicated primary key.

* * * 

Shift-Tab does what Tab does, but in the opposite direction. That's why the symbol for the Tab key is ↹ : it goes to the right or to the next thing when you press it (the bottom arrow), it goes to the left or to the previous thing when you do Shift-Tab.

Try moving the cursor between input fields using Tab and Shift-Tab.

Try switching windows using Alt-Tab (next window) and Shift-Alt-Tab (previous window).

Try any word processor, make a bullet list, and use Tab and Shift-Tab to make bullets nest deeper or less deep.

Some editors allow you to indent selected text using Tab and Shift-Tab.

Shift-Tab is a thing. Tab as Shift-Space is not acceptable.

* * *

Two 'free' Fn keys for international symbols is not enough. The two extra with Shift don't count because you need uppercase letters too.

Key remapping and dead diacritics are the only efficient way to enter most international symbols reasonably easy. Compose works, but it's too clumsy.

In my native language (Dutch), I don't need a lot of diacritics but I do need the occasional acute+[any vowel], umlaut+[any vowel], and every now and then a grave, circumflex or cedille. It is nice if those can be done in just two thumb presses in two actions instead of five thumb presses in three actions.

* * *

Look it up please. ASCII is a 7 bit standard. It is a table of 2^7=128 symbols. It does not include any accented letter. It is impossible to encode most European languages in plain ASCII. Even some English words cannot be encoded in it, e.g. words like "résumé", "Encyclopædia Brittanica" or "naïve" cannot be spelled correctly in ASCII.

You are talking about extensions of ASCII, in particular,

legacy 8 bit extensions of ASCII.

Nowadays, the most popular, best supported and most complete extension of ASCII is... Unicode.

 

[levi]

Isn't any dead key on the proposed keyboards going to need three thumbs in two actions (for a lower case accented letter, assuming caps is off), given we're unlikely to have space for dedicated dead keys, so you're at least going to need a modifier. Sure, you could remap to get those dead keys, but we're talking about the standard keyboard layout here. If you're remapping, all bets are off.


I can see how three keys in two actions is still better than five in three, but if you can fit in a dedicated compose key it's only four in three. I'd be tempted to argue it's an easier system for English-speakers to use when writing letters from foreign alphabets, probably because it's the only way you can short of Alt+num on Windows for us Englshers to type them on a US or UK keyboard without dead keys. But I suppose we aren't the target audience for such a system, and I can't really speak for other nationalities.

 

[_wb_]

I don't count shoulder button presses as thumb presses, since you use your index finger for them. In my layout, the following symbols are one thumb press: ' ` " , . < > = - ~ / (some of them need Pyra or Shift, but since those are on a shoulder button, that does not make your thumbs travel). If you add Pyra or Shift to one of those symbols, you get the corresponding dead diacritic instead of the symbol: acute, grave, umlaut, cedilla, dot, caron, circumflex, double acute, macron, tilde, stroke.

This means I consciously don't put additional Pyra or Shift-Pyra symbols on those keys, to reserve those for dead diacritics (not explicitly labeled as such, but available by default).

So with that scheme, all standard diacritics are available with just two thumb presses (plus one or two shoulder button modifiers).

 

[levi]

Hmm, that's true, but as this is Grench's thread, I was thinking in terms of his layout, where the modifiers are all thumb presses.


Personally I agree that the shoulders should be modifiers to simplify accesses like this, but I'm trying to treat that as a separate issue I have with Grench's layout. To isolate out the issue of the location of modifiers, I'm considering them to be potentially of the same significance as a button press, as even if they're on the shoulders that doesn't make them completely free.

 

[Grench]

OK.  Taking the above into account with shift-tab being a real thing:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/f83ca1d4243ccc265b4d4304cb5a7081

Space is space

Shift space is Underscore

Tab is now Fn+Space

Shift+tab is now Fn+shift+space

Compose is still on the Fn+shift+Enter combination unless someone can tell me why it should not be.

Which would be better?  Having Fn+shift+Enter be 'compose' or be the dead key for diacritics? (Simultaneous dual thumb press = 1 [Or call it 1.5 since one happens a fraction of a second before the other?] action.)

