Ubuntu On Pandora

[Megamixman]

Chad, you're oozing Form over Function.... Picking a distro because of press is just stupid... Nothing says that Pandora can't use Ubuntu packages or Debain ARMEL packages on it's distro. Using complete Ubuntu is just stupid. Make a good product and the press will come on it's own, make a product for the press and you're sure to fail.

 

[randomhack]

Again, I'm not saying Ubuntu should be the default OS. (Personally, I think Maemo should be.) But I don't get the hostility to someone doing a proof-of-concept type thing and running Ubuntu on the Pandora.

What I'd like to see / do is install Ubuntu - gut an old computer case - stick the Pandora inside, have the monitor, keyboard, and mouse cables running into the box, sit there running Ubuntu off the what looks like a normal computer, and then open the box and take out the Pandora, revealing the true source of the power. I think that would make a great YouTube promo for the Pandora. Nothing official, necessarily, just buzz-worthy.


Running Ubuntu on the Pandora is fine for someones hacking/hobby project. But lets not forget one thing. Pandora is designed mainly for games. That is its reason d'etre. The fact that it can be used as a UMPC is secondary. Thus, even for marketing, it would be better to focus on games and multimedia. For example that it can play quake 3 without any effort. And probably prepare a few demos of some opengl es 2.0 based apps.
For people who are interested in apps other than games, it is enough to demo a working browser.

For the same reason, it would also be not advisable to put a stock desktop UI on a handheld. If you have to do 10 clicks just to get to games, that would be a very stupid design for a game console. Without the UI, there is no particular advantage of running Ubuntu when debian armel packages will run anyway.

For marketing, its better to focus on one thing : its an exceptional game and multimedia machine. Great CPU, great GPU, enough ram for a handheld, TV-out, good battery life. Everything else is secondary. Trying to market it as all things to all people isnt very interesting.

 

[chad78]

Chad, you're oozing Form over Function.... Picking a distro because of press is just stupid... Nothing says that Pandora can't use Ubuntu packages or Debain ARMEL packages on it's distro. Using complete Ubuntu is just stupid. Make a good product and the press will come on it's own, make a product for the press and you're sure to fail.

Once again - for, i think the fourth time in this thread - I do not want - DO NOT WANT - Ubuntu to be THE DEFAULT OS for Pandora. I *DO* want someone, (it might have to be me), to put Ubuntu on a Pandora and document it, for the press. It's a wow factor thing. It's a "Hey, look what I can do!" thing. It's like Sony and the rubber ducks demo on the PS3. Is there any reason why someone would want to dump hundreds of rubber ducks in a bathtub on a video game? Perhaps - but not likely. It was a demo made just for the press.

Is that form over function? Yeah. Really it is. That's what a demo does. You don't use a demo in real life - it's just to show something off. It's delivering a message.

The message is - (and it's a true message, btw) - if you really want to - you could replace your computer with a Pandora. If the Pandora can run a full powered web browser - javascript, AJAX, RSS, Flash, SSL, etc. - and play most popular media formats - mp3, mp4, avi, xvid, ogg, wav, aiff, etc. - and couple other things like email and RSS - then it can replace most people's computers already. Add to that some basic office tasks, and you're good to go.

But you don't have to limit yourself that much. The Pandora can do more, including, running a full desktop OS.

 

[habib15]

For marketing, its better to focus on one thing : its an exceptional game and multimedia machine. Great CPU, great GPU, enough ram for a handheld, TV-out, good battery life. Everything else is secondary. Trying to market it as all things to all people isnt very interesting.

I believe this was the downfall of the Tapwave Zodiac. Their marketing spent too much time saying it was a gaming PDA instead of touting its other abilities like video & music playback, palm OS compatible applications, and web browsing over bluetooth or wifi card. Most serious gamers looked at it and saw very few proffesional games compared to the DS or newly announced PSP, and they lost all of the potential people just looking for a good PDA that could be used as a PMP.

To say this is mainly a gaming platform is creating to narrow a scope for potential users, especially when its a niche product to begin with. I say have a good custom distribution for the Pandora and someone can port Ubunutu to it for the wow factor if they want to.

