A video. Again. Mostly about cases.

[levi]

It seems you have never used US International layout.

tilde ( ˜ or ~) is inserted in US Int layout with the same key that in US layout but adding "SPACE" so you get ~ instead of ã ẽ ĩ õ .. (you can get ñ in this way or via AltGR+n).

Ah right, so it's red because it's a symbol modifier deaf key. Kind of makes sense. Still, two sequential keys to enter the tilde (a common key in linux/unit) sounds like a downside to me.

If you use English the best layout is US, much better than UK in a PC Keyboard.

I'm in the UK, so I've used a BBC Micro with a kind of US keyboard, and an Acorn Archimedes with an even more US keyboard but still most of the keyboards I've ended up inheriting and using on various projects are UK layout. I don't have a problem with that. I mean I do tend to buy a US keyboard if I have the option every time I buy a keyboard for myself, but that's because I prefer to have a single key where all of my quote keys are rather than the exact positioning of the enter key. But I'm adaptable and have ended up using various UK keyboard on various bits of kit I'm running.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

I had order Dark red color from the time i saw that this red looks more like brown . probably next week it will arrive to my hands .But Discolors are goin to be there . So at the momment the plan we had discused a bit with ED and as he mantion on the video is to have the same color on the plastic and Paint if that happens . Also do not be afraid for the paint ,As you can understand there are profesional companies out there that can manage to make a very good Paint on item, there are always bad companies too though .ED will manage it cause he has experiance of bad companies and good companies . Also the truth is that most of the items you see on the market are painted for couple of reasons. My opinion is to paint the item for more sales since it will look better and will be easier to sell something that it looks good . Then you can invest the monney for improvments or for a new product and since you allready have experiance how all this thing works you know what tools to buy . So yeah for me Paint is the best solution for this project .

Good to know and thanks for the response.

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

two sequential keys to enter the tilde (a common key in linux/unit) sounds like a downside to me.

Yes, this is annoying. Windows used to do this by default and it sucked. The ' and " also needed 2 keypresses, I think. International layout is a huge pain because of those extra keypresses. I'm glad that the Pyra does not go with that.

 

[Neelix]

Yes, this is annoying. Windows used to do this by default and it sucked. The ' and " also needed 2 keypresses, I think. International layout is a huge pain because of those extra keypresses. I'm glad that the Pyra does not go with that.

It's also possible to use the US Int layout without deadkeys. That's what I do, so I always need to hit Alt-gr to get an accented character, but I don't use them enough for this to be a problem for me.

 

[oskda]

It depends on what you mean by next time. There were news (mid July'19) that ED intended to offer keyboard customization kits, so with some transparent paper, scissors, screwdriver, spare time, a printer and software tweaks everyone could have a different keyboard (with the same number of keys).

ED said: «As you know, the final keymats have removable caps, they're not glued anymore. And some of you asked whether it will be possible to get the keymat only partly printed (without the letters). And: Yes, that it possible! We will receive 100 of those blank keymats, so you can do your own experiments with them. We'll also sell spare keycaps in case you lose one during disassembly»

I think it will be double good: You can customize your keymat (symbols on it), and they are more sales to Pyra shop My question is if self-made symbols will be visible with keyboard backlight.

More on topic: I'd prefer a non painted case, and I'm pessimist enough to foresee delays in implementing paint, coating or whatever it is. Maybe it can cause problems with additional thickness but I really don't have a clue about that
My reason is simple and egotistical....

I am egotistical too, and for that reason I want more success for Pyra: more sales so she can live good and we can have CPU upgrade, 5G modem and custom made accessories (from normal and blank keymats to case part replacements). I think a bad case will be bad for Pyra sales/reviews on people different to us, and that will be bad for Pyra, for ED and for us in the long run, because if it fails commercially there will be no long term upgrades/accessories/replacements/etc for Pyra.

And I think you could buy a UNCOATED/UNPAINTED CASE as accessory, so your Pyra looks like you want. By my side, when I get my Pyra in my hands I will order at least a second case when they be available (with my smartphone I got 3 or 4 covers until I got clearly my favorite).

On other side I remember a man who taked his glossy Nintendo DS (what horrible in use was that slippery plastic) an transformed it to matte with sandpaper help and patience. You can transform a good finished item to other look, but the opposite (bad look to good look) isn't so easy. Of course, I hope you don't need sandpaper, if you can order an "unpainted" (no coat) case.

I sympathize with whoever suggested making a more grainy texture to hide decolorisation and helping grip, but I really don't know if that's possible at all, how risky or expensive or how useful, and wothwhile it can be. I guess if it was easy it would have been tried by now

I suggested it (I don't know if someone else suggested it). I would love it but now it is impossible for time: you need to draw that grainy texture on molds (only the parts looking outside in assembled case), and the worst part is that if you do it you can't do normal cases (or you would need molds for highly textured cases and molds for normal cases), and I suppose highly textured case doesn't feel good when coated (at least I only remember coating on plain or slightly textured cases).
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You've convinced me, I want it to look cheap as well!