Your shoulder button presses count just as much as my off-thumb presses do.  You can't claim efficiency just because the 2nd digit being used is a finger instead of a thumb in this case.  _wb_, by your rules of modifier+key = 'one thumb press', EVERY symbol on my keyboard is a 'one thumb press'.  The modifier is simply done with the other thumb rather than a finger.

Your keyboard is designed for fingers and one thumb or the other for each symbol.  Mine is designed for both thumbs for each symbol.  You keep trying to emphasize this 'thumb press count' model of efficiency, but it's a false model.  It's just as fast or faster than your use of the shoulder buttons.  You're just more used to the shoulder buttons.

Speaking of which, if someone is hell bent on doing so, there is nothing in my layout that prevents someone from re-mapping the shoulder buttons to duplicate the modifier keys.  Wholly unnecessary to do so - but it could be done with minimal impact to function  - after all, how often does someone use mouse 3 and mouse 4?

 

[levi]

Wait, so you're saying that two of the functions mapped to your shoulder buttons are close to useless. Yet this is the layout you propose ED ships with new Pyras?

 

[Tenka]

I only like the positions of the F keys and number keys, now that I've completely absorbed this.  Yeah, not assigning modifier keys to all of the shoulder buttons is bad enough to be impossible.

 

[rygD]

Compose is still on the Fn+shift+Enter combination unless someone can tell me why it should not be.

I can offer some alternatives.  Would it be a problem to place it on Pause?  Is Pause to difficult for people to reach?

Speaking of which, if someone is hell bent on doing so, there is nothing in my layout that prevents someone from re-mapping the shoulder buttons to duplicate the modifier keys.  Wholly unnecessary to do so - but it could be done with minimal impact to function  - after all, how often does someone use mouse 3 and mouse 4?

Or you can throw it on one of those.

I know most think desk typing with a handheld device is stupid, but I think this layout should work well for it, at least for English.  Taking that a step further, I think it might also work well enough for one handed typing.  I would have a reason to test the unnecessary, but always interesting, forearm mounting of a computer. 

 

[Grench]

Wait, so you're saying that two of the functions mapped to your shoulder buttons are close to useless. Yet this is the layout you propose ED ships with new Pyras?

Nope.  They're VERY useful - they can be instantly mapped into any game that uses a mouse built after 1998 (more than 2 buttons).

I only like the positions of the F keys and number keys, now that I've completely absorbed this.  Yeah, not assigning modifier keys to all of the shoulder buttons is bad enough to be impossible.

Nope - not at all.  The shoulder buttons should be mouse buttons by all rights.  I suspect that they would have been if the Pandora had enough keys to actually work for typing.  To my understanding, which could be wrong, the shoulder buttons got hijacked from mouse use for shift and ctrl after it was found out that the main keyboard couldn't hold enough key press combinations for some applications.  As it was, binary mouse clicks on an analog nub was a bit more than cumbersome to learn - and I still don't use the shoulder buttons for shift or ctrl.  The keyboard should run the keyboard.  Shoulder triggers are part of the game controls & navigation/mouse collection.


Modifiers on the keyboard is how a keyboard -should- operate.  It's clear, concise, easy to chord modifiers and -fast-.

Compose is still on the Fn+shift+Enter combination unless someone can tell me why it should not be.

I can offer some alternatives.  Would it be a problem to place it on Pause?  Is Pause to difficult for people to reach?

Hmm..  I had put Pause there simply because I didn't have anything else logical to put into that set after nixing the 'Pyra' key and alt,ctrl from that 'game control' set.  It is hard to reach though as the user would need to shift their grip a bit to reach the upper center (between the nubs and up) keys.  I'm not opposed to moving compose there though and just chucking 'pause' since has little real meaning.

Consider this though - where it is at, shift+Fn+Enter is FASTER to get to than the top key where Pause is.  No adjusting had position, shifft+Fn are chorded with one thumb while the other hits 'Enter'.  Adjusting hands to reach over the nubs to the center game control set is -harder-.  Not hard enough to be a huge issue though.

