What Would You Recommend?

[gaterooze]

The things you can do with the ARM940T coprocessor are very limited due to how it's attached to the bus.

Do you feel a little silly after seeing this news?

http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...mp;#entry473748

This is definitivelly false to state that the 940 can not handle rendering because of low RAM bandwidth.

 

[Epicenter]

I though ffvii was close to playable. I'm not sure about your statement. If they end up redoing emulator from the ground up, and as in ur scenario using the second core, then i see no reason it couldn't run at playable speeds. Dont be a hateful dreamcrusher all the time.

I'm not crushing dreams, I'm preventing unrealistically getting one's hopes up. Rebuilding an emulator from the ground up doesn't make the impossible possible. Rewriting SquidgeSNES' graphics emulation code from the ground up in pure ARM ASM would dramatically improve performance, probably send it through the roof. But that's because it's slow C code from an older emulator that wasn't made to run on this machine. PSX4ALL is already full of highly optimized code-- it's not by its very nature sluggish, so starting over on the entire emulator isn't going to provide magical enormous performance gains. I also highly doubt that Zodttd and Una-i would like to just drop all their hard work and 'start over'.

Do you feel a little silly after seeing this news?

http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showt...mp;#entry473748

I don't. The rendering performance isn't up to the task. I'm sure it can improve, but it has to improve enormously. GLXGears is probably drawing around 100-200 polygons, probably less, per frame. A playstation game will be drawing many hundreds, or thousands, and most people would consider 0-40 FPS unsatisfactory, myself included. I would probably not be happy with <45 FPS at a minimum, really. That's quite a high bar to meet.

It's an accomplishment getting it to work on the 940T. However, the bigger issue isn't that the 940T has 'limited RAM bandwidth', it's that when it accesses RAM, it is getting in the 920T's way. You also usually need to feed data to it by way of code running on the 920T. In a program that has some simple game logic and the bigger task is rendering, this is fine. On an emulator like this one, where CPU, GTE, Audio and other emulation tasks will occupy 100% of the ARM920T's cycles, relegating tasks to the 940T and babysitting it will decrease the performance of other aspects of emulation. Remember, that's a 32 MHz 32-bit MIPS processor, and the GTE's tasks are demanding Floating point/Vector math, which the ARM9x0T's aren't suited for at all.

You can talk to me about how 'silly' I should feel when there's something more to show than preliminary research. But do not go getting your hopes up expecting incredible PSX performance- you will be disappointed. PSX4All shows much more promise on different platforms, as does any program with a heavy 3D/Floating Point workload.

 

[J201605]

whatever you say dream crusher. If you read the psx forum you would know that they are considering "dropping all there hard work" and starting over, though of course they would use what they had already learned, so it wouldn't be dropping all there work. Infact this quote from zodttd is about just that... "I'm unsure of the status of psx4all right now... The roadmap from what I can see, shows that psx4all is in a huge need of a "start-over" and build it with the knowledge gained from our expierences so far. That means a lot of time and effort. I will talk to Unai, especially, and see if we can do it."

 

[Epicenter]

start over != 60 FPS in FFVII :rolleyes:

All the hopes and dreams in the world don't make the impossible possible. Read up and gain more of a technical proficiency of how PSX Emulation has to operate and the hardware that is in the GP2X and you'll understand and agree with me that it's not a feasible task. It's impressive that it got as far as it did.

 

[DaveC]

I will have to do something I don't normally do..agree with Epicenter.

Jackd: CPUs aren't magic. They can only cycle a limited amount of transistors a limited number of times per second. There comes a time when you just don't have enough speed and bandwith to perform a task. One such task would be to have PSX run at a good speed with sound. Even if you could run the second core full speed as in it had it's own RAM it STILL wouldn't be enough. The best you can hope for is that SOME simpler games would be marginally playable with sound. It is not a matter of "believing" or "dreaming" it is a matter of physics.

We don't even have *SNES* running full speed with transparencies and that is way simpler than a PSX with it's weak 2 MHz 8 bit CPU and lack of a 3D polygon chip

 

[gaterooze]

You can talk to me about how 'silly' I should feel when there's something more to show than preliminary research. But do not go getting your hopes up expecting incredible PSX performance

I'm not talking about the PSX, I'm quite aware it will never work at a great speed. I was referring only to your pathological insistance that the 940 is effectively useless, despite talented folks proving you wrong.