+1 for urban camouflage

I think you will can: easy way ordering a non-coated case, or hard way with sandpaper and some patience

Getting bad look is easy, usually opposite isn't.
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Ah right, so it's red because it's a symbol modifier deaf key. Kind of makes sense. Still, two sequential keys to enter the tilde (a common key in linux/unit) sounds like a downside to me.

... I mean I do tend to buy a US keyboard if I have the option every time I buy a keyboard for myself...

Pressing ~ an then spacebar is easy (easier than pressing a 2nd key while holding a previous key, and we do this with all capital letters). But with US Int layout you can change between normal US and int layout as all symbols are in the same place.

Apart from ergonomics I like US layout (or US int) because all those symbols so important for Linux, programming, computing, science ( ~ [ ] { } \ | < > etc) are in better position than they are in most European layouts. If you look Spanish or German layouts you will see how bad positioned are those symbols.

I order my keyboards with US layout (and I live in Europe). And when I have got a notebook with European keyboard, I buy US replacement keyboard for it.

 

[pyrat]

I think it will be double good: You can customize your keymat (symbols on it), and they are more sales to Pyra shop My question is if self-made symbols will be visible with keyboard backlight.

If you go back in the thread I linked to, the idea as I understand is you get a keymat with a white square for the light to shine through, then you print
a slightly larger square in black with the letters in "white" and put it on top of the keymat and below the transparent key cap. You print it on transparent paper like we used to use for slideshows, so the "white" is not white but transparent. This way the light shines through the letters.

But I don't know whether I've done well to repeat what it is in another (keyboard) thread here...

I don't think there'll be uncoated cases, too complex stock management I guess, and I don't think it's important enough. I wouldn't take the trouble to use sandpaper on my coated case. It was just a preference, nothing important.

 

[oskda]

Yes, this is annoying. Windows used to do this by default and it sucked. The ' and " also needed 2 keypresses, I think. International layout is a huge pain because of those extra keypresses. I'm glad that the Pyra does not go with that.

It may be you only use English/German/French (the languages Pyra layout is designed for). But think about millions and millions of people who use other western languages, sometimes 2 or more of those languages.

On US keyboard you can use US int or standard US layout. If you don't need other languages, only English, you turn to standard US layout (same keys on same places) so you DON'T need to use 2-keypresses. With US Keyboard you change between US Int and US standard because keys don't change (you can't do that with German, French, UK layouts). It is so simply if you need to write in English and other western languages.

And you are wrong or not well balanced because in Pyra we will need 2-keypresses. when using other language not being English (you will need 2-keypresses. for German and French) and even more keypressed. And you will need 2-keypresses. for lots of symbols. But it may be then you are "glad" with 2-keypresses. in Pyra but no glad with 2-keypresses. using US international layout (layout you can switch with standard US without 2-keypresses. when you want).
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If you go back in the thread I linked to, the idea as I understand is you get a keymat with a white square for the light to shine through, then you print
a slightly larger square in black with the letters in "white" and put it on top of the keymat and below the transparent key cap. You print it on transparent paper like we used to use for slideshows, so the "white" is not white but transparent. This way the light shines through the letters.

It sounds good. I remember a much older post where someone, I don't remember if was ED, said you could put symbols under but they will be not lighted. I suppose optional transparent keymat is more recent, and I love it.

And as LED under keymat are white, I think we could test other colors (usually I prefer red for keyboard light, as white disturbs me, although I know white is more energy efficient, i.e. you need less energy for same light as white LED is more efficient and there is no color filter in between).

But I don't know whether I've done well to repeat what it is in another (keyboard) thread here...

I think it is better to end keyboard debate because it gets hard, specially with some people who doesn't understand some problems as they don't suffer them.

But optional "blank" (allowing self-made symbols) keymats are very good news. NO keyborad war with this good news.

I don't think there'll be uncoated cases, too complex stock management I guess, and I don't think it's important enough. I wouldn't take the trouble to use sandpaper on my coated case. It was just a preference, nothing important.

I think there will be: they produce cases and some of them, instead of going to coating (it is done on other plant) will go directly to ED. And they are more sales to shop. Of course, standard Pyra will go coated, so it looks good and get better reviews.

Sandpaper is another option, of course

Even better: You can order a uncoated case and sand your coated case so you will have 2 uncoated cases, and sanded one will be more personal (I don't know if it will be more good than ordered uncoated case or worse, but, if you do, please send us pictures so we can see which one looks better ).

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

It may be you only use English/German/French (the languages Pyra layout is designed for). But think about millions and millions of people who use other western languages, sometimes 2 or more of those languages.

Many of them also use English, just like I use English despite not being English natively.

On US keyboard you can use US int or standard US layout. If you don't need other languages, only English, you turn to standard US layout (same keys on same places) so you DON'T need to use 2-keypresses. With US Keyboard you change between US Int and US standard because keys don't change (you can't do that with German, French, UK layouts). It is so simply if you need to write in English and other western languages.

I was talking about the US Int layout, if you switch to US layout then it's not the US Int anymore. That's like saying that camels can fly by switching them with birds.