Speaking of which, if someone is hell bent on doing so, there is nothing in my layout that prevents someone from re-mapping the shoulder buttons to duplicate the modifier keys.  Wholly unnecessary to do so - but it could be done with minimal impact to function  - after all, how often does someone use mouse 3 and mouse 4?

Or you can throw it on one of those.

No - those really do make much more sense as mouse 1-4 OR joy 1-4 than they ever did for any form of typing function.

I know most think desk typing with a handheld device is stupid, but I think this layout should work well for it, at least for English.  Taking that a step further, I think it might also work well enough for one handed typing.  I would have a reason to test the unnecessary, but always interesting, forearm mounting of a computer.

The idea is to make it intuitive and very very fast. Every symbol is available either straight up OR with a single dual thumb press (one or two modifier keys covered) and the key.


The fact that all 4 modifiers (shift, Fn, Ctrl, Alt) have lock functions (push both of any pair to lock) may seem a bit odd at first, but slow down and consider the implications for more modern PC games and it makes more sense. Now I'm wishing that my normal PC keyboard worked this way - it would be insanely handy. The caps-lock key shouldn't exist. That should be shift+shift = caps lock. Ctrl+ctrl should lock ctrl, etc... It's intuitive and feels 'right'.


It's also so different that it's going to be an uphill slog through flames and flying muck to get it honest consideration. I wish there were a cost effective way to truly test it on a Pyra with games.

Now, you mention 1 handed typing.  Yes - it would work fantastic for that regardless of which hand is dominant.

Imagine a Pyra strapped to your left arm.  The right hand's thumb can chord all of the modifier keys in the bottom left corner and the other 4 fingers can do just the button presses.  Move it to your right arm - it works the exact same way only mirrored for the left hand/thumb.  

In fact, this ability to be efficiently used one handed is a huge plus for this layout.  Thinking about it - I could even see becoming a semi-competent one handed touch typist on it.  It could be sitting on the desk or dock and controlled with a single hand without having to 'reach around' to grab a shoulder button.

Going a step beyond...  A Pyra with the screen removed in your shirt breast pocket, heads up display in your sunglasses or a helmet display.  Secret Cyborg fantasies anyone?

Makes me wish there were something like this with a 1080p resolution:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0080UVHJU

 

[Kiga]

The idea is to make it intuitive and very very fast. Every symbol is available either straight up OR with a single dual thumb press (one or two modifier keys covered) and the key.

The fact that all 4 modifiers (shift, Fn, Ctrl, Alt) have lock functions (push both of any pair to lock) may seem a bit odd at first, but slow down and consider the implications for more modern PC games and it makes more sense. Now I'm wishing that my normal PC keyboard worked this way - it would be insanely handy. The caps-lock key shouldn't exist. That should be shift+shift = caps lock. Ctrl+ctrl should lock ctrl, etc... It's intuitive and feels 'right'.

Or you can push one key to lock shift on your pc... why would you want to lock Ctrl?

What I would whish on a normal PC is to have two spare finger which can hit any modifier keys whenever I want... just like with modifier on shoulders.

To me it's obvious that modifier keys should be shoulder keys simply because you can press them having your thumbs free...  hitting the right modifier quicly looks a lot harder when they are at the ends, you can't acces to the ends easily when you are holding your Pyra and typing.

Mouse click as shoulder button makes no sense because you can't use them properly while using the touchscreen and if you use the nub, it's much easier and like a real mouse to use action buttons as mouse click particulary while you are moving the nub. Because to be quick and accurate you have to hold your Pyra strongly so you can't be as accurate using at the same time shoulders button.

Imagine a Pyra strapped to your left arm.  The right hand's thumb can chord all of the modifier keys in the bottom left corner and the other 4 fingers can do just the button presses.  Move it to your right arm - it works the exact same way only mirrored for the left hand/thumb.

How would you strap it  to not tiring the left arm? The only possiblity I can see would be some big stuff attached on all your arm. Even with that it would be pretty hard and tiring to type watching your screen.

