Yet another pandora-sucessor concept

[Exophase]

My tv does DP, my computer screens. Cellphone does otg MHL.

My nintendo wii and pandora dont do hdmi.

I feel this is the full dvi vs vga all over again, just carry the adapter and let the world move on.

DP didnt get pushed out, it arrived late, meanwhile everyone and thier dog was cursing hdcp.

DP is still winning where it matters. They did this with a more open standard, better backing, better technology, doesn't need new cables every year, and of course, is royalty free.

Edit: it isnt that DP is a must, its that hdmi is a big _must not_ over usb solutions.

No one ever said DP got pushed out of the market. Maybe you're confused because I said HD-DVD did.

How could HDMI be a solution over USB? There will be USB either way, adding an HDMI (or DP) port doesn't take away from that. If you want to buy a relatively expensive USB video adapter and rely on the software to support it that's up to you regardless. Or do you think a lack of TV-out port would mean one more full size USB?

 

[WizardStan]

Although in this case it doesn't matter much if you can use a cheap adapter for interoperability.

The "cheap" adapter is $6. How many people will need that adapter? HDMI is a max $2 per unit cost provided 5000 a year are sold and can be readily calculated based on sales but wouldn't need an adapter. Even if only 1000 are sold, that's still just the same $6 per unit as the adapter.One of two things needs to happen for me to be behind DP 100%: either find a source of adapters for about $2 so that one could be sent to everyone for the same cost as the HDMI license, or someone do some work to figure out approximately how many people would really use or require an adapter.

I don't like the idea of (again) shipping a unit that requires an adapter that may be difficult or expensive to obtain (depending on where you live), but I do like the idea of being able to account for things in advance.

I guess another way could simply be EvilDragon sells DisplayPort adapters alongside the Pandora, and you specify it as a $5 upgrade that you want when you order. That would work. Ok, I'm comfortable with this, there are enough options, as long as something can be worked out that wouldn't result in the same scenario we're in now where people want to use TV out but simply can't.

 

[comradekingu]

Well, as a reference to those better things that didnt get a foothold, DP has done the opposite, play on unfair advantage and still win.

I meant USB weighed up against hdmi. Adding a HDMI port means one less usb port.

Lets say you have 3 ports, of which 2 are general, can be used for anything, then you have one which is redundant. Why not either replace it with something that works or have 3 useful usb ports.

As it is now, the usecase is playing games, for the most part on the pandora itself. Adding extra usb ports adds to that. A handheld device hooked up to a monitor is nothing but a less viable handheld in my eyes (in light of usb not only contributing to the handheld usability but also being good for video.)

 

[Binky]

Here's a suggestion:

Make the fist few years of production use HDMI (licensed), then cut out the audio lines and call it DVI-D (doesn't need licensing)

That way the cost of licensing fees per device won't escalate out of control as demand drops.

 

[Exophase]

The "cheap" adapter is $6. How many people will need that adapter? HDMI is a max $2 per unit cost provided 5000 a year are sold and can be readily calculated based on sales but wouldn't need an adapter. Even if only 1000 are sold, that's still just the same $6 per unit as the adapter.

One of two things needs to happen for me to be behind DP 100%: either find a source of adapters for about $2 so that one could be sent to everyone for the same cost as the HDMI license, or someone do some work to figure out approximately how many people would really use or require an adapter.

I don't like the idea of (again) shipping a unit that requires an adapter that may be difficult or expensive to obtain (depending on where you live), but I do like the idea of being able to account for things in advance.

I guess another way could simply be EvilDragon sells DisplayPort adapters alongside the Pandora, and you specify it as a $5 upgrade that you want when you order. That would work. Ok, I'm comfortable with this, there are enough options, as long as something can be worked out that wouldn't result in the same scenario we're in now where people want to use TV out but simply can't.

You're right, I shouldn't have said it doesn't really matter because it does. What I should have said is that it's a relatively minor expense. I think your economic comparison will probably be in favor of HDMI, but I also think the other benefits of DP (including being more open) can't be ignored.

Well, as a reference to those better things that didnt get a foothold, DP has done the opposite, play on unfair advantage and still win.

How has it won? Is it now in more new products than HDMI? Let's get real here, whatever success DP has had is owed to one thing: Apple.

I meant USB weighed up against hdmi. Adding a HDMI port means one less usb port.

Lets say you have 3 ports, of which 2 are general, can be used for anything, then you have one which is redundant. Why not either replace it with something that works or have 3 useful usb ports.

