What game or feature are you excited to try out on the Pyra?

[Majin Wamu]

Good. Now move you picture on the screen using the Keyboard. You'll need to setup a while loop, and pump the SDL_Event to get keypressed. Once you have done that, handling of Mouse/Joystick is quite easy and just a different kind of event type.

Yeah but gosh, with so much error handling, making one loop is like making a paragraph. When I was making games with BASIC it was so simple. Making things with SDL is like writing an essay haha. But I will catch on. Thank you for the support! How are arrays in SDL? Do they require as much as JAVA and BASIC require or is it just as scary as making a function in SDL?

Hmmm. Array is C++ or C ob. Not SDL. And note that you can use SDL in JAVA or BASIC.

Also, you should try qb64, and it run on the Pandora too (look here for detail on how to install & use it), if you like Basic (you can do games with it, look at the samples or this PND). Or PandaBAS for a different kind of Basic.

Also, I think a @mod should split this conversation from the initial thread...

Yeah sorry I guess we got a bit off topic. No more. I will just send private messages for now.

 

[mcobit]

What would be the benefit of 8GB? There will be a 32bit processor.

 

[Yoyobuae]

Pandora (and maybe Pyra too) is not configured with swap by default, so running out of memory will simply cause the system to freeze

 
Certainly not freeze. The Linux kernel does not freeze when running out of memory. This is not the standard behavior at all.

What happens when a software runs out of memory: if the software is cleanly done, it kills itself nicely, if not, it Segfault. No freeze involved.

I was oversimplifying a bit. Yes, the kernel won't freeze. Yes, programs are supposed to handle out-of-memory condition gracefully. But in reality they don't.

I used a Linux laptop for a while with very low amounts of ram (384MB) and small swap (due to small HDD). Several times it ran completely out of RAM and swap space. Programs didn't close nor segfault, their UI became sluggish first and latter just froze.

I did try to switch to a different virtual console to kill off the offending program, but since memory was so full even the shell program had trouble starting. Sometimes I did manage to log in and manualy kill the program, which allowed the UI to become responsive again.

More recently when compiling stuff on Samsung ARM Chromebook (2GB RAM running without swap) it ran out of memory. Same story, UI became slow first then froze completely. Switched to virtual console and tried to log in, no dice, shell wouldn't run.

In theory a Linux system should handle out-of-memory condition better but in practice it doesn't happen. That's why Android implemented their own system to deal with it.

What would be the benefit of 8GB? There will be a 32bit processor.

Exactly what I was wondering, but Wikipedia page for OMAP5 claims it supports 8GB (maybe it can handle 4GB per channel or something).

 

[sebt3]

I used a Linux laptop for a while with very low amounts of ram (384MB) and small swap (due to small HDD). Several times it ran completely out of RAM and swap space. Programs didn't close nor segfault, their UI became sluggish first and latter just froze.

I did try to switch to a different virtual console to kill off the offending program, but since memory was so full even the shell program had trouble starting. Sometimes I did manage to log in and manualy kill the program, which allowed the UI to become responsive again.

More recently when compiling stuff on Samsung ARM Chromebook (2GB RAM running without swap) it ran out of memory. Same story, UI became slow first then froze completely. Switched to virtual console and tried to log in, no dice, shell wouldn't run.

In theory a Linux system should handle out-of-memory condition better but in practice it doesn't happen. That's why Android implemented their own system to deal with it.

Once there is no more memory, there is no more memory. Where do you want it to pump it ?

Sure windows does one thing linux dont : it increase it's swap space thuss actually create more virtual memory. But once that partition run out of space.... Blue screen

Would you please point me to some documentation about the magical memory creator android use ?

I for one see swap usage as a problem per see : I'm now far from using my machine at maximum perfomance the rest of the system could go. Hey, I know I need less than 2G of memory while in normal yet I bought a 4GB machine so I have over 2G of file cache for better perfs. Using swap mean, there is no more buffer cache, the kernel cannot reorg pages for perf. ouch just this is a too large hit for me. Not counting that the program still run using only physsical memory, so for each process swap, the kernel need to put the other process to swap (hence large slow down due to disk writes) et read the next process memory from disk to be able to start it... Now, read about disk IO lattency and you'll get how bad swap is.

 

[Yoyobuae]

Would you please point me to some documentation about the magical memory creator android use ?