And you are wrong or not well balanced because in Pyra we will need 2-keypresses. when using other language not being English (you will need 2-keypresses. for German and French) and even more keypressed. And you will need 2-keypresses. for lots of symbols. But it may be then you are "glad" with 2-keypresses. in Pyra but no glad with 2-keypresses. using US international layout (layout you can switch with standard US without 2-keypresses. when you want).

No, you are wrong about thinking that I was talking about all characters even though my post and the context I was replying in specifically mentioned what characters I was talking about.

Either way I think the US Int layout as described by Neelix would be fine. But layout can of course be changed in software to some extend and I'll probably customise it anyway.

 

[oskda]

No, you are wrong about thinking that I was talking about all characters even though my post and the context I was replying in specifically mentioned what characters I was talking about.

I wasn't: I was not thinking you talked about all characters but simply I wanted to point that lots of characters need 2 keys (in a standard PC keyboard and much more chars in a Pyra keyboard), and worst: most of them require simultaneous pressing 2 keys, while dead keys are easier as you don't need to hold a key while pressing other, and exactly the chars you stated require spacebar press and spacebar is bigger/easier key to press... It is incredible you don't notice all this and you think I am wrong about it. But I don't want more nonsense discussion.

And if you look a French keyboard you will see ' char is shifted, and that is worse than using dead key. You may get used to not shifted ' key but lots of keyboards have it shifted (worse than dead key).

Even if you see Pyra keyboard you will see «'» is SHIFTED. Is it annoying/"it sucked"/"huge pain"/"I'm (not) glad" for you ???? Did you realized it? Really?

In this moment I realized in US int layout you can introduce ' and ` chars simply pressing them twice. I was so used to dead keys than I used «'»+space but you can press «'»+«'» («'» twice) or «`»+«`». I think your claims for annoying/"it sucked"/"huge pain"/"I'm glad" now can be lowered or simply wrong.

In any case I don't want keyboard-war, even less lots of messages with "You thought, I was thinking/talking..."/etc/etc, nonsense discussion.

Either way I think the US Int layout as described by Neelix would be fine.

It may be Neelix is wrong. Now I am using Ubuntu (I don't know if he uses Windows/MacOS/other...) and I see 2 US int layout: one called with dead keys layout and either called "alternate layout". There are some differences but both have some dead keys or you need for example pressing «`» twice to get that char as that is dead key in both layouts.

Of course in Pyra keyboard more chars need to be SHIFTED or combined as it has fewer keys than a normal PC keyboard. Obviously US base keyboard have to be downsized/combined to fit on Pyra. But I think it is easier to fit US (the same than US Int) and serve all western languages, instead of adapting a so few keys keyboard like Pyra only for German/French (English don't need it as it is base keyboard). Of course you may think it isn't because you need to press 2 keys, while on Pyra you need to press 2 keys a lot of times to get lots of chars. I consider that nonsense.

Here I end layout discussion/war on my side. (Sorry but it is closed and too much nonsense discussion if others don't understand the problem because they don't suffer/use/etc).

But layout can of course be changed in software to some extend and I'll probably customise it anyway.

Of course I will customize in software, even I will buy and customize blank keymats. I think it will be funny or at least interesting.

 

[λ the β-Redex Reducer]

I wasn't: I was not thinking you talked about all characters but simply I wanted to point that lots of characters need 2 keys (in a standard PC keyboard and much more chars in a Pyra keyboard),

The fact that you said I was wrong and then gave a wrong reason as to why made me think that you misunderstood me. I just wanted to clear up what I meant. Anyway I already knew that which you wanted to point out, it's just that I care more about the more commonly used keys (in GNU/Linux environments like bash and in programming languages) hence why I only talked about those (despite the fact that my native language uses characters like ï and ë).

Of course in Pyra keyboard more chars need to be SHIFTED or combined as it has fewer keys than a normal PC keyboard. Obviously US base keyboard have to be downsized/combined to fit on Pyra. But I think it is easier to fit US (the same than US Int) and serve all western languages, instead of adapting a so few keys keyboard like Pyra only for German/French (English don't need it as it is base keyboard). Of course you may think it isn't because you need to press 2 keys, while on Pyra you need to press 2 keys a lot of times to get lots of chars. I consider that nonsense.

I actually do not mind shifting with the shoulder buttons because I can use the shoulder buttons while moving my thumb.

 

[oskda]

... I care more about the more commonly used keys (in GNU/Linux environments like bash and in programming languages)

So do I. I prefer US int layout for a lot of reasons, and one of them is precisely that it is much better suited to computer tech/programming/Linux than all European layouts I know (some of them are nearly like US, but not equal). For example, when programming we mostly use English.

I actually do not mind shifting with the shoulder buttons because I can use the shoulder buttons while moving my thumb.

Is a good point when we'll use Pyra while holding it with our hands and most of time it will we used in that way. And we got 4 shoulder buttons. Sometimes we can use it on a desk/table/surface, but of course most times it will be held on our hands (and typing with thumbs), not in a desk/table...

 

[levi]

Yes, but the pyra was also designed to be usable on a desk, IIRC one of ED's reasonings behind the keyboard layout. But personally I plan to type on it handheld too.