Use donation + half the cross upgrade money to speed queue cleaning up?

[Timstertoo]

Just make €150 1GhZ subsidised cross upgrades available first come first first serve. No queue, they pay when they are available. I take dibs on the first one

This certainly speeds the queue up and will result in more, well deserved, money for ED and the investors so win win.

Anyone who wants to hang in for the original amount, which I understand and respect, will have a much higher chance of getting one.

 

[Grench]

...

And I must be careful with my math, this is true. But using the profits from sold pandoras + donations would decrease the cross upgrade costs a lot, so the queues can be decreased faster. I think in fact a lot of people would cross upgrade for 159€. The bigger problem would be to sell enough pandoras and get fast enough donations to catch up. My biggest problem is that I don't know if my numbers are right. ED is the production price of a Ghz Pandora 375€ and the production price of a Rebirth Pandora 377€?

 

[Grench]

Just make €150 1GhZ subsidised cross upgrades available first come first first serve. No queue, they pay when they are available. I take dibs on the first one This certainly speeds the queue up and will result in more, well deserved, money for ED and the investors so win win. Anyone who wants to hang in for the original amount, which I understand and respect, will have a much higher chance of getting one.

 

[Timstertoo]

...
And I must be careful with my math, this is true. But using the profits from sold pandoras + donations would decrease the cross upgrade costs a lot, so the queues can be decreased faster. I think in fact a lot of people would cross upgrade for 159€. The bigger problem would be to sell enough pandoras and get fast enough donations to catch up. My biggest problem is that I don't know if my numbers are right. ED is the production price of a Ghz Pandora 375€ and the production price of a Rebirth Pandora 377€?
 
The profits from sold pandoras is not available for this purpose - at least not the half that goes to feed units to Craig's queue.  Once ED's queue is finished - that 50% of the profits could potentially be used this way, but that is up to ED.
 
Your plan would be diverting funds that would provide Pandoras to the queue in the order that orders were received to subsidize those who would jump that queue.  This would increase the suffering of the oldest pre-orders.
 
Although the intention is good, you need to find the money for the discounted cross-upgrade somewhere else.
 
I think a community donation funded 50EUR off cross upgrade would go a long way on it's own.  The discount does not need to be very deep to have effect.  Making it too deep by super-subsidizing the cross-upgrade would only benefit a few.  50EUR off would likely push the fence-sitters over to the cross-upgrade.
 
rohezal - you wouldn't happen to be waiting on a pre-order sitting in Craig's queue that you'd like to cross-upgrade, would you?

 

[Timstertoo]

Just make €150 1GhZ subsidised cross upgrades available first come first first serve. No queue, they pay when they are available. I take dibs on the first one This certainly speeds the queue up and will result in more, well deserved, money for ED and the investors so win win. Anyone who wants to hang in for the original amount, which I understand and respect, will have a much higher chance of getting one.
 
Which is why 150EUR is -too high-.
 
I'd rather see us start with 50EUR and see if we can get 40 cleared for 2000EUR in donations.
At 150 EUR per order subsidy we would only clear 13.
 
If there aren't enough takers at 50, then notch it up slowly until someone takes the money.  Starting too rich though would be squandering the donated funds - which would discourage donations.
 
Give the donations pools the biggest possible bang for the buck.

I mean €150 paid by the pre orderer. Not a €150,- subsidie. Although I don't know how much subsidie that work out to.

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[Grench]

...


And I must be careful with my math, this is true. But using the profits from sold pandoras + donations would decrease the cross upgrade costs a lot, so the queues can be decreased faster. I think in fact a lot of people would cross upgrade for 159€. The bigger problem would be to sell enough pandoras and get fast enough donations to catch up. My biggest problem is that I don't know if my numbers are right. ED is the production price of a Ghz Pandora 375€ and the production price of a Rebirth Pandora 377€?


The profits from sold pandoras is not available for this purpose - at least not the half that goes to feed units to Craig's queue.  Once ED's queue is finished - that 50% of the profits could potentially be used this way, but that is up to ED.


Your plan would be diverting funds that would provide Pandoras to the queue in the order that orders were received to subsidize those who would jump that queue.  This would increase the suffering of the oldest pre-orders.


Although the intention is good, you need to find the money for the discounted cross-upgrade somewhere else.


I think a community donation funded 50EUR off cross upgrade would go a long way on it's own.  The discount does not need to be very deep to have effect.  Making it too deep by super-subsidizing the cross-upgrade would only benefit a few.  50EUR off would likely push the fence-sitters over to the cross-upgrade.


rohezal - you wouldn't happen to be waiting on a pre-order sitting in Craig's queue that you'd like to cross-upgrade, would you?

