What're The Terms And Conditions Of Purchase?

[ashdjones]

you were to have such little faith in a company / group of people, why buy their product?

Personally, I do trust the honesty of the people developing the Pandora. All i'm saying is that a scenario very similar to this ended up scamming people of money. I very much doubt it will be happen, but it could happen.

I'm not overly familiar with preordering in general, the way that I knew it was you payed a deposit on the item and not a full amount. Also, you usually pay your deposit to a retailer and not the manufacturer.

I only pointed out the amount of money involved because theoretically, $1 million is an attractive amount for an elaborate scam (theoretically).

 

[Swiss_Cheeseman]

There's a whoooole lotta 'spergin goin on round here.


Don't give them ideas! Now they'll all think their autistic!

Besides, people with Aspergers are generally intelligent are they not? :rolleyes:


People with Aspergers are usually arrogant, self-absorbed and lack tact. This is mostly since they don't understand (or don't care about) social norms. Although they can be "intelligent", generally it's only with a single subject that they focus on.

That is an incredibly broad definition though and there's a lot more to it than that. It's pretty damned annoying that so many people self-diagnose. Look at yourself objectively and see a doctor before spouting your bullshit on the internet for fucks sake.*

*I was going to leave it there but I thought I might clarify that the second paragraph of my rant wasn't directed at Peter R but Self-Diagnosed Aspies.

Getting off topic anyway.

 

[TaG]

To me, the biggest question is: If there is a short in the device or some hardware is not reachable by software cause of bad device drivers or just a wrong board design -
Would I be able to get it replaced with a new one?

If the answer is yes, I have to wonder how the developers are going to "survive" such a situation.
Lets say the grapics chip is in no-way able to run complex scenes because there is a design issue caused by the pandora developers (Just think about the wrong clock-rate of the DS) - now assume 75% (some won't care) of all first-batch-users want their pandora replaced because this problem appears on all units:

3000 * 0.75 = 2250 Devices must be replaced which would cost the developers:
2250 * $330 = $742.500 (!) + Additional fee for new shipping and ordering of fixed devices.

This seems highly unrealistic to me...

Thats why they are testing the mk0's. To assume that 75% of items made get returned is also highly unrealistic. Yes its possible but so it is with any business.

 

[Kayday]

To me, the biggest question is: If there is a short in the device or some hardware is not reachable by software cause of bad device drivers or just a wrong board design -
Would I be able to get it replaced with a new one?

If the answer is yes, I have to wonder how the developers are going to "survive" such a situation.
Lets say the grapics chip is in no-way able to run complex scenes because there is a design issue caused by the pandora developers (Just think about the wrong clock-rate of the DS) - now assume 75% (some won't care) of all first-batch-users want their pandora replaced because this problem appears on all units:

3000 * 0.75 = 2250 Devices must be replaced which would cost the developers:
2250 * $330 = $742.500 (!) + Additional fee for new shipping and ordering of fixed devices.

This seems highly unrealistic to me...

Look up the definition of warranty. It's like you guys act as if you never bought an electronics device before. If you're that much paranoid that something bad will happen, take the wait and see approach.

 

[AireTamStorm]

There is also insurance for things like this...

 

[Chip]

To me, the biggest question is: If there is a short in the device or some hardware is not reachable by software cause of bad device drivers or just a wrong board design -
Would I be able to get it replaced with a new one?

I thought the answer to this was made clear when I said

Faulty units will be replaced.



Craig is a businessman and his shop has been around as long as these boards. Longer, I think. The trust that most of the people here show is trust that he has earned by being a good businessman. If he had a history of screwing over his customers, you would not see the sort of faith in the Pandora project that is evident here. If there are any issues with the design or hardware, they will be set right.

 

[ashdjones]

Craig is a businessman and his shop has been around as long as these boards. Longer, I think. The trust that most of the people here show is trust that he has earned by being a good businessman. If he had a history of screwing over his customers, you would not see the sort of faith in the Pandora project that is evident here. If there are any issues with the design or hardware, they will be set right.

