A video. Again. Mostly about cases.

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

I thought that the shoulder button was called Meta rather than Alt-Gr. Not that I know the difference -- is there one?

Alt-Gr stands for Alternative Graphics (I think) while Meta was a key on Lisp machines. Many systems today use Alt instead of Meta for software like e.g. emacs that originally ran on computers that had a Meta key but no Alt key. So Alt and Meta are different keys but often Alt is used instead of Meta.

 

[Hellfleck]

statement: If you want the Pyra to succeed (and be upgraded in the future) it needs to sell reasonably well

observation: People (not already aware of it) are more willing to spend a large chunk of money on a Pyra if it looks like a high-value item

conclusion: Paint the cases

suggestion: Take a stroll trough a bigger shop where they have phones / computers on display and see what colors are dominant there - these companies tend to do market research for similar target audiences, learn from them for free

You need to think about appealing to future customers, the crowd in the boards (that stayed for this long with it) mostly made up their minds to get a Pyra (or not) long ago ... ;-)

I would start with 2 basic colors for coated cases:

Matte Black for the techies (broadly speaking) and Glossy White for hipsters (not in a negative sense) - those are the 2 big target audiences (not already aware of the Pyra) I can think of willing to spend that much money on it ... stay away from experimental colors as these can be hit or miss based on personal tastes

Personally I do not like painted cases as quite a few of my items have developed paint defects even if they are well painted (Thinkpads for example) - also stay clear of rubber coating ... almost every rubber coating I have seen gets sticky after a few months / years (except older Thinkpads, not sure what they used)

I would love an aluminium (material not color) case ...

Swapping a Pyra case is an easy task compared to the Pandora (as has been shown) so perhaps offer free swaps when early adopter buy different cases in the future (and send their units in) ?

 

[levi]

I'm not sure how a glossy paint/coating would work given the mould is designed to produce plastics with bobbly matte surfaces.

 

[oskda]

I would start with 2 basic colors for coated cases:

Matte Black for the techies (broadly speaking) and Glossy White for hipsters (not in a negative sense) - those are the 2 big target audiences (not already aware of the Pyra) I can think of willing to spend that much money on it ... stay away from experimental colors as these can be hit or miss based on personal tastes

Personally I do not like painted cases as quite a few of my items have developed paint defects even if they are well painted (Thinkpads for example) - also stay clear of rubber coating ... almost every rubber coating I have seen gets sticky after a few months / years (except older Thinkpads, not sure what they used)

I would love an aluminium (material not color) case ...

Swapping a Pyra case is an easy task compared to the Pandora (as has been shown) so perhaps offer free swaps when early adopter buy different cases in the future (and send their units in) ?

I think the problem is double:

1/ Pyra plastic has some light texture in surface. So it may be it doesn't go ok with glossy (like polished surface). I don't know who wants today a slippery glossy case, specially since that fashion got outdated some time ago after Apple left it (they moved it to top fashion and all followed).

2/ That light texture surface in Pyra has the opposite problem: it is too light to hide plastic marks.

All quality plastic items I have seen have paint or coat, so they are good looking (at least when new and for a time), OR they have heavy texture so they hide plastic marks. For example original HP-48 had heavy texture: they were no slippery and that texture hides plastic faults (you can see them inside, if you open machine, as inside side has no texture).

And now we can't get a highly textured Pyra because that mean time (to apply texture to all out-side molds). So the only solution is a high quality coat. Of course I would prefer highly textured plastic, without paint/coat, but I know there is no time for that (and if you modify molds surface to get high texture, it may be they couldn't get painted/coated in good way if you wish to do it after).

 

[ible]

so if you can imagine all these pages of discussion for a boolean "should we paint or not"; then think about how many pages of discussion we had based on the combinatorical "how should we lay out the keys"!

sounds like we are emerging at a "do paint" consensus. let's go for it and shoot for the moon!!

 

[oskda]

I would love an aluminium (material not color) case ...

Swapping a Pyra case is an easy task compared to the Pandora (as has been shown) so perhaps offer free swaps when early adopter buy different cases in the future (and send their units in) ?

So do I, solid aluminum case (with small plastic/rubber window for RF signal) would be nice if good finished. It could be a future option if enough people wants it (via preorder).

My smartphone has high-quality AL-6013 aluminum and after a lo of time using it without cover it is perfect (of course a have a pocket only for it). It looks good and it feels good on hand contact.

 

[docbroke]

and that will feel hot too, not just look hot

 

[oskda]

sounds like we are emerging at a "do paint" consensus. let's go for it and shoot for the moon!!