 

[J201605]

I will have to do something I don't normally do..agree with Epicenter.

Jackd: CPUs aren't magic. They can only cycle a limited amount of transistors a limited number of times per second. There comes a time when you just don't have enough speed and bandwith to perform a task. One such task would be to have PSX run at a good speed with sound. Even if you could run the second core full speed as in it had it's own RAM it STILL wouldn't be enough. The best you can hope for is that SOME simpler games would be marginally playable with sound. It is not a matter of "believing" or "dreaming" it is a matter of physics.

We don't even have *SNES* running full speed with transparencies and that is way simpler than a PSX with it's weak 2 MHz 8 bit CPU and lack of a 3D polygon chip

I didn't claim that the second core would make it a lot more effective, epicenter said that ff7 specifically wouldn't be playable even if we used the second core and rebuilt the emulator and i am saying that specifically ff7 would most likely become playable in this scenario, i never said that I think this scenario will happen. I suppose it depends on your definition of playable, but i think that it is very possible that a game like ff7 could be playable for me, it all depends what happens, i cant predict the future, i just wouldn't rule out the possibility.

 

[Epicenter]

You can talk to me about how 'silly' I should feel when there's something more to show than preliminary research. But do not go getting your hopes up expecting incredible PSX performance

I'm not talking about the PSX, I'm quite aware it will never work at a great speed. I was referring only to your pathological insistance that the 940 is effectively useless, despite talented folks proving you wrong.

Any way you look at it, from an engineering standpoint, the ARM940T is miserably crippled and cannot live up to its true potential with MagicEyes' deranged implementation of the chip into their SoC. Even the most skilled developers will still struggle to get this chip to do something useful, but it also acts as a detterent to make developers not want to bother. Sure, the Sega Saturn had awesome potential, far more than the Playstation did, arguably. But its design made its power useless to all but a few persons who had the skill and dedication to follow through with writing code for a machine that seemed to actively refuse to be developed for and fight against the efforts of programmers rather than help them to unlock their abilities like a good development platform should.

If you require more proof, try writing a simple program that uses both processors effectively and then let me know how it goes. I have a feeling your mouth will have an unpleasant foot aftertaste.

I didn't claim that the second core would make it a lot more effective, epicenter said that ff7 specifically wouldn't be playable even if we used the second core and rebuilt the emulator and i am saying that specifically ff7 would most likely become playable in this scenario, i never said that I think this scenario will happen. I suppose it depends on your definition of playable, but i think that it is very possible that a game like ff7 could be playable for me, it all depends what happens, i cant predict the future, i just wouldn't rule out the possibility.

If you consider 1/3 of the game's original speed or slower to be 'playable', then maybe FFVII will be 'playable'. I would call a pretty futile endeavor, albeit a technically impressive one, it's just not destined to reach fruition on the GP2X. It's not at all suited for the job.

 

[gaterooze]

If you require more proof, try writing a simple program that uses both processors effectively and then let me know how it goes. I have a feeling your mouth will have an unpleasant foot aftertaste.

I can't write any program at all, but others have:

Exhibit a) Notaz's PicoDrive.
Exhibit B) rixed's gpu940.

Proving that it just takes skill to make effective use of both processors, and it is most certainly achievable.

That's my whole point. You deny that? Boot up PicoDrive, and then say it.

 

[messiah]

imho, portable NEO-GEO emulation is worth alone to buy a GP2X...

 

[semyaza]

Not posted for a while...again.

Anway, to OP; I havn't touched my gp2x in a while but a quick check in the news section reveals all. So now I have the Payback demo which is an excellent showcase for the gp2x. You really need to learn to experiment a little by yourself. Just throw stuff on the gp2x and have a look and keep what you like. You say you used to play the nes and sega emulators. You mean you have played all of the games available. I have *ahem* a DVD crammed with sega and snes games and I am still discovering things to play. Either you have too much time or you are just another victim of this stupid consumerist society.

I don't understand emphasis about psx emulation. It wasn't one of the marketing things mentioned the gp2x could do when I bought mine. I got the gp2x for nostalgic reasons as well as a versatile handheld. Yes it's great that some excellent hackers are doing this but you can't put your expectations on a machine that may or may not be able to do it. There's dreaming and there's reality. Seeing what a good opengl library can do and what Payback has achieved is one thing but expecting to be able to translate code from one system to another and achieve the same framerates is another.

