Would a kit Pyra be cheaper ?

[Kev2442]

Hi all, quick question here.

I don't think I'm the only one here liking parts assembly (the geek evolution is basically from LEGOs to PCs  ), so I thought :

If we buy all parts at once from ED's shop, but as spares, would we get a Pyra for less than if it was fully assembled ?

I'm not afraid of it, especially as I think I'd open it anyway to have a look at the insides.

So first, would that be an option, and then, would that be cheaper ?

Also, if both are a "yes", would this option be available on preorder ?

 

[Bosbeetle]

The pandora is the only device I know relatively well from the inside... It makes it even better imo.

 

[Xcl4m4t10n]

It's a great idea! I don't know if it's possible or not but it would work for me .

 

[_wb_]

It probably depends on whether packaging the components for a kit would be cheaper than assembling the unit and packaging that.

I know nothing about this topic, but my gut feeling is that at these quantities, everything is basically manually handled, and individually packaging the bare components (pcb, case parts, screen+pcb, cable, speakers, maybe some leds and some screws) in a way that is safe for transport could very well be more work hours, more packaging material and require a bigger box than assembling the unit and packaging that. After all, an assembled unit would be much more suitable for transport than a disassembled one.

The fact that this was not done for the Pandora, and as far as I can tell ED did everything to further simplify the assembly process for the Pyra, indicates to me that there's not much cost to be saved here. But I could be wrong, and it's an interesting question to ask.

 

[Neelix]

FWIW I think the fact that it wasn't done for the Pandora owed more to the fact that there were no PCBs available.   (and the first several thousand boards were already accounted for at least in theory)  Craigix did actually make pretty much all the other individual parts available for purchase though his store.   (which fooled at least 2 people I know into thinking it was actually only being sold in kit form)

-Neelix

 

[vcoleiro1]

Direct quote from EDs post in the How to Calculate a price for Pyra thread

Assembly, testing and packaging

Each unit needs to be fully assembled, tested and packaged up, so it's ready to be shipped to the customer.

With the Pandora, this is pretty complex. We're trying to improve that for the Pyra as well (mainly case design changes).

Also, as the Pyra has a faster SoC, the self-tests should run faster.

The Pandora cost for this was 10 EUR per unit, I expect 7 - 9 EUR for the Pyra.

Pretty much not going to save much if anything in the end. Or be worth the hasttle for anyone

 

[_wb_]

Direct quote from EDs post in the How to Calculate a price for Pyra thread

Assembly, testing and packaging

Each unit needs to be fully assembled, tested and packaged up, so it's ready to be shipped to the customer.

With the Pandora, this is pretty complex. We're trying to improve that for the Pyra as well (mainly case design changes).

Also, as the Pyra has a faster SoC, the self-tests should run faster.

The Pandora cost for this was 10 EUR per unit, I expect 7 - 9 EUR for the Pyra.

Pretty much not going to save much if anything in the end. Or be worth the hasttle for anyone

Right, I forgot about testing. The easiest way to check that the PCB, nubs, display cable, screen etc actually work is by assembling the unit, booting the thing from a test SD card, and run some semi-automated tests.

So the hypothetical "Pyra-kit" would have to be untested, and provided the components can be packaged for free (not a valid assumption!), you would save 7-9 EUR.

For comparison: people are arguing that everyone should get 5GHz wifi and pay at least 14 EUR more for that.

So alas, I think we can conclude this thread and answer the title question: Nope, not really.

 

[Kev2442]

Yeah.

Thank you all for the quick answers.

I'd like to have ED's opinion about that though. He could give us some insight about this matter.

Or maybe it can be assembled, tested, then disassembled again  :lol:

 

[TrashyMG]

Yeah.

Thank you all for the quick answers.

I'd like to have ED's opinion about that though. He could give us some insight about this matter.

Or maybe it can be assembled, tested, then disassembled again  :lol:

He's busy at gamescom today. Which is only slightly more busy than he normally is.

 

[rygD]

I think a kit would be cool.  It isn't for me (I don't have all the time and tools needed, and I would probably kill multiple components and need to buy replacements), but it would be fun.  I think it would end up being much more expensive, as it isn't quite as simple as other kit computers (of the "retro" variety) I have looked at recently, and some of those are pretty pricey and don't include everything (case, keyboard, display, etc).

 

[DaMummy]

I think the warranty nightmare alone isn't worth the hassle. Take out the basic failure rates of any electronic, especially one of this magnitude, add the chance of something breaking because it's all shipped in pieces, add that nothing was even tested to see if it works because it requires to be put together before testing, to customers breaking it during assembly without willing to admit to them breaking it, leading to bad publicity....just tell me where to stop. 

 

[Grench]

For comparison: people are arguing that everyone should get 5GHz wifi and pay at least 14 EUR more for that.