 

[gaterooze]

What I'd like to see / do is install Ubuntu - gut an old computer case - stick the Pandora inside, have the monitor, keyboard, and mouse cables running into the box, sit there running Ubuntu off the what looks like a normal computer, and then open the box and take out the Pandora, revealing the true source of the power. I think that would make a great YouTube promo for the Pandora. Nothing official, necessarily, just buzz-worthy.

Disregarding the practicals of actually using it, I think that's a cool idea for a hobbyist's video.

You could do the same thing with a gutted PS1 (& USB PS1 controllers).

EDIT: note I said hobbyist video, obviously not an official promo!

 

[Yrx]

What I'd like to see / do is install Ubuntu - gut an old computer case - stick the Pandora inside, have the monitor, keyboard, and mouse cables running into the box, sit there running Ubuntu off the what looks like a normal computer, and then open the box and take out the Pandora, revealing the true source of the power. I think that would make a great YouTube promo for the Pandora. Nothing official, necessarily, just buzz-worthy.

Disregarding the practicals of actually using it, I think that's a cool idea for a hobbyist's video.

You could do the same thing with a gutted PS1 (& USB PS1 controllers).

EDIT: note I said hobbyist video, obviously not an official promo!

We could make an entire series of videos. If N64 got running, for instance.

Yeah, Ubuntu would kind of be pointless on a usability level, but it would still be pretty darned cool. So why not?

 

[Squidge]

What I'd like to see / do is install Ubuntu - gut an old computer case - stick the Pandora inside, have the monitor, keyboard, and mouse cables running into the box, sit there running Ubuntu off the what looks like a normal computer, and then open the box and take out the Pandora, revealing the true source of the power. I think that would make a great YouTube promo for the Pandora. Nothing official, necessarily, just buzz-worthy.

Unfortunately, with todays Youtube users, all you'll probably get is a load of people that don't know the Pandora screaming "fake!!111" (including the 1's) and "That looks like a modded X, impossible.".

 

[Yrx]

What I'd like to see / do is install Ubuntu - gut an old computer case - stick the Pandora inside, have the monitor, keyboard, and mouse cables running into the box, sit there running Ubuntu off the what looks like a normal computer, and then open the box and take out the Pandora, revealing the true source of the power. I think that would make a great YouTube promo for the Pandora. Nothing official, necessarily, just buzz-worthy.

Unfortunately, with todays Youtube users, all you'll probably get is a load of people that don't know the Pandora screaming "fake!!111" (including the 1's) and "That looks like a modded X, impossible.".

Does anyone listen to them? lol

 

[Squidge]

Hey, I read the comments when I need a laugh

 

[Megamixman]

Or a Lobotomy.

Ok, Now that i get your point, I guess Ubuntu for pure demo wouldn't be half bad of an idea, but ONLY because someone else has/is doing 95% of the work. Thank you Nokia..... I can't believe I'm saying that.

 

[y2kss66]

I think porting ubuntu mobile would be a better move first

 

[Svartalf]

Ubuntu mobile may be optimised for an internet tablet, but certainly not for a gaming console. It may work well, but it may very well not.

What advantage is there to using ubuntu? The pandora will have something based on debian anyway, and debian/ubuntu repositories/packages may be usable with/without modification.

Heh... Apps space- that's what.

Either Maemo or Ubuntu Mobile will bring a huge space of already made ARM based apps that we won't have to port ourselves. All we'll have to provide is the games. And with the hardware we have in hand, I think you're going to find that we have more than enough to spare.

As for running well... Define "well". I don't think you're going to find that it's running GNOME for desktop even if you're talking Ubuntu Mobile.

Hildon, which is effectively "GNOME for tablets and mobile devices", works rather well on a much lesser machine called the Nokia 770, 800, and 810 for each of the subsequent models. It's already got rather
nice and impressive games that play well, and I will re-iterate, on MUCH less capable
hardware compared to the Pandora's specs. It's likely to be using that or Android to begin with.

Let's just see what all comes of things, shall we? Let's not go and claim "bloated" until it proves out that
way. This isn't JUST a console- we all, as a group, need to stop thinking of just that. As CraigX and
company have indicated- it's a UMPC that is tuned for gameplay first and foremost. That brings a
different set of rules into the picture.