Epicenter: What happened to your project? You have dropped it from your sig. I was looking forward to that

 

[Epicenter]

Epicenter: What happened to your project? You have dropped it from your sig. I was looking forward to that

We're still working on it but it probably will be geared toward the XGP series, not GP2X. I still expect to do a simple GP2X port though. Also a version that runs on any decent X86 PC.

Proving that it just takes skill to make effective use of both processors, and it is most certainly achievable.

That's my whole point. You deny that? Boot up PicoDrive, and then say it.

My reference stands. Skilled programmers made excellent use of the Saturn, but only a few games were ever completed to a degree that fully utilized its capabilities, or came close-- due to what a difficult task it was. This is why only one program makes real effective use of both CPUs. A test library does not count as a finished product, so we're looking at .. just PicoDrive. You might count Vektar too, as it plays audio using the 940T to decode Vorbis data. So, that's 2 programs. Out of how many? ..

 

[gaterooze]

Therefore, if you admit such feats are possible, the hardware is not completely "broken," as you are wont to claim.

The GP2X's potential is only beginning to be unlocked.

edit: are those snow cones floating around with Ecco in your avatar?

 

[Redeeman]

<snip>
one program makes real effective use of both CPUs. A test library does not count as a finished product, so we're looking at .. just PicoDrive. You might count Vektar too, as it plays audio using the 940T to decode Vorbis data. So, that's 2 programs. Out of how many? ..

one might say, 2 programs, out of how many that really needs more computing power? i think you will find the ratio are not so grim anymore.

 

[ninja_sauce]

Yus - i dont quite understand all the doomsaying here either - we have seen nothing but progress with the gp2x and the talented coders here. Folding arms and shaking heads and going "no, no, no" doesnt seem to serve much purpose, especially as programers keep on proving a lot of this wrong.

As for sugestions, im currently getting through earthbound on the snes - which is just a terrific little game and my girlfriend is particularly partial to "hello kitty happy party pals" on the vba, which is running pretty much full speed.

let's look back a few months and read some people saying gameboy advance would never be able to run full speed....

 

[Epicenter]

Therefore, if you admit such feats are possible, the hardware is not completely "broken," as you are wont to claim.

The GP2X's potential is only beginning to be unlocked.

No, we've seen most of the GP2X's potential already, it's just that most homebrew doesn't take full advantage of the ARM920T CPU's capabilities due to unoptimized code, so the games could stand to get more intense and immersive. (Although more of the focus these days is on emulation, not new games.) The real bottleneck is NOT the CPU, it's the blitter. GPH laughably called it a '2D accelerator'; it does little more than copy memory about, and is a very simplistic affair, so you will never see the kind of absurd performance you would from a true 2D GPU, e.g. the ability to draw hundreds or thousands of sprites per frame with a consistently high framerate.

For most intents and purposes, the ARM940T's interface is broken, due to the lack of an MMU, dedicated memory (or at least enough bandwidth to support it, which isn't present). That doesn't mean some use can't be made of it, but the applications where it will work are few and far between-- and very difficult to get working. Most programmers struggle to think of something it'll be good at due to the memory situation and its tiny cache preventing substantial amounts of code from executing out of it to decrease babysitting by the 920T. So the real focus needs to be on the 920T for most programs, and what you can squeeze out of it with optimized, efficient, fast code.

let's look back a few months and read some people saying gameboy advance would never be able to run full speed....

It still doesn't, especially not with sound. It's possible, though, I never doubted that. In fact a lot of people didn't believe me when I said it WAS possible. So, that's probably a very bad example to use.

us - i dont quite understand all the doomsaying here either - we have seen nothing but progress with the gp2x and the talented coders here. Folding arms and shaking heads and going "no, no, no" doesnt seem to serve much purpose, especially as programers keep on proving a lot of this wrong.

It is possible to waste one's time if a cause is futile. For example, I'd never recommend anyone work on an N64 emulator for the system-- they'd be throwing away their free time on something that won't ever work correctly, and all the optimism and hopefulness in the world won't change that.

edit: are those snow cones floating around with Ecco in your avatar?