I've been following these boards since the Pandora was announced, and i've picked up on this sentiment quite a lot. For casual onlookers though, I don't think this is evident.

 

[Squidge]

3000 * 0.75 = 2250 Devices must be replaced which would cost the developers:
2250 * $330 = $742.500 (!) + Additional fee for new shipping and ordering of fixed devices.

1) It's not going to cost Craig the amount of cash he's charging for them.
2) For each faulty Pandora replaced, you'll send the faulty one back, so the cost comes down even more.
3) It's not unrealistic to expect all of those to be replaced. If they are faulty, it's law that they will be replaced.

 

[Megamixman]

To me, the biggest question is: If there is a short in the device or some hardware is not reachable by software cause of bad device drivers or just a wrong board design -
Would I be able to get it replaced with a new one?

If the answer is yes, I have to wonder how the developers are going to "survive" such a situation.
Lets say the grapics chip is in no-way able to run complex scenes because there is a design issue caused by the pandora developers (Just think about the wrong clock-rate of the DS) - now assume 75% (some won't care) of all first-batch-users want their pandora replaced because this problem appears on all units:

3000 * 0.75 = 2250 Devices must be replaced which would cost the developers:
2250 * $330 = $742.500 (!) + Additional fee for new shipping and ordering of fixed devices.

This seems highly unrealistic to me...

Board Design and Hardware are being extensively tested. Bad Drivers are not a reason for replacement, since they can be updated. The other thing to remember is that the Pandora is not using custom made SoCs. They are using general parts from major manufacturers. If there is a fault in the parts from those manufacturers, the cost of replacement moves back to them.

If you put the expectation that the Pandora is going to come out of the box as a perfect system with all the emulators, games, and Apps you want, you will be let down. Pandora will not come out perfect. It will be a community project in a community known to put a lot of effort and time into such things and thus it will be constantly get better and evolve. This is something that no major manufacturer can really do.

 

[JayFoxRox]

I think my post appeared in a wrong way, its not that I think its a scam or anything, I only wanted to make sure we are not "hurting" the devs incase something is really non-functional (As it could become a financial disaster to them).

[pessimism]

Kayday: Something like this happened before and it could happen to this too, the thing is that this is not a "big" project by a huge firm which has the ability to "easily" replace all the units.

Chip: No, it was not clear, there is a huge difference between a broken device and a non-functional device.
Examples:
Broken device - My PC breaks after 1 month for unknown reasons
Non-Functional device - My PC works, but some features are not working because a critical component on the mainboard is missing

Squidge: You got a point there , but seeing that it is a complex design I doubt that you can reuse all parts.

Megamixman: Nope, some drivers can not be updated, I once bought a DVD drive which was not able to be re-flashed without hardware changes and it refused to burn to some CDs which were supposed to be working - The whole unit got replaced later. No, I was not thinking about the perfect device at day zero, I m developer myself so I will try to contribute with my own applications (And no, they won't be ready at releasedate neither )

[/pessimism]

 

[Megamixman]

Megamixman: Nope, some drivers can not be updated, I once bought a DVD drive which was not able to be re-flashed without hardware changes and it refused to burn to some CDs which were supposed to be working - The whole unit got replaced later. No, I was not thinking about the perfect device at day zero, I m developer myself so I will try to contribute with my own applications (And no, they won't be ready at releasedate neither )

That is not a driver. That is a PROM on the DVD drive because it contains a micro-controller as do most Optical and Magnetic Drives. The Pandora on the other hand only uses FLASH for its ROM. Therefore it CAN be reprogrammed. There is not a bit of software that can not be changed on the Pandora. Although things like the boot sector might be protected so that they can only be programmed via JTAG,etc. This is pretty standard on modern day flash devices where future software updates were planned.

 

[socket]

Yeah like he said above, that's not a driver....