Apply a COATING Don't do paint

and that will feel hot too, not just look hot

I tested an all aluminum Macbook Air (old model, with good keyboard, no new one with keys that seems they are fixed and don't move when you press them) and certainly I found it REALLY DISTURBING as lot of heat where rejected to my hand in contact with that computer. I hated it and it was no an option for me.

But in my aluminum smartphone I don't have that problem (and I use it extensively to surf internet, chat, etc).

I suppose that my smartphone is more efficient and/or its ARM SOC generates less heat than x86 Mac Air hard, and/or it removes its heat better.

I suppose aluminum case Pyra would be like my smartphone, removing its smaller heat in good way, not like Mac Air transmitting a lot of heat to my hands because it generates great loads of heat.

I think a hardware generating smaller heat would be OK with aluminum as it could dissipate faster, but a hardware generating high volume of heat (like big x86 hard does) is bad served with aluminum if it goes in direct contact with your body (like palm-rest and keyboards do) because it got really hot, and it transmit that heat to your body.

On other side, I suppose I would have more control in my Pyra hard to lower CPU freq than I have in some modern x86 laptops. A lot of laptops doesn't let you control CPU freq like in old times where I had for example SpeedStep control. In the x86 notebook I use most time, IME controls it, because Intel says it is better in that way... its way. I know some gaming laptops have more options, but mine (serious notebooks) doesn't.

 

[netcat]

regardless of anything else,
if ED proclaims there must be paint the topic dies
alternately, there are potentially unforseen horrible consequences, including death
ED: there is only one logical choice: announce that a major investor insists on paint
then we can focus on the ultimate inevitable compromise, i3 as the default wm.

 

[Grench]

Clarifying a bit around this now keyboard thread. Default keyboard mapping does not include an Alt-Gr. The keymat is, by design, able to service English, German and French without needing an Alt-Gr. So, the Alt on the keymat and the Alt on the shoulder are simply left/right Alt keys by default. English was given priority followed by German and then French. For everything else there is a compose key.

I don't have a clear image of the final keymat handy. The boards shrunk the resolution on the one I used for my avatar - so it's blurry but might give enough info for this purpose if you zoom in on it.

Content printed in large white font on the number row is, well, numbers.
Content printed in small superscript white font on the number row are the symbols associated with those keys on a US layout.
Content printed in capital white font on the letter keys are the lower case versions of those letters. If it were literal, they would be lowercase. It is printed in upper because that is what got printed on typewriters back in the earliest days of QWERTY.
Content printed in orange font anywhere on the device requires the use of either the keymat or shoulder Fn key to access.

Alt-Gr and Q are the @ Symbol, which can be usefull for Internet and some Programming Tasks

Shift+2 = @

Also Alt-Gr and E is the € Symbol, which is also pretty important in Germany if you wants to buy you some Brezels or something..
If i remember correctly, on the Pyra, whe also have the German Umlauts now pretty easy äöü, i dotnt know if its though fn or shift, but its not that complicated then on Pandora (where i forgotten the right way to make Umlauts..)..

But thats to far on the edge of a Keyboard Discussion, its cool to have a Keyboard, ..

These "Unpainted Edition" needs a big sticker: "Not for Rewiews!!"

Fn+E = €
German Characters are printed in orange and present on Fn+UIOP.

There is an entire user configurable 'hidden layer' in the keymat. Four layers:
Unmodified keys. (big white printing, lowercase letters)
Shift + key (small white printing or upper-case letters)
Fn + key (small orange printing - symbols)
Fn + shift + key (largely un-mapped and available for end user custom mapping)

We did use Fn+Shift+Key mappings -once-. It is on the brightness control button in the attic.
Unmodified brightness control key = screen brightness up one level
Shift + brightness control key = screen brightness down one level
Fn + brightness control key = keyboard backlight brightness up one level
Fn + Shift + brightness control key = keyboard backlight brightness down one level

All your threads are belong to keyboard!

 

[oskda]

if ED proclaims there must be paint

I think it will be a coating. I think it is a bit different from painting, but I may be wrong.

Of course, I am sure we'll use "paint" instead of "coat" a lot of times (I will do, of course) like synonymous (correctly or incorrectly).

 

[Djoga'Ro]

... then we can focus on the ultimate inevitable compromise, i3 as the default wm.

Clearly you meant CLFSWM.

German Characters are printed in orange and present on Fn+UIOP.

Why I, P? If you mean Umlaute, those should be on A, O, U and Eszett should be on S.

 

[levi]

Clarifying a bit around this now keyboard thread. Default keyboard mapping does not include an Alt-Gr. The keymat is, by design, able to service English, German and French without needing an Alt-Gr. So, the Alt on the keymat and the Alt on the shoulder are simply left/right Alt keys by default. English was given priority followed by German and then French. For everything else there is a compose key.