Yep. On SomethingAwful the image is captioned, 'Welcome to the Sno-Cone machine'. It's an inside joke derived from the prototype version of Ecco the Dolphin 2. One dolphin says, 'Come with me Ecco, I know where is the cave'. I modified this text to read, 'I know where is the sno-cone machine'. The stage you see in my avatar is from Ecco 1's level, "Welcome to the Machine". That's the bizarre inside joke in its entirety.

 

[Shaun]

They're some good recommendations, thanks. I wish I had more time to reply right now but I've gotta go to the bank and I have no connection at home. I'll make sure I download some of them tomorrow. The Payback demo was okay; a good technical feat but a bit of a cheap clone with an awful soundtrack to be honest. I don't want to slag the creators off - it looks okay. It's just that I could get better commerical games for the NDS.

You can all feel free to continue your pointless FFVII debate! You say it'll never happen, but we've seen some real magic happen here. There's in point in speculation... we may as well wait and see. That said, do you think the XGP would emulate it? That's out soon, right? (No, I haven't kept up with the news on that device.)

p.s. Oh yeah, about the joystick cap. Like I said, before it came off, it always had a clicked-in state, and then it came off. I can use it without the cap but it's not exactly comfortable... I can put the cap back on (but loosely), but it still has the clicked-in state. The games I'll download, yes, but it will be far easier to play them if I sort out this issue. It's really annoying sometimes too, because if the cap is on when I turn on the GP2X, it loads the last game run on the alternate frontend (it launches things when you click in the stick).

 

[Shikaku]

edit: are those snow cones floating around with Ecco in your avatar?

Yep. On SomethingAwful the image is captioned, 'Welcome to the Sno-Cone machine'. It's an inside joke derived from the prototype version of Ecco the Dolphin 2. One dolphin says, 'Come with me Ecco, I know where is the cave'. I modified this text to read, 'I know where is the sno-cone machine'. The stage you see in my avatar is from Ecco 1's level, "Welcome to the Machine". That's the bizarre inside joke in its entirety.

.. WHAT. THE. FUCK.

 

[vampire8bit]

a) Send your unit back to get fixed before the warranty runs out. Postage will only be a few quid, probably the cost of a couple of pints. You said you haven't used it for weeks anyway, so "not having it for weeks" is hardly a valid excuse.

B) If you come here to whine about no new releases, but then reveal you're too lazy to have even searched for a GB emulator (Gnuboy, btw) and have never tried MAME, then... I'm not sure what you expect. Use the archive, there's a hell of a lot of stuff in there to play with. I now have about two-dozen homebrew games permanently on my SD that I consider excellent, and a stack more on my HD that I tried & liked.

Ah screw it, in the name of spreading homebrew love, here's a list of some really good stuff:

Beat2x
Beats Of Rage
Bubble Train
Bunny Traps
CDogs
Chuckie Egg
Crimson Fields
Cyberhockey
Deal Or No Deal
Duke2x
Extender
Exult
Flashback
Flobopuyo
Freedroid
Gorilaz
Heroes
Hexahop
HexBattle2X
Kobo Deluxe
Ladykiller
MadMix
Nebulus
Nethack (Dzz's)
Noiz2sa
Pez
Poker2x
Powermanga
Quake
Sand
Sokoban
Spout
S-Tris2
Super Methane Brothers
The Minigame Project
Tilematch
Transport Tycoon
Vektar
Xump
Zooov

As for emulators:

PC Engine -- hu6280, GP2XEngine, CPCE
GP2XSpectrum
c64 -- Frodo, VICE
Gnuboy
RACE (NeoGeo Pocket)
SquidgSNES 0.39 (Notaz's excellent continuation)
PicoDrive (DRMDX is still great though)
Amiga -- UAE4ALL and GnoSTiC's UAE2X
OutcaST (Atari ST)
NES -- GPFCE and FishyNES
ScummVM 0.9.1 (LucasArts games)
Alexkidd2x (SMS)
MAME
GNGeo (Neo Geo)
Caprice (Amstrad CPC)

Get your joystick fixed, then play 'til your fingers bleed

very impressive collection of emulators, also atari 800 and 2600 (stella), but I'm surprised and disapointed
we don't have a decent MSX/MSX2 emulator yet, is there anyone working on one?

 

[gaterooze]

I'm surprised and disapointed
we don't have a decent MSX/MSX2 emulator yet, is there anyone working on one?

There is one, but I haven't gotten around to trying it out yet. I too hope that it, or another one, will be worked on more. fMSX was one of my fave emus on GP32.