Will DX12 improve things for gamers?

[ekianjo]

in getting my job done as well as gaming

you started the whole discussion about GUI, and here you are changing the focus again. That's why we said you do strawmans the whole time.  

 

[kasp]

in getting my job done as well as gaming

you started the whole discussion about GUI, and here you are changing the focus again. That's why we said you do strawmans the whole time.  

Wait so when comparing OS's you can only use the GUI?    

FFS this is a bit ridiculous, that isn't even what a strawman is. A strawman is when I build an argument up for someone and then tear it down. How is me venturing outside of a scope I set myself being a strawman?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 I guess that's the only way you would win in your mind by creating these arbitrary rules which have no bearing on anything. I made a comment about the GUI and suddenly I am bound to that in it's entirety? Grow up and stop being so pedantic.  I actually made that comment because to me linux is unbelievable but not when it is used as a desktop rather than a server.  The main difference between a server and a desktop version is the GUI and programs that come bundled in with that.

In other news I installed MINT and for once I don't have to dick around with Xserver to get multi monitors working granted I am not using Nvidias driver yet but theres one headache I don't have to deal with.

 

[Ziz]

in getting my job done as well as gaming

 you started the whole discussion about GUI, and here you are changing the focus again. That's why we said you do strawmans the whole time.

 Wait so when comparing OS's you can only use the GUI?

No, but you started this with saying "Windows is a far better desktop" + "Windows 10 has a far better virtual desktop experience than Linux" without any argument for it. You just told it, and it is right, because you told it! I asked you multiply times, why the Windows 10 virtual desktop is so awesome, I even told you, why I like the virtual desktops of Linux and how my setup handles them, but you responded nothing! You pick the argument, which you think are the easiest to fight against and repeat the myth of the need to compile software all the time - without naming even one software you needed to compile yourself.

I guess that's the only way you would win in your mind by creating these arbitrary rules which have no bearing on anything. I made a comment about the GUI and suddenly I am bound to that in it's entirety? Grow up and stop being so pedantic.  I actually made that comment because to me linux is unbelievable but not when it is used as a desktop rather than a server.  The main difference between a server and a desktop version is the GUI and programs that come bundled in with that.

If you don't want to be bound to an argument: Don't bring it!

 

[kasp]

in getting my job done as well as gaming

 
you started the whole discussion about GUI, and here you are changing the focus again. That's why we said you do strawmans the whole time.

 
Wait so when comparing OS's you can only use the GUI?

No, but you started this with saying "Windows is a far better desktop" + "Windows 10 has a far better virtual desktop experience than Linux" without any argument for it. You just told it, and it is right, because you told it! I asked you multiply times, why the Windows 10 virtual desktop is so awesome, I even told you, why I like the virtual desktops of Linux and how my setup handles them, but you responded nothing! You pick the argument, which you think are the easiest to fight against and repeat the myth of the need to compile software all the time - without naming even one software you needed to compile yourself.

Well to start off with it is just smoother and runs better.  Just tried in my Linux install and it is nowhere near as smooth.  The task view is awesome and you can tell which items are on different desktops just by looking at the taskbar and the items which have a small bubble under them so without doing anything except one click you can switch desktops and activate the program just by clicking once on the taskbar.  Takes a little getting used to but it is awesome.

Well I haven't done it for 6 months but I always have to compile something ScreenConnect comes to mind as something I had to compile.  Would you like an up to date list of everything I have to compile as I go along?

I guess that's the only way you would win in your mind by creating these arbitrary rules which have no bearing on anything. I made a comment about the GUI and suddenly I am bound to that in it's entirety? Grow up and stop being so pedantic.  I actually made that comment because to me linux is unbelievable but not when it is used as a desktop rather than a server.  The main difference between a server and a desktop version is the GUI and programs that come bundled in with that.

If you don't want to be bound to an argument: Don't bring it!

Ummmmm that is just silly.  Think really hard about what you have said.

 

[Ziz]

I guess that's the only way you would win in your mind by creating these arbitrary rules which have no bearing on anything. I made a comment about the GUI and suddenly I am bound to that in it's entirety? Grow up and stop being so pedantic.  I actually made that comment because to me linux is unbelievable but not when it is used as a desktop rather than a server.  The main difference between a server and a desktop version is the GUI and programs that come bundled in with that.

If you don't want to be bound to an argument: Don't bring it!

Ummmmm that is just silly.  Think really hard about what you have said.

Did so. And now?