I am. But how wouldn't a bunch of people dropping €150 and getting the queue sent out sooner be better then a nobody doing that?


If you feel I'm being egotistical by offering an option for me to pay more I hereby apologise and will wait for my order without paying extra.

I'm not opposed to the idea of a donation drive to help people like you pay more - but less than the production costs.  However, I want to make sure we spread that donation money as thinly as possible in the process so we get as many people like you to cross upgrade as possible.

A 50 EUR may not be enough to get YOU to cross upgrade - but if we can get three others to cross upgrade at a 50 EUR subsidy each, then that makes more sense and then you can simply wait.

You two seem to want to list the cross upgrade price from a classic pre-order all the way to 1Ghz and get that subsidized out at a huge rate.  If you consider it from a Classic pre-order to a 600Mhz rebirth cross-upgrade perspective, 50EUR is a VERY nice community gift/assistance.

There is no way we're going to be able to raise 150-200EUR per unit * 500 units that you two seem to think would work.  You're talking about 100,000 EUR to do it that way - you know that right?

Don't be so freekin' greedy with other people's money.

This is all hypothetical anyway - but I can tell you that I'd be MUCH more likely to contribute to a donation pool to give 50EUR discounts to 40 cross-upgrades than I would be to giving 150EUR cross-upgrade discounts to 13 people.

 

[Grench]

Just make €150 1GhZ subsidised cross upgrades available first come first first serve. No queue, they pay when they are available. I take dibs on the first one This certainly speeds the queue up and will result in more, well deserved, money for ED and the investors so win win. Anyone who wants to hang in for the original amount, which I understand and respect, will have a much higher chance of getting one.


Which is why 150EUR is -too high-.


I'd rather see us start with 50EUR and see if we can get 40 cleared for 2000EUR in donations.


At 150 EUR per order subsidy we would only clear 13.


If there aren't enough takers at 50, then notch it up slowly until someone takes the money.  Starting too rich though would be squandering the donated funds - which would discourage donations.


Give the donations pools the biggest possible bang for the buck.

I mean €150 paid by the pre orderer. Not a €150,- subsidie. Although I don't know how much subsidie that work out to.


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So - you want to pay 150 EUR to have -other people- donate their money to fund the -other- 200 EUR to send you your device.

No thanks - buying you out of the queue is too expensive.  You can wait.

However, I'm betting we can find 40 other people who would want to take a 50EUR discount on the then current cross-upgrade price to get out of CraigIX's queue.  If not, then inch that up by 25 EUR a week until the funds that would be raised for this purpose run out.

If ED decides this is a manageable thing to do - then we'd have to start a donation pool for this project.  Until we have a funded pool though, this is all hypothetical.

 

[Timstertoo]

...
And I must be careful with my math, this is true. But using the profits from sold pandoras + donations would decrease the cross upgrade costs a lot, so the queues can be decreased faster. I think in fact a lot of people would cross upgrade for 159€. The bigger problem would be to sell enough pandoras and get fast enough donations to catch up. My biggest problem is that I don't know if my numbers are right. ED is the production price of a Ghz Pandora 375€ and the production price of a Rebirth Pandora 377€?
 
The profits from sold pandoras is not available for this purpose - at least not the half that goes to feed units to Craig's queue.  Once ED's queue is finished - that 50% of the profits could potentially be used this way, but that is up to ED.
 
Your plan would be diverting funds that would provide Pandoras to the queue in the order that orders were received to subsidize those who would jump that queue.  This would increase the suffering of the oldest pre-orders.
 
Although the intention is good, you need to find the money for the discounted cross-upgrade somewhere else.
 
I think a community donation funded 50EUR off cross upgrade would go a long way on it's own.  The discount does not need to be very deep to have effect.  Making it too deep by super-subsidizing the cross-upgrade would only benefit a few.  50EUR off would likely push the fence-sitters over to the cross-upgrade.
 
rohezal - you wouldn't happen to be waiting on a pre-order sitting in Craig's queue that you'd like to cross-upgrade, would you?


I am. But how wouldn't a bunch of people dropping €150 and getting the queue sent out sooner be better then a nobody doing that?
If you feel I'm being egotistical by offering an option for me to pay more I hereby apologise and will wait for my order without paying extra.
 
I'm not opposed to the idea of a donation drive to help people like you pay more - but less than the production costs.  However, I want to make sure we spread that donation money as thinly as possible in the process so we get as many people like you to cross upgrade as possible.
 