Me, I can't wait to see what I can make of mine when I get my grubby hands on it.

 

[sindbad]

Heh... Apps space- that's what.

Either Maemo or Ubuntu Mobile will bring a huge space of already made ARM based apps that we won't have to port ourselves. All we'll have to provide is the games. And with the hardware we have in hand, I think you're going to find that we have more than enough to spare.

Or just make sure maemo and ubuntu mobile apps work on whatever default distro?

It may be a good idea. We'll see when we can test this theory.

 

[StealthBagel]

People seem to assume Ubuntu is Linux + a GUI + applications etc.-- as though you could never assemble these pieces separately. the Linux kernel, X11 or Compiz windowing systems, window managers/desktop environments like KDE and Gnome, all existed before Ubuntu incorporated them. It's just something prepackaged. and thus ...

Any large distro makes no sense on a handheld when you can already just install the packages you need. Ubuntu comes with a super-generic kernel that would use lots of RAM, and lengthen the boot process as it contains drivers for all manner of new and old hardware, most of which has absolutely nothing to do with the hardware in and attached to the OMAP3.

The kernel on this device should undoubtedly, consist only of hardware that is already IN the device, and necessities for out of the box use like USB mass storage device drivers etc. The rest can be installed as modules later by the end user.

This very topic is fairly preposterous.

 

[chad78]

People seem to assume Ubuntu is Linux + a GUI + applications etc.-- as though you could never assemble these pieces separately. the Linux kernel, X11 or Compiz windowing systems, window managers/desktop environments like KDE and Gnome, all existed before Ubuntu incorporated them. It's just something prepackaged. and thus ...

Any large distro makes no sense on a handheld when you can already just install the packages you need. Ubuntu comes with a super-generic kernel that would use lots of RAM, and lengthen the boot process as it contains drivers for all manner of new and old hardware, most of which has absolutely nothing to do with the hardware in and attached to the OMAP3.

The kernel on this device should undoubtedly, consist only of hardware that is already IN the device, and necessities for out of the box use like USB mass storage device drivers etc. The rest can be installed as modules later by the end user.

This very topic is fairly preposterous.

Your comment is fairly preposterous.

The Ubuntu is question is being recompiled for ARM. Don't you think any sane programmer would have removed the useless bits (drivers for obsolete/non-ARM hardware, etc.) This isn't some nerd in a gargage doing this - this is a big-company sponsored project.

I don't think many people on this forum are as unfamiliar with Linux as you presume. Nobody thinks Ubuntu is some new special wunderkind that exists in a bubble and came from nowhere.

Again, and I hate repeating myself, but you people don't fucking read. No one is suggesting making Ubuntu the default OS. NO ONE IS SUGGESTING MAKING UBUNTU THE DEFAULT OS. Once again...

NO ONE IS SUGGESTING MAKING UBUNTU THE DEFAULT OPERATING SYSTEM!

Here's what Ubuntu is - household recognition. You say "Ubuntu" people listen. You say "Linux" people think "geek alert!". Ubuntu is, fairly or unfairly, accurately or not, seen as the people's Linux. It is the version of Linux that non-Linux people are comfortable with.

I've used Ubuntu, and I've used a good number of other distros of Linux. Ubuntu is not my favorite. I really don't like Gnome all that much, personally. I prefer KDE. But regardless of my personal opinions or experience, (and equally regardless of yours), people know Ubuntu.

As I've said - if *someone* (not necessarily anyone official or anyone acting on behalf of the project in any official way) were to put Ubuntu on the Pandora, and demonstrated this tiny all-in-one gadget running a familiar powerful desktop operating system - then people would be impressed. Could you run some other flavor of desktop Linux? Sure - but how many are already compiled for ARM with 16,000 packages (thanks Sphinxter) ready for usage? And how many of *those* would have the name recognition of "Ubuntu"? (the answer I'm looking for is Zero, btw.)