As it is now, the usecase is playing games, for the most part on the pandora itself. Adding extra usb ports adds to that. A handheld device hooked up to a monitor is nothing but a less viable handheld in my eyes (in light of usb not only contributing to the handheld usability but also being good for video.)

It's time to stop looking at your own personal tastes and desires and look at what the majority wants. I guarantee you that in a public poll HDMI would win over an extra USB port, probably by a landslide. Even purely from the context of playing games.. and in that context I can't fathom this use case of 3 USB ports being desirable for games where TV-out isn't. Are you imagining three people with USB controllers huddled around a Pandora screen?

Here's a suggestion:

Make the fist few years of production use HDMI (licensed), then cut out the audio lines and call it DVI-D (doesn't need licensing)

That way the cost of licensing fees per device won't escalate out of control as demand drops.

You're not really being serious are you??

 

[WizardStan]

You're not really being serious are you??

Not the worst suggestion I've ever heard. Playing devil's advocate, if EvilDragon does decide that HDMI is better than DP it may turn out to be necessary to lower the cost of the device later. If demand drops and he only sells 500, that's $11 per device for HDMI, $5500 that could have been put towards something else. Presumably whatever he comes up with will also have dedicated line out (if MWeston has anything to say about it) so it wouldn't be a total loss.That being said, I think I am definitely in favour of DP now, even if HDMI is "more standard".

 

[Exophase]

The only thing worse than not having an obvious feature like audio on the TV out is having it then removing it. You don't remove a feature unless it's truly proven itself useless. Just think of the people who read/watch reviews of the device and buy one only to find it doesn't have something it's supposed to. Changing the HDMI to DP later on would be a much less severe compromise. I too think that DP makes sense upfront, though.

 

[Binky]

(in light of usb not only contributing to the handheld usability but also being good for video.)

Here I disagree.USB is not good for video because the heavy CPU load required to drive video over it.

I imagine it would be impossible to play high-performance games over USB-displaylink

 

[Grench]

The business world uses DP exclusively, it is a VESA standard like VGA was, so it will be supported till its technically defunct and then some.

I've been in conference rooms all over North America.  I've never seen DP as an option in one of them for output to the in-room AV equipment.  The ones built in the last year usually have VGA, DVI and HDMI options - but never DP.

Current HP laptops ship with the following ports:

• 4 SuperSpeed USB 3.0; 1 USB 2.0 (with HP USB Boost); 1 HDMI; 1 RJ45; 1 headphone-out/microphone-in combo
  

Current Dell laptops ship with the following ports:

• • Ports: Connect MP3 players, cameras, external drives and more using two USB 3.0, two USB 2.0, HDMI 1.4 and RJ45 Ethernet ports. 

Current Lenovo laptops ship with the following ports:

• 1 MiniDisplayPort with audio, 1 VGA, 1 3.5mm Combo Jack Headphone/MIC, 2 USB 3.0, 1 USB 2.0, 1 Always on USB 2.0, 1 4-in-1 SD Card Reader (SD/SDHC/SDXC/MMC slot), 1 Express Card 34mm, 1 Smart Card Reader

Finally found one with mini DP on it - but I had to look.

So I went looking at business projectors.

I could not find a SINGLE business (overhead mounted) 1920x1080 projection unit that uses Display Port.

So - about that statement...  what world do you live in?

 

[Exophase]

USB3 video load would mostly be handled by DMA engines.. unless there's a big software problem. Does mean you need a USB3 implementation. And not a crappy one.

 

[_wb_]

DP is not going to go away, it's going to be available in most monitors, televisions and beamers soon enough. We don't have to worry about unavailable TV out cables. Maybe initially many people will need an adapter, but it would be an adapter that is easy to find. We could use DP++ so a passive adapter is enough to get a DVI or HDMI signal. Or MyDP so the port is also a microUSB port.

 

[Exophase]

DP is not going to go away, it's going to be available in most monitors, televisions and beamers soon enough.

Not good enough (if actually true), unless people are on much more aggressive upgrade cycles with their TVs than I think they are. I can't fathom a big incentive to replace your 4 year old 50" TV with a new 50" TV unless the old one stopped working. None of the advances strike me as compelling enough; they're not phones.

That would probably apply somewhat even to projectors and monitors. And if today DP projectors can't be found at all it's a little hard to believe they'll be on all of them overnight..

Could you explain that part about DP++ and passive adapters? I always thought that plain old DP could be passively converted to either format.