A 50 EUR may not be enough to get YOU to cross upgrade - but if we can get three others to cross upgrade at a 50 EUR subsidy each, then that makes more sense and then you can simply wait.
 
You two seem to want to list the cross upgrade price from a classic pre-order all the way to 1Ghz and get that subsidized out at a huge rate.  If you consider it from a Classic pre-order to a 600Mhz rebirth cross-upgrade perspective, 50EUR is a VERY nice community gift/assistance.
 
There is no way we're going to be able to raise 150-200EUR per unit * 500 units that you two seem to think would work.  You're talking about 100,000 EUR to do it that way - you know that right?
 
Don't be so freekin' greedy with other people's money.
 
This is all hypothetical anyway - but I can tell you that I'd be MUCH more likely to contribute to a donation pool to give 50EUR discounts to 40 cross-upgrades than I would be to giving 150EUR cross-upgrade discounts to 13 people.

Well if you have to use that tone I'll apologise and simply wait for my order to show up or not. You're probably right, everyone who has'nt upgraded yet for full amount after all this time will surely start pulling his wallet now and make me look silly.



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[rohezal]

I think there are some little differences here, maybe I can explain a bit more what I want.

The current situation is:

ED will use all the profits he made:

to pay the investors

to deliver the remaining pandoras

I am not sure how much money has to pay the investors back and how much from the profit he must keep for it.

But:

There are 212 + 25 = 237 preorders left. So ED must sell around 500 units. With the "pay the half for an upgrade" idea, he must sell 250 to end the whole queue if everyone upgrades. Later more.

 

[Grench]

I think there are some little differences here, maybe I can explain a bit more what I want.

The current situation is:

ED will use all the profits he made:

to pay the investors

to deliver the remaining pandoras

I am not sure how much money has to pay the investors back and how much from the profit he must keep for it.

But:

There are 212 + 25 = 237 preorders left. So ED must sell around 500 units. With the "pay the half for an upgrade" idea, he must sell 250 to end the whole queue if everyone upgrades. Later more.

1.  Not everyone is going to be willing to 'upgrade'.

2.  Your idea is a violation of the agreement that ED and CraigIX had whereby profits from sales go to fund orders from the queue.  You're using it for orders that HOP the queue - that is different.

3.  The solution can not, therefore, touch that money - that still has to flow out to units for people sitting in the queue the longest.

4.  Your idea requires the diversion of something in the range of 200EUR for each of 500 orders = 100.000 EUR that doesn't exist.

5.  Your method requires diverting funds away from someone else's Pandora shipping earlier in the queue in order to subsidize one going out earlier to you.

Giving a break to the upgrade costs IS a good idea to encourage people to hop the queue though.

If it were, "50 EUR off upgrade for the first 40 responders," funded by 2000 EUR in donations to a specific fund for this... with no guarantee of the offer continuing after that...  I could see that getting good response.

That is 40 upgrades, that from Ed's perspective would be fully funded.  That is also 40 less in the queue that would require funding.  This would be real money from actual sources - not diverting funds from their now stated uses.  Not making it take longer for someone else's Pandora to ship in order to convince you to upgrade.  Is a 50EUR break over the production costs enough to make you upgrade?  Maybe not - but are there 40 in the list of 500??? who would do it?  Only one way to find out.

 

[rohezal]

Short version:

1. The get a cross upgrade for 50€ less from donation is a very good idea, will shorting the waiting queue a bit and has no problems. I think we agree on this .

2. The half cross upgrades (for 199€ or 159€) are controversial. I have read your post and want to explain my opinion about it.

1.  Not everyone is going to be willing to 'upgrade'.

True but a lot of people will, when it is cheap enough.

The solution can not, therefore, touch that money - that still has to flow out to units for people sitting in the queue the longest.

It is hard to determine what is "fair".

1. The one who waited longest, should be served first, is fair.

2. We should clear the queue with the least possible amount of sales, to make sure everyone who payed for a preorder will get a Pandora, is fair too.

Both things are fair, but both say different things. 

What would be worse? Getting a Pandora later then someone who ordered after myself, but pays extra money? Or getting not a Pandora because there are not enough sales? Or getting a Pandora 6 month later then possible, because nobody is allowed to jump the queue for money?

All 3 things are not nice. But I believe most people will agree, that getting a Pandora later is better then getting no Pandora at all. This way I think the best thing is too allow half cross upgrades.

2.  Your idea is a violation of the agreement that ED and CraigIX had whereby profits from sales go to fund orders from the queue.  You're using it for orders that HOP the queue - that is different.

