War in Ukraine

[netcat]

So Zelensky is a hero but his country is being destroyed and people slaughtered. I can't help but think that arming civilians offers little advantage against Russia. It seems like a PR stunt.

Actually I think resistance is the wrong strategy. It only makes sense in hopes of NATO eventually get involved, which I'm sorry to say doesn't make sense for a strategically insignificant country to the West.

I don't know how penalising economic sanctions really are to Putin himself, the richest man the world. I'm completely against Western military engagement. Stakes too high.

Let Russia take Ukraine.

All this bullshit from Biden about Putin causing more chaos. Dude. Ukraine is of unique strategic importance to Russia alone. Just look at a map. The bordering countries are all NATO already so we don't have that much to fear.

We should sacrifice Ukraine to relative poverty in exchange for cooling the situation and ending the bloodshed fast.

 

[Confuzzled]

Video of police in Russia taking away protesters, with odd markings on their vests.
View attachment 37863

The Cyrillic letter 'H' stands for pretty much the same sound as the Latin letter 'N'; and I suspect it is an acronym.

It turns out that someone has mirror-reversed the image. OMOH (Cyrillic) is the acronym for 'Special Purpose Mobile Unit' (ОМОН – Отряд Мобильный Особого Назначения).

Please don't spread misinformation, even as a joke.

 

[TeDaDeS]

So Zelensky is a hero but his country is being destroyed and people slaughtered. I can't help but think that arming civilians offers little advantage against Russia. It seems like a PR stunt.

Actually I think resistance is the wrong strategy. It only makes sense in hopes of NATO eventually get involved, which I'm sorry to say doesn't make sense for a strategically insignificant country to the West.

I don't know how penalising economic sanctions really are to Putin himself, the richest man the world. I'm completely against Western military engagement. Stakes too high.

Let Russia take Ukraine.

All this bullshit from Biden about Putin causing more chaos. Dude. Ukraine is of unique strategic importance to Russia alone. Just look at a map. The bordering countries are all NATO already so we don't have that much to fear.

We should sacrifice Ukraine to relative poverty in exchange for cooling the situation fast.

I'm divided on this.

Say there would be a bully in your street, and he would demand you buy him a beer each time you go do groceries, else he'll hit you.
The easiest thing would be to comply, he has his beer and you don't get hit.
But it will continue for a long time, it's an investment from your side but it's relatively cheap compared to an injury.
There is a risk the cost increase over time: he might demand beers for his friends, or the complete content of your wallet.

If you, on the first confrontation, raise the stakes for the bully by offering resistance and a fight he might still have your wallet and you might be beaten-up.
But if he has to do this each day he'll probably find it to much of a hassle, possibly making it stop. And with a bit of luck you beat the bully, he's just a person to.

Ukraine is no match for Russia, but at least they can make the cost so high they'll either regret their choice and possibly stop or at least think twice before doing something similar.

 

[pyrat]

I'm a pacifist, so I can hardly justify anyone giving weapons away (or selling them). But then there's self defense. If I had to criticize something from Zelensky it wouldn't be that he's giving arms to civilians. It'd be that he's not letting men 18-60 to leave their country. It's discriminatory by gender and age, and it's condemning people to death for no reason. That those who want to stay and help, or even fight are given means, it's understandable. That those that may not want to fight are forced to, I don't understand. And I certainly wouldn't like to fight side by side with someone that was forced to fight. I even think that if Ukraine would allow men to flee, not many would (most women, children and elders stay, after all, despite those leaving being still a whole lot).
@netcat may be right that resistance is futile and all that. But that's not for @netcat or me to decide. Ukranians have the right to decide whether they want to risk a likely death instead of a lousy life. Each one for themselves not ones for the others.
And they may just want to leave their Russian brothers time to get rid of Putin (which I doubt will be fast enough).
Zelensky's government has offered any Russian soldier who defects 42000€ or so and amnesty. That's more clever than fighting, but may not be good enough (soldiers may fear for their families back home, their own fate when caught or whatever, but I doubt they understand why are they fighting to begin with, although I guess when one asks himself that any often one doesn't become soldier).

 

[netcat]

I'm divided on this.

me too. totally. another day another opinion (from me)

 

[TeDaDeS]

That those that may not want to fight are forced to...

I'm not sure if they actually do. There are already too many volunteers for that part, so I guess there will be some kind of selection based on skills.
I think they are made to do other stuff so trained army personnel can fight and civilians do supporting tasks.

 

[FBnil]

A bit of dry, but interesting, Geopolitics:

 

[FBnil]

news: Nord Stream 2 operator declares bankruptcy

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2022-03-01/nord-stream-2-lays-off-employees-amid-reports-of-bankruptcy

I better turn down the heat... tariffs will be insanely high...

Post automatically merged: Mar 2, 2022

For news, use the radio:

http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/

use the logbook to search for a frequency
Or click around with the triangle.
Use autonotch to improve audio.

I found some repeating digital data send at 8941.52 kHz (like the C64 / ZX Spectrum did)

 

[netcat]

@netcat may be right that resistance is futile and all that. But that's not for @netcat or me to decide. Ukranians have the right to decide whether they want to risk a likely death instead of a lousy life

But Zelensky is giving them false hope. They are lambs to the slaughter. All the bullshit on TV about how heroic they are. I mean, they are heroic but they are dead meat. It's not like the Rebel Alliance on Hoth about to defeat the Evil Empire. But to us it is. It's just TV. We rout for the good guys and want them to win, not surrender. It's just ketchup.