Not quite accurate. There are many people who NEED 5Ghz. For many of the rest, 5Ghz will come in handy or be useful at some time. There is a small audience who wants to save 14EUR on a 500+EUR device that think their LACK of a need should take priority.

Splitting the production stream into with/without 5Ghz wireless would likely add around 10EUR or so per unit - on BOTH sides. So, realistically it's one or the other, not both as options.

The 'need 5Ghz' crowd would be less inclined to buy - and more likely to return the unit for 'bad wireless'. Remember the fiasco that was the Pandora's WiFi. That is not something to repeat. So, there MUST be units with 5Ghz.

Adding the costs to maintain two product streams, tracking, stocking, warehousing, picking, shipping, etc... adds costs - likely in the ~10EUR range. If there must be a 2nd version without 5Ghz, then the actual savings/difference in real costs between having a single 5Ghz version or having two versions so a few can, "save money", is likely to be more in the 4EUR range in order to account for the 'two lines' overhead.

So, just produce them in 5Ghz and lets pretend that this whole conversation of saving 4EUR by crushing a highly important feature for a large portion of the audience on a 500EUR device OR increasing the price for EVERYONE never happened. OK?

 

[levi]

I think it would end up being much more expensive, as it isn't quite as simple as other kit computers (of the "retro" variety) I have looked at recently, and some of those are pretty pricey and don't include everything (case, keyboard, display, etc).

What sort of retro computers are you talking about?  Through-hole PCB computers used to be cheaper as kits, because inserting and soldering all of those components used to be a significant job.  Since pick and place and wave soldering techniques have moved into the mainstream, that's not really been the case though.

If you're talking about new kit computers, I suspect those are more expensive than they'd be if they were sold pre-assembled, simply because the costs of local QC will be cheaper than sending parts out and handling all those returns.  If you mean things like the Pi, then I wouldn't really count them as kits, as you're only attaching peripherals to that - the computer itself comes as a complete, tested board.

 

[Grench]

I think it would end up being much more expensive, as it isn't quite as simple as other kit computers (of the "retro" variety) I have looked at recently, and some of those are pretty pricey and don't include everything (case, keyboard, display, etc).

What sort of retro computers are you talking about?  Through-hole PCB computers used to be cheaper as kits, because inserting and soldering all of those components used to be a significant job.  Since pick and place and wave soldering techniques have moved into the mainstream, that's not really been the case though.

If you're talking about new kit computers, I suspect those are more expensive than they'd be if they were sold pre-assembled, simply because the costs of local QC will be cheaper than sending parts out and handling all those returns.  If you mean things like the Pi, then I wouldn't really count them as kits, as you're only attaching peripherals to that - the computer itself comes as a complete, tested board.

Can you imagine people trying to hand place the components on the Pyra motherboard then putting them in a toaster oven to flow?

Failure rate:  100%.

 

[rygD]

 

What sort of retro computers are you talking about? 

http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=7

http://www.willegal.net/appleii/appleii-kit.htm


and others like these.

As for cost of a Pyra kit, it would cost more for me, at least it would if I want a fully functional Pyra in the end, for the reasons I gave.  If some things can't be tested until it is assembled, as others have said, then should replacement parts be available upon request, or should the buyer be responsible for these?  Either way I think it adds to the end cost.  It could be cheaper in the end.  As I said before, I think it would be more expensive. I could be wrong.

 

[Kev2442]

By kit, I meant basically the full PCBs ready. Just connect them together and put the whole into a case.

 

[Grench]

By kit, I meant basically the full PCBs ready. Just connect them together and put the whole into a case.

It would likely cost more to package each 'piece' separately than it would to assemble them.  It would be impossible to test the final unit - unless you want them to assemble it, test it, disassemble it, package the components and ship it.

There is no way they could warranty the thing in 'kit form'.

What confuses me about these types of questions...

Why would you WANT to have it as a 'kit'?  It would not be able to be significantly cheaper, and may actually be more expensive.  It could not have a warranty - it couldn't even be tested.  

I'm not opposed to getting out the screwdrivers, but come on - this is silly.

 

[levi]

Yeah, that's pretty much the only meaning of 'Pyra kit' that makes sense to me.  I refer you to my comment about the costs of local QC versus handling returns

 

[Klumpen]

I guess, that this would cause a lot of ruckus with the German legal system concerning the warranty of electronic gadgets.

Usually, the warranty is gone if the customer is opening the product himself, because he could cause harm in it and claim, that it already was like this.

I don't know how this is handled with warranty of spare parts or if there is something like this at all.

 

[Kev2442]

I just better explained what I asked for in the first place, that's all.

Some people sounded like they wanted to populate the PCBs themselves.

I suppose it's not worth the effort anyway.