Android apps in background can be closed by the system at any time. Apps are expected to save any persistent data they need to save when they are asked to close. When restarted the apps load up the saved data to restore the state they were in before.
So when Android runs out of memory it simply closes some apps.

 

[rygD]

Wow, this thread got long.

Also, I think a @mod should split this conversation from the initial thread...

Yes, please.

Here are a couple of scenarios where I, perhaps foolishly, think RAM might help me out:

Linux (distros vary, but usually with KDE), web browser with many tabs, sometimes another browser with a few tabs, a large .pdf or two, trying to view or edit documents or various other office stuff.  Sometimes running various networking and security tools.  3GB.

Windows 7, browser with a handful of tabs, running a VM or two, plus the PDFs and other files and software from above, plus frequently copying or moving files to external HDDs.  8GB.  Usually everything is fine with 1 VM, sometimes it is ok with 2, but around 3 it starts weeping, and if I go for more it just curls up into a ball and starts bawling for a while.

I can give more details as needed, when I can verify.  The reason for all the browser tabs and PDFs is research and reference.  The VMs are for testing things.  

At present I am stuck with what I have for the Linux box.  What is listed is how I would like to use the Pyra, and more would be beneficial. 

Since I cannot change anything about the Windows box I usually try to limit the number of VMs I am running, but I frequently need more than one.  When possible I will use more than one host on the same network.

 

[Majin Wamu]

Here are a couple of scenarios where I, perhaps foolishly, think RAM might help me out:

Linux (distros vary, but usually with KDE), web browser with many tabs, sometimes another browser with a few tabs, a large .pdf or two, trying to view or edit documents or various other office stuff.  Sometimes running various networking and security tools.  3GB.

Windows 7, browser with a handful of tabs, running a VM or two, plus the PDFs and other files and software from above, plus frequently copying or moving files to external HDDs.  8GB.  Usually everything is fine with 1 VM, sometimes it is ok with 2, but around 3 it starts weeping, and if I go for more it just curls up into a ball and starts bawling for a while.

I can give more details as needed, when I can verify.  The reason for all the browser tabs and PDFs is research and reference.  The VMs are for testing things.  

At present I am stuck with what I have for the Linux box.  What is listed is how I would like to use the Pyra, and more would be beneficial. 

Since I cannot change anything about the Windows box I usually try to limit the number of VMs I am running, but I frequently need more than one.  When possible I will use more than one host on the same network.

Wow you sure can run a lot at one time. I must be a simple user because I normally just run one thing at a time. If I have my web browser up, I have several tabs open but the most I do is when I am coding a project I have YouTube or some video running right next to my IDE window :^p haha I guess I don't really take advantage of my computer's full potential. :^p

 

[levi]

Is it true that RAM can ware out over time? I once read that RAM can ware out since it is constantly writing, and rewriting, much like how a USB card has a limited amount of deletes.

RAM is way more resistant than flash based memory, because it's not "solid state" - so it has way more robustness in terms of write cycles. I think the key issue with the RAM is not the number of cycles but the robustness of the electronic components used. Sooner or later after years and years of usage there is something that is bound to fail. While solid state memory has clearly a physical limit attached to the number of write cycles. 

FWIW, both dynamic RAM and flash RAM are solid state - that's an old term which denotes that something doesn't have any mechanical moving parts, and neither of them do (they both operate via the charge saturation of transistors).  The difference between DRAM and flash RAM is the latter's voltatile while the former is not, and gets wiped out if you cut power (or fail to refresh it often enough).  In flash, to erase a block, flash needs a high voltage which these days most chips (and all SD cards) generate internally.  Either the circuitry to generate that high voltage can fail, or the cells can fail due to being erased too many times.  I don't completely understand how the cells fail - I guess it's charge leakage destroying some insulators or something.  DRAM can fail in the same way any integrated circuit can fail, due to being run too hot, or just through background radiation nuking it, although it'd take a very long time for that sort of damage to accumulate.

Most flash controllers mitigate against wear by wear levelling however, so in practice you'll only lose a little space once you've written to a significicant portion of it something like the requisite hundred thousand times or so.  They also mitigate against read disturbances, where the act of reading can affect adjacent bits, so your SD card will actually be being erased and rewritten even if you only read from it, albeit very infrequently.