I get it, I really do. Some of you die hard nerds hate Ubuntu because it is popular - and Linux was never supposed to be popular. Anything that normal people can use and understand is bad - fisher price eye candy garbage that lowers your IQ just from looking at it. Totally understand. This is not for you. Go install the CLI form of Gentoo and leave us stoopid n00bz alone to play with our coloring book OSes. You've proven your vast superiority in intellect, experience, familiarity with the inner workings of - not just Linux - but, in fact all operating systems everywhere, wisdom, grace, and splendor. Congratulations, Herr 733tist. You have come, you have seen, you have conquered.

Now, can we get on with this?

 

[Karel Jansens]

How about making a Pandora-optimized debian-based distro -- and calling it "Pandabuntu" or something similarly non-geeky?

It is a valid point that any generic distribution, whether it is compiled for ARM or not, will have both unnecessary baggage and need additional components for the Pandora. Ubuntu's strongest "selling" point is it's amazing hardware recognition ability, something that's not exactly needed for the Pandora platform.

Also, most non-geeky computer users would only need to see a Linux Gnome, KDE or XFCE desktop with a familiar-looking backsplash to go: "Oh lookie! It's the same as on my [insert popular Linux-based subnotebook name here]!" and be sold. No need to carefully explain to them that this particular Linux desktop is not exactly Ubuntu, but something taylored for the Pandora handheld.

Best of both worlds, I'd say...

 

[sindbad]

I'll do my best to help you understand that (most) people have read your posts. With the risks involved.

The Ubuntu is question is being recompiled for ARM. Don't you think any sane programmer would have removed the useless bits (drivers for obsolete/non-ARM hardware, etc.) This isn't some nerd in a gargage doing this - this is a big-company sponsored project.
It still is made for a lot of arm devices. It needs customisation anyway.

I've used Ubuntu, and I've used a good number of other distros of Linux. Ubuntu is not my favorite. I really don't like Gnome all that much, personally. I prefer KDE. But regardless of my personal opinions or experience, (and equally regardless of yours), people know Ubuntu.
Try kubuntu, that's what I use.

I get it, I really do. Some of you die hard nerds hate Ubuntu because it is popular - and Linux was never supposed to be popular. Anything that normal people can use and understand is bad - fisher price eye candy garbage that lowers your IQ just from looking at it. Totally understand. This is not for you. Go install the CLI form of Gentoo and leave us stoopid n00bz alone to play with our coloring book OSes. You've proven your vast superiority in intellect, experience, familiarity with the inner workings of - not just Linux - but, in fact all operating systems everywhere, wisdom, grace, and splendor. Congratulations, Herr 733tist. You have come, you have seen, you have conquered.
Seriously, do you really think that? Most developers wants many users. It helps with bug reports if nothing else.

Now, can we get on with this?
No, since there's no device to test it on and ubuntu mobile with a proper kernel. Just chill out and wait for someone to test it.

 

[_VWV_]

People seem to assume Ubuntu is Linux + a GUI + applications etc.-- as though you could never assemble these pieces separately. the Linux kernel, X11 or Compiz windowing systems, window managers/desktop environments like KDE and Gnome, all existed before Ubuntu incorporated them. It's just something prepackaged. and thus ...

Any large distro makes no sense on a handheld when you can already just install the packages you need. Ubuntu comes with a super-generic kernel that would use lots of RAM, and lengthen the boot process as it contains drivers for all manner of new and old hardware, most of which has absolutely nothing to do with the hardware in and attached to the OMAP3.

The kernel on this device should undoubtedly, consist only of hardware that is already IN the device, and necessities for out of the box use like USB mass storage device drivers etc. The rest can be installed as modules later by the end user.

This very topic is fairly preposterous.