THIS is the solution I may will adopt for theses needs and I think it can suit you too.

Btw my versions of this layout:

Space bar at right: http://www.keyboard-...0421fe38934a5f9

Space bar at left and a full numpad: http://www.keyboard-...2892a57985bd525

 

[rygD]

The caps-lock key shouldn't exist.

I FULLY agree with this (all caps in this sentence were brought to you by SHIFT)!

That should be shift+shift = caps lock. Ctrl+ctrl should lock ctrl, etc... It's intuitive and feels 'right'.

It's also so different that it's going to be an uphill slog through flames and flying muck to get it honest consideration.

I am pretty sure caps lock isn't the only bad thing on keyboards that we have because people didn't want a big, weird change.  I think the QWERTY layout is another.

In fact, this ability to be efficiently used one handed is a huge plus for this layout.  Thinking about it - I could even see becoming a semi-competent one handed touch typist on it.

 Stop right there.  Nobody bigger than a Keebler elf can touch type on these.  It's a 5" wide thumb keyboard.

    Seriously, though, that would be pretty cool.  Before buying my buckling spring keyboard I looked at a lot of options and stuck with a mostly standard layout so that I wouldn't be disadvantaged much when using a different one.   Other than my hand being too small, and most things other than letters being in different places, I would be able switch typing one handed between the two.

Going a step beyond...  A Pyra with the screen removed in your shirt breast pocket, heads up display in your sunglasses or a helmet display.  Secret Cyborg fantasies anyone?

 Jumping back to the forearm mounting, but sans top half, with a HUD might be a good wearable computer.  Another cool idea, even if a bit outdated due to touchscreen portable devices and such.

How would you strap it  to not tiring the left arm? The only possiblity I can see would be some big stuff attached on all your arm. Even with that it would be pretty hard and tiring to type watching your screen.

 This was my idea, and I never said it was practical.  In fact, I said it was unneccesary (thinking of the devices I just mentioned, which work better strapped to your arm), and had it in the same paragraph with desk typing with a handheld, which many think is stupid.  I am pretty sure people don't do things like this with the intention of doing a lot of typing, or staring at their arms.




I have been doing a bit of typing on my Pandora today, and was keeping this layout and thread in mind.  It is a bit inconvenient if one had to move thumbs up to the center of the gaming section frequently while typing.  I nearly never use the shoulder buttons while working the keys, and I move my index fingers down to the bottom of the  Pandora.  I would be fine with mouse buttons on shoulders if I can remap easily, or have a Pandora compatability mode for any Pandora stuff that would otherwise work out of the box.

Regardless of the layout the Pyra gets, I really want that keyboard backlight.  I have a dim light on and it sucks when I mistype a Fn key and try to find it, or forget where the exclamation point, is and have to stare at the keys to find what I am looking for.  The numbers down with the rest of the keys will also be really nice.

 

[_wb_]

If mouse clicks are on the shoulder buttons, and duplicated on the nub clicks, then how exactly does that work? What happens if you click and hold a shoulder button left click, then click with the other left click? Does the software see two press events and then two release events? I imagine that a lot of software does not handle it well if you click the mouse while clicking the mouse.

What do START, SELECT and PAUSE map to?

It's good that you fixed Shift-Tab, but it's still better to have Tab on a dedicated key.

The reason why shoulder button modifiers are more efficient than main key modifiers, is that your typing speed is mostly limited by the distance your thumbs have to travel. The very corner keys (Shift in this case) can be more or less reliably pressed with the base of your thumb instead of its tip. For all other keys, you need to move the tip of your thumb above the key in order to press it. It's the thumb movement that slows you down. Sure, pressing a shoulder button also has some overhead, but at least your thumbs are both free to move while you're doing it.

 

[Granitehead]

I've played around with xdotool quite a bit, which is a tool for faking key and mouse events. Generally when a keydown event was sent and then another one nothing bad happened, the key was just constantly read as depressed. The first key up event released it, other key up events were discarded.

I haven't done extensive testing, but in this area I don't think there are problems.