In order for Ukraine to not be completely decimated they either surrender or it's possible that Russia caves to sanctions or NATO get involved. And it must be this week.

What happens if Russia kills 50'000 civilians then withdraws. How long do we sanction them for after that? Not long I bet.

 

[FBnil]

But Zelensky is giving them false hope. They are lambs to the slaughter.

Well, he begged to Nato to let them in. Nato refused. This is plan B.
But there are favourable things too: Demoralized enemy soldiers. Help from neighbor countries.
Some want to fight. Some are forced (mandatory draft) to fight. And some are homeland destabilizers, those are there too.

What happens if Russia kills 50'000 civilians then withdraws. How long do we sanction them for after that? Not long I bet.

Depends on the surrender conditions. If they don't take them like Germany took them (very severe) then I guess not soon.
Which would be: Set up a Central Bank as one of the last countries where these do not suck money out off, and control. Change government to what the west wants it too and sell their gas+oil for ridiculously low prices. Basically, kill the local oligarchy and give away the resources to be owned by foreign multinationals. While being policed internally by Nato.

And don't forget the religious angle.

 

[pyrat]

me too. totally. another day another opinion (from me)

Well, yes. But for me that's kind of normal. I mean I keep thinking the problem has no solution (because people have already died, and whatever the outcome, it won't solve that). So there's a contradiction that leads you to falsehood whatever answer you give.
As Joshua said in War Games "What a strange game, war. The only way of winning is not to play".

But Zelensky is giving them false hope.

Not sure. I don't follow Zelensky so much. I had the impression he's just saying they'll fight, not that htey'll win. But in this kind of situations both sides say they will win, so I guess in context people understand that it doesn't have to be true.

They are lambs to the slaughter. All the bullshit on TV about how heroic they are. I mean, they are heroic but they are dead meat. It's not like the Rebel Alliance on Hoth about to defeat the Evil Empire. But to us it is. It's just TV. We rout for the good guys and want them to win, not surrender. It's just ketchup.

Yeah, propaganda is bullshit. And If I have to eat my side's propaganda, I'd like to at least be able to see the other side's propaganda if I feel like it. So it worries me that EU decides to censor RT or Sputnik or so. Yes, they lie, but I fear western sources lie too.

In order for Ukraine to not be completely decimated they either surrender or it's possible that Russia caves to sanctions or NATO get involved. And it must be this week.

I don't know. Are we sure Ukraine won't be decimated even if it surrenders ? I mean once someone starts killing people I start thinking they can lie too.

 

[FBnil]

This is sci-fi, but might become a reality (real ones are already developed and presented, but suffer from flaws that normal drones also have: can be caught with nets, EMP, shooting hair (or other things that get in the rotors) in the air and even shielding with your arms - the AI is not that advanced yet, and to be piloted by a drone pilot would mean to make them a bit bigger for the extra video transmitter)

 

[TeDaDeS]

Smaller news: https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...er-jets-violated-swedish-airspace-2022-03-02/
"Two Russian SU27 and two SU24 fighter jets briefly entered Swedish airspace east of the Swedish island of Gotland in the Baltic Sea, Sweden's Armed Forces said in a statement, adding that Swedish JAS 39 Gripen jets were sent to document the violation."
Sweden is not a NATO member state.

This is sci-fi, but might become a reality (real ones are already developed and presented, but suffer from flaws that normal drones also have: can be caught with nets, EMP, shooting hair (or other things that get in the rotors) in the air and even shielding with your arms - the AI is not that advanced yet, and to be piloted by a drone pilot would mean to make them a bit bigger for the extra video transmitter)

Except the excellently cooperating AI part it might be something that already exists.

Stuff that already exists now:
Tiny drones are already used: https://flymotionus.com/2021/11/05/flirs-black-hornet-is-the-worlds-smallest-military-drone/
Small drones that drop bombs are already in use: https://www.businessinsider.com/rus...-give-military-small-drones-with-bombs-2019-7
Similar sized drone from the video is ~$25: https://deals.iphonehacks.com/sales/cheerson-cx-10c-nano-drone-with-camera-2gb-microsd-card

 

[netcat]

Joshua said in War Games "What a strange game, war. The only way of winning is not to play".

I love this film it made a big impact on me. Gonna watch it with my daughter.

 

[FBnil]

Does this resonate with anyone here on these forums?

 

[JDTAY]

Does this resonate with anyone here on these forums?

Seems like the type of stuff Putin would be into.

 

[netcat]

I wonder how long it will be before Putin uses cruise missiles against Russian civilians.

 

[TeDaDeS]

I wonder how long it will be before Putin uses cruise missiles against Russian civilians.

Why would he fire missiles at his own people?

 

[JDTAY]

I skipped around on that FBnil video. It mentions vaccines. Pretty sure vaccinations won’t end the world. That’s what nukes are for.

 

[pyrat]

Why would he fire missiles at his own people?

There is no reason to do that, but then he's already doing that, isn't he? According to his discourse Ukraine isn't a nation and the people he's bombing are Russians. He says they're Russian nazis or something and need "demilitarization" and a new government. He also represses Russian citizens. He's had wars in Chechnya (is this the spelling?), which is apparently inside the Russian Federation. So he just has to find those in his own people who doesn't obey or so and fire missiles to them. He may call them terrorists, or nazis or something but that's just the artistic part. I've heard people in Donbass say something similar of Ukranians, that a country can only bonb its citizens once, because the second time they're no longer their citizens, meaning you can't call something part of yourself and your enemy at the same time.