Turning to hard discs, I've never had one fail due to the stepper motor which controls the head failing (actually, I think it's usually a PLLed analogue motor most of the time).  I've had the drive motor which spins up the heavy disc fail on very old units, and had heads crash due to mechanical shock while the head was over the discs (and not parked).  I've had bearings seize on old unused units too, but never a stepper motor fail due to overuse.

 

[rygD]

Wow you sure can run a lot at one time. I must be a simple user because I normally just run one thing at a time. If I have my web browser up, I have several tabs open but the most I do is when I am coding a project I have YouTube or some video running right next to my IDE window :^p haha I guess I don't really take advantage of my computer's full potential. :^p

My browsing alone can bring down performance on some weaker/older computers if I am working on a couple things.  At present this browser has 25 tabs open.  This is down from 80 or so the other day, with only 3 of the current ones being older than 24 hours, and they are related to styli stuff.  Also, I have a small pdf up.  Oh, yeah, yakuake is running back there.  A few other things also, I am sure.

 

[Yoyobuae]

At some point I stopped closing tabs

And there's more tabs in other Tab Groups. The number on the lower right is the tab number and total number of tabs (ie. 509).

FWIW, both dynamic RAM and flash RAM are solid state - that's an old term which denotes that something doesn't have any mechanical moving parts, and neither of them do (they both operate via the charge saturation of transistors).  The difference between DRAM and flash RAM is the latter's voltatile while the former is not, and gets wiped out if you cut power (or fail to refresh it often enough).  In flash, to erase a block, flash needs a high voltage which these days most chips (and all SD cards) generate internally.  Either the circuitry to generate that high voltage can fail, or the cells can fail due to being erased too many times.  I don't completely understand how the cells fail - I guess it's charge leakage destroying some insulators or something...

From what I remember, damage happens because charge (electrons) gets stuck inside the insulators. Non-volatile memory works by storing charge inside a "floating gate", so stray charge in the insulator would eventually cause the memory cell to become unusable.

 

[TrashyMG]

I don't usually keep more than 10 tabs open at once.

 

[levi]

I've got about 60 open currently. I should really migrate some of the to bookmarks, they've been there that long (and so infrequently used), but they're the sort of thing that I just have to do something about and then I'll never need them again.

 

[Yoyobuae]

I've already migrated most of my tabs to bookmarks (probably had a few thousand tabs before :lol: ). Firefox was starting to get weird, sometimes the UI display would freeze but still be able to respond to clicks. :blink:

 

[TrashyMG]

I generally don't bookmark much.. I generally find the site by the autocomplete in the browsers address bar history. And most of the time I don't even have more than 5 tabs open as more seems like unnecessary clutter.

 

[Askarus]

@ Ram discussion: OMAP 5 can use up to 8 GB of ram.

(Do Google search)

 

[Yoyobuae]

Yeah, with PAE it can support more than 4GB:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-A15_MPCore#Chips

 

[matzesu]

Wonder how many times i can run an Gameboy Emulator on the Pyra..

Hopefully Openmorrowind will work..

 

[rygD]

I've already migrated most of my tabs to bookmarks (probably had a few thousand tabs before :lol: ). Firefox was starting to get weird, sometimes the UI display would freeze but still be able to respond to clicks. :blink:

Yeah, I had that sort of stuff when I had a lot with Firefox.  I prefer Opera for most stuff, and it works better for me than FF with the same quantity.  It will freeze up occasionally but that is usually followed quickly by the general issues I mentioned earlier.

Wonder how many times i can run an Gameboy Emulator on the Pyra..

You can never have too much Game Boy!

 

[Majin Wamu]

I don't usually keep more than 10 tabs open at once.

Same here and I do the same with the autocompete. I don't keep a bunch of tabs open because they just too messy for me and I don't use them.

 

[rygD]

With a fresh browser and a single tab I will easily get 5 or 10 tabs reading a news story while doing fact checking and looking at other reports of the same incident, historical information, etc. I don't always keep hundreds of tabs up.  If I end up with a lot of tabs related to the same thing I will sometimes save that session.  I usually stack tabs if I start having problems finding what I am looking for.

I don't know what most people do while web browsing, but there are still people out there who open a new window instead of a tab...talk about messy.  That is how I started a long time ago, and I was very happy when I got tabs.