And anyway, I can't believe people are so concerned about warranties and what not. I mean jeez, it's basically a community homebrew piece of equipment and shit happens. I'm almost definitely pre-ordering and will be happy with it as long as development on it continues. If something goes wrong something goes wrong... I mean, sure if your unit is DOA i'd expect it to be replaced, but having "driver issues" is quite a bizarre concern for such a device. It's basically always going to be in development and people should really understand that. Like was stated already, if you expect a perfect unit with everything working flawlessly please wait and don't buy it right away. This is a toy to tinker with.

 

[waffles]

I would want a warentee if say, the hinge had a defect or the pandora ridiculously overheated or some other weird failing that doesn't fall under DOA. i think a month or two is reasonable.

 

[Pleng]

It seems to me like it might be illegal (don't know, i'm not trading standards).

At least one very similar project to this turned out be a scam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_200LX#Japan

3000 x £200 = £600,000 or $1,119,863




If they were *really* planning to scam, then why would they be waiting until September to start the pre-orders?

It seems to me like it might be illegal (don't know, i'm not trading standards).

The way I think about it is as follows:

There are only 3,000 or so units going to be made. They are going to be sold over the 'net, and you can pre-order them. If all 3,000 are pre-ordered, then there are obviously going to be none available once the device is released.


QUOTE

3) what is the delay between batch 1 and 2?



Unknown. Batch 2 will not be ordered until batch 1 is almost out of stock I would of thought.


The way I see it is this:

The pre-ordering is due to start at the end of September, and the product is due to ship in November.

Some people in other threads are predicting sell-outs within a few days. Now I'm not 100% sure on production line-startup/buildup times but I'm pretty sure that if they *do* sell 3000 units within the first few days, they'll either increase the initial run, or immediately order a second run (using the cash generated from the sale of the first 3000).

If it takes a couple of weeks for the first batch to sell out (ie the Pandora STILL has two to three weeks to go before shipping), then I guess there'll be a couple of weeks delay between the first and second batch. But that shouldn't really be an issue as the demand is not too high.

The pre-ordering system is a very clever way of ensuring that the company always has enough capital to ensure a pretty consistent supply of Pandys. The only risk of large delays between runs is if the first batch of Pandys do not sell out (or nearly sell out) until after the pre-orders have finished and they start shipping.

 

[Squidge]

There is not a bit of software that can not be changed on the Pandora.

Actually, there is, but it'll never be executed under normal usage (or at least, a very small amount of it will run), so it shouldn't be a problem.

I would want a warentee if say, the hinge had a defect or the pandora ridiculously overheated or some other weird failing that doesn't fall under DOA. i think a month or two is reasonable.

'hinge defect' or 'overheating' would be faulty components or a fault during manufacturing. Both cases would be covered by 12 months minimum. However, if the overheating occured because you left it in your pants pocket and those got washed, or because you dropped it, or threw it out of a window when you couldn't beat a certain game, it might be difficult to prove manufacturing defect.

 

[P-J]

Faulty units will be replaced.


No need to act like they have any choice. If they sell a faulty unit, they will be bound by law to replace it.

Sale of goods act.

 

[Megamixman]

Actually, there is, but it'll never be executed under normal usage (or at least, a very small amount of it will run), so it shouldn't be a problem.

I'm assuming that bit has to do with the wifi chip? AFAIK, all ROM on the 3530 can be reprogrammed while active. The only exception would be if the devs set the lock bits for certain sectors such as a boot sector or failsafe de-brick boot. Even in this case, these can be reprogrammed via JTAG.

 

[Squidge]

I don't think the bootloader in the OMAP can be reprogrammed, but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Megamixman]

I don't think the bootloader in the OMAP can be reprogrammed, but correct me if I'm wrong.

It has to be. U-boot is the pretty much the defacto now for Linux on embedded devices, but Windows CE has it's own bootloader.

 

[Squidge]

It has to be. U-boot is the pretty much the defacto now for Linux on embedded devices, but Windows CE has it's own bootloader.

Erm, I think your getting confused.

The start sequence is: Bootloader -> XLoader -> UBoot -> Linux.

AFAIK, only the last 3 can be updated/changed.