1) Well then, let's take TI's kernel and use instead of Ubuntu kernel.
2) Let's Take TI's kernel + Debian with a lite-weight window manager without some useless demons running in the background.
3) Let's take Ubuntu mobile + TIs kernel.
There are tons of possibilities... The only question is.. Why not? Why do you have to create a new brand instead of using a well known one? What for should you create a Pandora-only distro..
On the other hand I don't care.. If it turns out to be as functional as Debian or Ubuntu (debootstrap for example would be nice), if I'm able to install any window manager I like, I won't care about the name of the OS.
Please understand, that some of us are a bit afraid, that the upcoming OS will be game-oriented, won't be flexible and customizable. Fear is a function from misunderstanding, lack of information and gossips (this is not the case of the andora1: because of unprecedented feedback) I know how Ubuntu works (a bit), but I've got no idea about the P-OS.
As devs say, the hardware was finalized some days ago. Things get delayed because time is needed to create the P-OS + recompile some basic packages + create/recompile Emus. Personally I will be a bit disappointed if the next day I get my andora1: I'll be installing Ubuntu mobile on it just because UMPC functionality is of more importance for me than games .

 

[Orkie]

1) Well then, let's take TI's kernel and use instead of Ubuntu kernel.
2) Let's Take TI's kernel + Debian with a lite-weight window manager without some useless demons running in the background.
3) Let's take Ubuntu mobile + TIs kernel.
There are tons of possibilities... The only question is.. Why not? Why do you have to create a new brand instead of using a well known one? What for should you create a Pandora-only distro..
On the other hand I don't care.. If it turns out to be as functional as Debian or Ubuntu (debootstrap for example would be nice), if I'm able to install any window manager I like, I won't care about the name of the OS.
Please understand, that some of us are a bit afraid, that the upcoming OS will be game-oriented, won't be flexible and customizable. Fear is a function from misunderstanding, lack of information and gossips (this is not the case of the andora1: because of unprecedented feedback) I know how Ubuntu works (a bit), but I've got no idea about the P-OS.
As devs say, the hardware was finalized some days ago. Things get delayed because time is needed to create the P-OS + recompile some basic packages + create/recompile Emus. Personally I will be a bit disappointed if the next day I get my andora1: I'll be installing Ubuntu mobile on it just because UMPC functionality is of more importance for me than games .

A nice and insulting post there. Even GPH's pitiful attempt at a firmware was fairly flexible, just full of problems. Since the Pandora system is being made by people with more than half a brain, is it not reasonable to assume that it will also be flexible? You clearly don't know what you are on about if you think you will be installing Ubuntu on it the day after it arrives - one doesn't just pop a disc into an embedded system and click next a few times! You'll have to make your own kernel for it, get a very basic filesystem going then manually install the packages you want.

 

[_VWV_]

A nice and insulting post there. Even GPH's pitiful attempt at a firmware was fairly flexible, just full of problems. Since the Pandora system is being made by people with more than half a brain, is it not reasonable to assume that it will also be flexible? You clearly don't know what you are on about if you think you will be installing Ubuntu on it the day after it arrives - one doesn't just pop a disc into an embedded system and click next a few times! You'll have to make your own kernel for it, get a very basic filesystem going then manually install the packages you want.

I most certainly didn't mean to insult anybody. By sayng "the next day" I mean it might turn that way that it'll take a day for me to realize that the firmware is highly optimized for games, but is a bit hard to use it for some other special purposes (sorry if I'm mistaken, but Craig has mentioned that there is no warranty that the P-OS will accept all the Debian arm packages without modification). I didn't mean that it'll take a day to install Debian on the andora1: . I do realize, that one will have to use a kernel, supplied by TI with all the necessary drivers, not the one that comes with Debian arm port. Haven't I mentioned that in my post? Where have you seen "the next button" in my post??? debootstrap + chroot + a kernel from TI. This is pure theory. I've only done something like that on my x86 PC (Ubuntu with a kernel from kernel.org). I also installed Ubuntu with debootstrap and chroot. That was not easy, especially there was no "next button" there, but believe me or not, I've managed, like billions before me. + I do believe that the P-OS won't be the only option for the andora1: . Either seeking for the wow factor, or for a more suitable OS (for some tasks!!! I do think, that the andora1: devs have 1.5 brain per person, but people behind Ubuntu mobile and Debian have also maid huge effort to develop a usable OS for systems like andora1:.. it might turn in the end that, say, Ubuntu mobile is more suitable for a very special task X) people will try other options. So I think different Howtos will start to appear after andora1: is out. Hope that I'll have enough knowledge to follow them. That's it.