 

[TrashyMG]

Yeah passive adapters from DisplayPort Mini to HDMI are very common and cheap..

http://www.amazon.com/HDE%C2%AE-Mini-Display-Adapter-Cable/dp/B009K62HQ0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377550980&sr=8-1&keywords=displayport+mini+to+hdmi

http://www.amazon.com/Tera-Grand-DisplayPort-Thunderbolt-Microsoft/dp/B006FKPLFS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1377551046&sr=8-3&keywords=displayport+mini+to+hdmi

 

[Mr_Loon]

Yeah passive adapters from DisplayPort Mini to HDMI are very common and cheap..

http://www.amazon.com/HDE%C2%AE-Mini-Display-Adapter-Cable/dp/B009K62HQ0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377550980&sr=8-1&keywords=displayport+mini+to+hdmi

http://www.amazon.com/Tera-Grand-DisplayPort-Thunderbolt-Microsoft/dp/B006FKPLFS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1377551046&sr=8-3&keywords=displayport+mini+to+hdmi

Not sure you can really call those cheap if compared to HDMI licencing costs. I'd ask anyone who favours DP to count up how many devices they have with DP in and compare that to how many they have with HDMI in, then think about friends and family (i.e. where you might well use a portable computer for TV out).

What I'd like to be able to do with P2 is be able to use the Pandora for tv out when I'm not at home without having to bring / remember an adapter. I can't think of any place in terms of homes of friends and family where I'd need anything other than a full sized HDMI out port on P2 to allow this to happen. I've no real objection to using an adapter at home, but wouldn't want to have to rely on one when out and about to make P2 fully functional, unless it was absolutely necessary.

This would of course no way be a deal breaker for me but who knows, it might be for some. Or to put it another way, what looks better on the spec sheet for marketing terms, HDMI out or DP out? Anyone who thinks DP out is the answer here should think about why, if that is the case, DP is not well on the way to becoming the de facto standard.

Still not seen a link to a TV with DP in.

Does such a thing even exist yet?

Googling 'TV with displayport input' in Google shopping shows a load of adapters, same on Amazon.

 

[Grench]

Yeah passive adapters from DisplayPort Mini to HDMI are very common and cheap..

http://www.amazon.com/HDE%C2%AE-Mini-Display-Adapter-Cable/dp/B009K62HQ0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1377550980&sr=8-1&keywords=displayport+mini+to+hdmi

http://www.amazon.com/Tera-Grand-DisplayPort-Thunderbolt-Microsoft/dp/B006FKPLFS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1377551046&sr=8-3&keywords=displayport+mini+to+hdmi

At that point why not just use an MHL port and be done with it?  Those adapters are cheap too.

I brought up the idea once to use micro-USB 3.0 host port on the device.  Everyone wants full-sized USB so they don't have to use an adapter.  I think that the same anti-adapter crowd is going to want a full sized HDMI port.  Which, if there is already going to be a full sized USB host port, the HDMI isn't going to add thickness beyond that.

The licensing costs for the HDMI port...  not cheap, but is it all that bad in the grand scheme?

So - if the device had:

Full sized USB 3.0 host

Full sized HDMI port

microUSB OTG 2.X port (I would prefer to use the miniUSB like we have now so it's more robust - but I'm in the minority there)

charging port (possible to delete by using the microUSB OTG, but people seem to want a dedicated charging port anyway) (alternatively use an MHL type?)

headphone/mic jack

Two full sized SDXC slots

Hidden microSDXC slot for OS/non-removable storage

Wouldn't that be plenty?  We're not talking about a 'svelte' device the moment we include full-height USB and HDMI though.

 

[comradekingu]

The problem is that the license fee for hdmi is there for everyone, regardless of what they want.

http://www.displaylink.com/usb3/index.php With this there is plenty res 2560x1600 and everyone gets a choice of their favourite connector, even the analogue crowd. That versatility is good, even though you happen to have 90% hdmi. This means an extra whatever towards buying an adaptor (and those could be bundled, which is cool) The DPs get their fix, and most interestingly, the ones who dont want either, are saved that expenditure and rewarded an extra usb, which we can all enjoy.

I argue that most of the time its good to have an extra usb port on what is essentially a handheld device, and that it caters to that usecase. Some of the time you want to go external, and _every single time_ its better to have options. In this case that means adaptors, which is the downside.

I would maybe even go so far as to can the charging port for an extra powered usb. Or you could use two usb3 ports.