 

[kasp]

Meh pretty sure you guys are just trolling now.


Couldn't be arsed conversing with people like you so yes Linux best thing ever in everything and any day now its going to dominate the desktop space. Open gl smashes dx12 and open source drivers rock.


There you have your answer so might as well close the thread.

 

[WizardStan]

any day now its going to dominate the desktop space

No it's not. Who told you that? Just because it doesn't suck doesn't mean it's going to completely take over. It's been, what, 5 pages of discourse and you didn't cotton on to the one thing that proponents were trying to tell you.

Open gl smashes dx12 and open source drivers rock

Objectively speaking, open source is strictly better for consumers than closed source. An open source driver with the same backing as a closed source driver is just as capable; like literally, if a company with a closed source driver simply released their source code it would still be the exact same driver just now it is capable of more as a wider audience is able to improve it and find/fix bugs.Conflicting opinions on whether it's actually better for the company or not. On the one hand releasing your source means an ultimately improved user experience, but on the other hand it means your competitors now have direct access to your technology and somehow lawyers aren't enough to keep them from copying it or something. There's also the myth that crackers will use the source to find exploits, to balance out the good hackers that are fixing them.

Ultimately there's no real reason to suspect that open source will ever smash closed source, to suggest otherwise is pure hyperbole and, frankly, wrong.

It's my belief that OpenGL will ultimately prevail, not because it's open source, but because it is cross platform: one less thing to worry about when porting between operating systems and consoles.

 

[Askarus]

open source drivers rock

... lack features the official drier has and prevent you from playing games!

It's not that I didn't like it, I just never found it as good as windows in getting my job done as well as gaming

Shut up!

No one here is interested in what you need your Computer for and if Windows fits better to your needs.

Linux is  better!

 

[Klumpen]

Someone here should go to some M$-board and throw in "Linux is superior" without any argument whatsoever, the reactions would be quite similar.

That's not how dialogue works properly.

I'm just an artisan and musician without much knowledge about PCs who needs them to work fast and easy to use, so I'm between the lines here (although I don't find any reason to boot Windows outside of gaming anymore tbh),

but the ethical aproach should always be more important than the practical one for me. The end doesn't justify the means in my book, that's how real change is motivated btw.

 

[Askarus]

but the ethical aproach should always be more important than the practical one

That's why I use only Linux right now and it is the OS of choice for me.

But I don't want to limit myself any more because of that any more.

The components of my Laptop are now 6 Years old and I lack some features because official GPU Driver does not support my old GPU any more.

Maybe Wine will do the job then but because of that I'm more towards a Linux + Windows dual boot setup right now.

 

[fusion_power]

DX12 is primarily a selling point for Windows 10, of course the discussion went in this direction, I guess I'm guilty.

I just don't like such company policies and would have liked to have DX10 for my WinXP or even better more OpenGL games in general.

Sadly, MS will really make DX12 a selling point for Win10, or more precise, they make "Fable Legends" and "Halo 5" Win10 exclussive (besides the console versions). So these games will run only under Win10, which is stupid because there is no technical reason, both have AFAIK also a DX11 renderers and are not really bound to DX12.I guess we should be already happy that we get Halo 5 for the PC (in whatever condition) but of course that should not bethe point of DX12. It could be made for Win 7/8 too imho.

 

[WizardStan]

In other news I installed MINT and for once I don't have to dick around with Xserver to get multi monitors working granted I am not using Nvidias driver yet but theres one headache I don't have to deal with.

I used Mint with a multi monitor setup at least 2 years ago, probably much longer (I can't remember exactly when I switched to Arch but it was before I moved which happened April 2013) and didn't have any trouble at the time. Multi-monitor setups were solved a long time ago. I remember having problems back in university 12 years ago but it has come a long, long way since then.Again, if you were trying stuff just six months ago and encountering problems then you have been cursed because your experiences do not reflect what should have been reality. That you've got it working now is great but there is no reason it shouldn't have been working out of the box 6 months or even 2 years ago.

 

[Askarus]

For Multi Monitor Setup use ARandR.

It's the best GUI I know.

 

[kasp]

any day now its going to dominate the desktop space

No it's not. Who told you that? Just because it doesn't suck doesn't mean it's going to completely take over. It's been, what, 5 pages of discourse and you didn't cotton on to the one thing that proponents were trying to tell you.