Are you sure about this? I think the hopping is reducing the queue is helping to fullfil the agreement with less sales, since you need less profit.

From ED latest numbers there  are 237 preorders left. When the production price is 375€ he needs 88,875€ to produce them. He needs less when people pay to get the Pandora more early. With the average sales of 40 Pandoras a month and 2 sold Pandoras fund preordered Pandora he needs 12 months for clearing the queue.

You can say, the queue is worth 89,000€. So the agreement between Craig, ED and the preorders is to get 89,000€ to clear the queues. 

There are allready 3 ways of clearing the queue:

1. Selling enough Pandoras and use the profit.

2. Get donations from nice people

3. Let someone pay the production for his Pandora and jump the queue (cross upgrade).

We have now 2 other ideas:

4. Use donation to let more preorders cross upgrade. Use a small but significant amount of 50€ (+25€ if the are not enough willing to do it)

5. Sell 1 Pandora and let the other half of production cost be paid by someone who want to jump the queue.

You see point 3. and 5. are quite similar.

Let's have a more mathematical view at it:

Every crossupgrade removes 375€ from the 89K. Every 2 sales removes 375€ from the list. Every half cross upgrade removes 375€ (you have to pay 199€ for a Ghz Pandora, the rest is taken from profits).

Every cross upgrade is free (costs covered by upgrader). Every 2 sales, costs 2 sales. Every half cross upgrade costs 1 sale (half costs covered by upgrader). We (and in fact nobody) don't know how many Pandoras ED will be able to sell. And how many per month. The "best move" to deliver to as many as possible Pandoras to preorder customers would be use the least possible amount of sales.

Imagine it as a kind of walking game. You are just allowed to do X steps. X is unknown. And you want to reach the goal before you are out of steps. You have to use the path, which takes you to the goal with the least steps. The goal in this case is the fullfilment of the agreement to deliver all Pandoras to the preorders.

A cross upgrade costs 0 steps and is best.

A 50€ donation subsidized cross upgrade costs 0 steps and the best too.

A half cross upgrade costs 1 step and is ok.

A "sell 2, build 1" Pandora costs 2 steps and the worst.

A donation is "get an extra step".

So we have to use all this tactics to reach the goal. The best tactic would be: "all predorders just cross upgrade". This is not possible. The 50€ donation cross upgrade is a good way to get more cross upgrades and should be considered. The half cross upgrades are the most realistic way to reach the goal, since they costs only half the steps, then the "sell 2 Pandoras to build 1 new Pandora" operation.

So: when more people do half cross upgrades, the amount of needed steps (sales) is reduced. So everyone gets a Pandora sooner, and the probability that every preorder customer gets a Pandora rises. If everyone is doing a half cross upgrades there are only 250 sales needed, which can be done ca. 6 months instead of 12 months. If 50% of predorders do the half cross upgrade, ED needs to sell 375 Pandoras and we need 9 months. 250 or 375 are far less then 500 sales.

The agreement is not broken by doing half cross upgrades.

1. If nobody half cross upgrades, nothing happens.

2. If some people cross upgrades, the queue is reordered (some people get to the front), but queue will be shorter and still all people will get a Pandora when ED sells enough new Pandoras.

3. If all are doing cross upgrades, the queue will change not, but will be cleared in half the time. So ALL people have to wait only for 250 instead of 500 sales and will keep their positions in the queue.

The only drawback from half cross upgrades is, that people who half cross upgrade will get in front of the queue. This is the cost. You change positions in the queue. But the queues gets shorter with every position change, and the global waiting time to clear the queue would be a lot shorter.

4.  Your idea requires the diversion of something in the range of 200EUR for each of 500 orders = 100.000 EUR that doesn't exist.

I think there are just 237 orders. This would need about 50.000€. And this money can be taken from the profits ED is making with selling new 1 Ghz Pandoras.

5.  Your method requires diverting funds away from someone else's Pandora shipping earlier in the queue in order to subsidize one going out earlier to you.

This is true. But it is making more people getting their Pandora much faster, even when only of the preorders are half cross upgrading.

Let do some easy math. Say we have 240 people in the queue. The last 50% is doing a half cross upgrade.

The amount (sales) needed with half cross upgrades:

120*1+120*2= 120+240=360 sales needed

The amount (sales) needed without half cross upgrades:

240*2= 240+240=480 sales needed

With 40 sales per Month, this are 3 months more. This is way I think half cross upgrades would be a good thing.

Only question: what to do with the already existing rebirth units? They were produced from existing, old Omap chips. Are there still old omap chips left?