Come to think of it, i don't see why graphics cant be hardware accelerated. There is hardware acceleration for s4 over MHL. And the overhead when you have the circuitry for it is negligible. There will probably be some compression above 1900x1200, but then you are catering to the select few.

 

[Exophase]

I brought up the idea once to use micro-USB 3.0 host port on the device.  Everyone wants full-sized USB so they don't have to use an adapter.  I think that the same anti-adapter crowd is going to want a full sized HDMI port.  Which, if there is already going to be a full sized USB host port, the HDMI isn't going to add thickness beyond that.

There's a subtle but important difference between USB adapters and TV-out adapters. Full size USB can facilitate small objects like dongles that are meant to barely stick out of the device. Having to use an adapter would make it stick out more, and would put a lot of stress on a micro-USB connector for a device that was designed with the mechanical stability of a full size connection.. With TV-out you'd only ever use it with a cable, and you can even get cables that go from DP to HDMI directly where there's no extra component at all.

I argue that most of the time its good to have an extra usb port on what is essentially a handheld device, and that it caters to that usecase. Some of the time you want to go external, and _every single time_ its better to have options. In this case that means adaptors, which is the downside.

How much are you going to argue in favor of something you know no one wants? People who want TV-out aren't going to prefer a third USB port if it means buying a $50 USB to HDMI adapter, period.

 

[comradekingu]

Then again i didnt say converters, but i dont know whos point we are trying to make here.

MHL 3 seems promising, reading about it now.

 

[_wb_]

DP is not going to go away, it's going to be available in most monitors, televisions and beamers soon enough.

Not good enough (if actually true), unless people are on much more aggressive upgrade cycles with their TVs than I think they are. I can't fathom a big incentive to replace your 4 year old 50" TV with a new 50" TV unless the old one stopped working. None of the advances strike me as compelling enough; they're not phones.


That would probably apply somewhat even to projectors and monitors. And if today DP projectors can't be found at all it's a little hard to believe they'll be on all of them overnight..

I'm sure you'll still find plenty of monitors that only accept VGA and/or DVI, beamers that take S-Video and composite, TVs with SCART and so on. It's clear that in general, adapters will be needed for quite a while unless we put a lot of ports on the P2: HDMI, Composite, S-Video, VGA, DVI and DP would all be needed if you want to have a chance to not need adapters at all

I guess it boils down to what kind of time frame you have in mind for the P2. If it's going to be something that will be released soon (say 2014) and will have become outdated, not sold anymore and barely used anymore a few years later (say 2016, 2017), then probably HDMI is the best choice. But if it's something that will not be released that soon (say 2015) and would be something that is designed to last, with a long-term community around it so that people will still be buying it and using it in 2020 or even 2025, then I think DP would be more "future proof".

Could you explain that part about DP++ and passive adapters? I always thought that plain old DP could be passively converted to either format.

I'm not an expert on this (I still use VGA on my current beamer, it doesn't have HDMI and its native resolution is 1024x768 anyway), I just know what is on Wikipedia

Wikipedia

Dual-mode DisplayPort (also known as DisplayPort++[25]) can directly output single-link HDMI and DVI signals using a simple passive adapter that adjusts from the different connector and the lower voltages used by DisplayPort.[26][27] When a dual-mode chipset detects that a DVI or HDMI passive adapter is attached, it switches to DVI/HDMI mode which uses the 4-lane main DisplayPort link and the AUX channel link to transmit 3 TMDS signals, a clock signal and Display Data Channel data/clock. Dual-mode ports are marked with the DP++ logo; most current DisplayPort graphics cards and monitors offer this mode.

 

[WizardStan]

Oh. So standard DisplayPort requires an active adapter to bump the voltage and do something with the timing. It's only this DisplayPort++ (which seems to be ubiquitous anyway) that requires a passive adapter. The P2 would need to be built with such a thing in mind. It's just like the USB thing: USB2.0 is only backwards compatible with USB1.1 if there's a translation chip in between which all PCs have but the Pandora could not. Active adapters seem to be running about $40! In order to use a "cheap" passive adapter the P2 would need to be designed with that in mind, which throws out the idea of starting with HDMI and switching to DP later.

Unless ED and MWeston decide to go non-standard and just make the DisplayPort a direct HDMI: only works with the passive adapter and doesn't actually work with any other display port devices, but that is defeating the entire purpose of display port and would only be useful in avoiding the licensing fees.

I don't think I like DisplayPort anymore.