Open gl smashes dx12 and open source drivers rock

Objectively speaking, open source is strictly better for consumers than closed source. An open source driver with the same backing as a closed source driver is just as capable; like literally, if a company with a closed source driver simply released their source code it would still be the exact same driver just now it is capable of more as a wider audience is able to improve it and find/fix bugs.
Conflicting opinions on whether it's actually better for the company or not. On the one hand releasing your source means an ultimately improved user experience, but on the other hand it means your competitors now have direct access to your technology and somehow lawyers aren't enough to keep them from copying it or something. There's also the myth that crackers will use the source to find exploits, to balance out the good hackers that are fixing them.


Ultimately there's no real reason to suspect that open source will ever smash closed source, to suggest otherwise is pure hyperbole and, frankly, wrong.


It's my belief that OpenGL will ultimately prevail, not because it's open source, but because it is cross platform: one less thing to worry about when porting between operating systems and consoles.

I am guessing you missed the point of my post which was to just stop debating and say exactly what the zealots wanted to hear.  There is literally zero point debating with them.

 

[Ziz]

There is literally zero point debating with them.

Same for debating with you.

 

[WizardStan]

I am guessing you missed the point of my post which was to just stop debating and say exactly what the zealots wanted to hear.  There is literally zero point debating with them.

Honestly the only zealot I saw was you. You made a wild accusation about the suitability of Linux as a desktop. People stepped up to defend it with evidence and anecdotes. Your responses were things like "average user needing to compile from source" to which you were asked "what did you need to compile"? Because everyone who opposed you agreed that there shouldn't be anything that the average user would be interested in that they'd have to compile from source, and very unlikely even that there wouldn't be an Ubuntu blessed package in the repository even.You're talking about all of these problems that you claim you had but you can't really back them up, they're just memories of things that went wrong at some point, things which we have, again, insisted should not have been problems, things that were solved a long time ago. And yet you claim you had these problems as near as 6 months ago, defending them with zeal against request for more information: it is what it is and you don't need evidence!

No, you're definitely the anti-linux zealot on this one, otherwise you wouldn't have defended such a poor stance.

Maybe you're right, maybe Linux isn't a suitable desktop for the average user, but if that's the case then you shouldn't have to repeat vague complaints about drivers that don't work or missing software, you should be able to point to very specific things: average user should expect software XYZ, user cannot get software XYZ without compiling; that's all it would take to give substance to your arguments.

 

[kasp]

No you're all right its amazing and the only reason free software with awesome drivers and versatility hasn't been utilised iby the general publics is poor marketing and users love forking out cash for inferior products and manufacturers love giving Microsoft cash.

 

[Klumpen]

Honestly the only zealot I saw was you.

What I saw was someone making a statement that looked like from a zealot and some trolling (not to judge if deserved or not) in response.

No you're all right its amazing and the only reason free software with awesome drivers and versatility hasn't been utilised iby the general publics is poor marketing and users love forking out cash for inferior products and manufacturers love giving Microsoft cash.

PCs (including in businesses) are mostly shipped with Windows -> most people use Windows -> Companies support Windows because most customers reachable

That's most of it. The mess with all the different distros isn't such a big problem anymore, since most stuff seems to focus on Debian/Ubuntu by now and that's one of the reasons why things are changing atm (besides MS exceedingly ridiculous business politics), although slowly.

BTW: Android is worse than Windows imho, but this is due to Google and not to the kernel. At least it encourages devs to use OpenGL.

 

[kasp]

How about you actually read what I wrote.  

I asked if anyone else had used windows 10 and showed genuine excitement over it which I quite frankly haven't had since windows 7 and even more than that. Perhaps I was a bit too excited but meh it happens.

I then said that it does some features better than Linux like virtual desktops.

No one came objectively and was like oh yeah I have used it too and I haven't got that impression they all just launched into me asking me to explain and defend what I said with absolutely zero basis of their own.  I explained my reasoning behind the virtual desktops but was still told later on I didn't explain myself and started having goes because I decided not to repeat myself.

Now I have used both windows 10 and Linux so even if I am a windows fan boi (i'm not) I can at least draw a comparison.  Everyone else is showing their zealousness by not even using it and attacking it blindly. This is why the linux community completely sucks, I can't stand being around linux fan bois in IT and I am not the only one.

Now maybe I went a bit far on the defensive but seriously look at how everything transpired.

 

[Klumpen]

The question asked in the topic is leading to such things, because "improvement" is a very relative term and I don't see any improvement with further tying people to Windows without giving them a choice with certain games, let's just hope M$ usual bribing of companies won't be enough this time.

Well, time for a beer?