So if there's no AltGr what's on the fourth shoulder button?

Why I, P? If you mean Umlaute, those should be on A, O, U and Eszett should be on S.

He means those keyboard keys. Those keys generate those compete german glyphs when used with the FN button.

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

Content printed in orange font anywhere on the device requires the use of either the keymat or shoulder Fn key to access.

Can the Fn key be remapped like other keys can? I ask this because on most of my laptops it seems that the OS cannot see whether Fn is pressed or not and the Fn can only be used in combination with other keys.

 

[Grench]

Before we go entirely off the rails in re-hashing the keymat layout, please understand that this is all -done-. Any use case or concern you might have has 99.999% likely been already raised, discussed in excruciating detail, solved for and included in the current design. It may not be just as you as an individual may have done it. It is not as any of us as an individual would have done it. The results that we have are from a highly iterative and collective effort.

"But but but ..."
It is -done-.

I will help people with understanding how to use the keymat layout. This is a thumb optimized layout. If you are expecting to ten finger touch type on a Pyra, then welcome to the Keebler Elves Club. As a thumb optimized layout there are fewer physical keys and there will inevitably be a lot of concerns regarding, "You moved my cheese!" It is there. I'll help you find it.

Why I, P? If you mean Umlaute, those should be on A, O, U and Eszett should be on S.

There is no Alt-Gr. These are fully realized characters on the Fn layer.

So if there's no AltGr what's on the fourth shoulder button?

There isn't an AltGr. There IS a Left Alt and a Right Alt. Right Alt could hypothetically be re-mapped by the end user to be AltGr, but this should not be necessary to communicate in English, German or French. The AltGr 'need' is further reduced by the presence of a Compose key. If there is a symbol that you need to create regularly that is not present in the symbols printed on the keymat, there is an entire additional layer accessible by Fn+Shift+key. Fn+Shift are laid out to be easily 'chordable' - to be pressed with a single thumb on the front right keymat corner or shoulder mashed with the finger(s) on the left shoulder.

He means those keyboard keys. Those keys generate those compete german glyphs when used with the FN button.

Exactly.
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Can the Fn key be remapped like other keys can? I ask this because on most of my laptops it seems that the OS cannot see whether Fn is pressed or not and the Fn can only be used in combination with other keys.

No idea. That is for the lower level hardware and software folks to answer. How about we try to use it how it arrives and see how 'stock' works before worrying about if Fn can be moved?

 

[levi]

There isn't an AltGr. There IS a Left Alt and a Righ Alt. Right Alt could hypothetically be re-mapped by the end user to be AltGr, but this should not be necessary to communicate in English, German or French. The AltGr 'need' is further reduced by the presence of a Compose key. If there is a symbol that you need to create regularly that is not present in the symbols printed on the keymat, there is an entire additional layer accessible by Fn+Shift+key. Fn+Shift are laid out to be easily 'chordable' - to be pressed with a single thumb on the front right keymat corner or shoulder mashed with the finger(s) on the left shoulder.

Yes, I get that but I ask again, if three of the shoulder buttons are shift, ctrl and alt what's the fourth? I remember there were mockups which might be revealing in one of the keyboard threads, but I can't be bothered with trawling through there.

 

[Djoga'Ro]

He means those keyboard keys. Those keys generate those compete german glyphs when used with the FN button.

There is no Alt-Gr. These are fully realized characters on the Fn layer.

I had gotten that. I wonder why two of the German extra glyphs are placed on the I and the P key (and I guess these are A-Umlaut and Eszett), while A-Umlaut would rather be associated with the A key (on German QWERTZ it be right of L, that's not what I'm talking about; I'm talking Fn layer like you) and Eszett with the S key.

Yes, I get that but I ask again, if three of the shoulder buttons are shift, ctrl and alt what's the fourth? I remember there were mockups which might be revealing in one of the keyboard threads, but I can't be bothered with trawling through there.

I think it's about two distinguished keys <Right-Alt> and <Left-Alt>. With shift and control the count would be four.

 

[levi]

I did a bit of digging in one of the many old keyboard threads and I think the thing I'm missing that would be very handy is the alternate FN button; that's what the fourth key might be. I certainly don't want two alts on my shoulder buttons if it can be helped. Accessing the fn layer using a finger freeing up either thumb to actually hit the key in question sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[Grench]

Shoulders are:
Shift & Fn on left
Alt & Ctrl on right

 

[theredbaron]

Shoulders are:
Shift & Fn on left
Alt & Ctrl on right

You are the hero we need.

Also,sounds about perfect to me.