U. S. 2008 Election Thread

[Klepto]

There are always two sides to every story and it's funny how things get embellished to show one side more than the other. I'm American and I've heard the story many many times of how America won WW2. Sometimes people just believe whatever they are told. Obviously it was a group effort to win WW2.

...and it's posts like that that remind me that the majority of US citizens are reasonable and decent human beings, like the majority of people anywhere

 

[raven]

There are always two sides to every story and it's funny how things get embellished to show one side more than the other. I'm American and I've heard the story many many times of how America won WW2. Sometimes people just believe whatever they are told. Obviously it was a group effort to win WW2.

It probably doesn't even matter, many American men have given their lives to save us and we are forever in their debt. It's a shame people don't realize that using that as an excuse / method of blackmail to get your way actually makes us resent them and the USA as a whole. It actually takes everything away from those brave men that sacrificed themselves in the first place.

 

[Phawx]

What about other countrymen that died in that war. Hell, I don't even believe when the Germans were fighting the war, EACH and EVERY one of them fully believed in it. Those were orders and they were soldiers.

The truth of the matter is Raven, when I look at your post it just seems like you hate people who have power. Like people who hate Microsoft and usually spell it Micro$oft just because Bill Gates used to be the richest man in the world.

You say the US presence in foreign countries is why people hate us. Sure I can buy that. But if we were to be Isolationist (saving lots of money while being isolationist) we would have a whole lot of people pissed off at us as well.

The US can't be Sweden. While the US is not the world, we do have an effect on the world. US GDP is 13.13 Trillion and Sweden's GDP is 290.6 Billion.

I would elect to be an isolationist, but I believe it's a Catch 22. Hate the US if you want, but I have a feeling you would hate the US for one reason or another.

My opinion is taken solely from your verbiage.

 

[nickspoon]

My granddad a world war II veteran is looking over my shoulder. He is pissed. Afer the U.S. has bailed europe out of two world wars including loss of his blood and his brothers at arms, so you can spout your ingratitued and false views about who the U.S. You Really owe him and his fellow soldiers, Cause you all would be speeking german if it weren't for him and other Americans. You better build up your own national defenses becuase pouring into social programs will not save you from total destruction, be safe then enjoy your social prgrams. And apathy will not bring us over to bail you out again.

First of all, there's no use trying to guilt me out of my views. My family have fought in the World Wars, too. My grandfather was a radio engineer in WWII, his father was an infantryman in WWI. I do not doubt that their contribution to the peace and order we enjoy today is an invaluable one. I do not doubt that Hitler was a highly unstable man. I do not doubt that the poor conditions in Germany and beaten nationalist pride were exploited. However, the world has moved on. Diplomacy and politics, rather than military strength, rule in many civilised countries. I imagine that people in the US are proud of their army, but it is not the army that keeps them the superpower they are; rather it is their economic standing. Nobody would attempt to invade the U.S. even if it had half its current military power, because it would ruin every country in the world.

Also, nobody would dare attack the U.S., given its nuclear capabilities. There are enough missiles there to destroy every person on Earth. Twice.

 

[raven]

The truth of the matter is Raven, when I look at your post it just seems like you hate people who have power.

Nope, I don't hate people who have power and I do not hate the USA either. To be honest I don't understand where you read that in my posts.

I do very much dislike American foreign politics though. The USA has replaced democratically chosen governments with ones they preferred while starting wars in other countries to 'bring democracy'. The USA is part of the UN but vetoes every decision they dislike, even if every other country agrees. When you don't blindly follow the USA into a war for the wrong reasons you are a traitor. The USA also actively supports oppressors if / when it serves their purpose (Iraq, Israel, Pakistan => Musharraf was on his way to become a second Hussein)

Meanwhile, when at war, you are 'not allowed' or rather, it is not-done, to criticize your government as a US citizen because you should support your country and your troops. The government bends the law to keep people imprisoned without legal support, even though your highest courts repeatedly states this goes against the most important laws upon which your nation was founded.

I'm not saying my government is 'clean' and ideal, I'm just summing up a couple of things I think are wrong in the USA today and which are reasons why the USA is losing support around the world and is even hated in some countries.

You brought up that the USA would save a lot of money if it was isolationist. While it is true the USA spends a lot of money on foreign aid, a large sum is going to countries like Israel, Egypt and Pakistan and are actually seen as contributions to oppressing countries/regimes (just like the US used to support Hussein) and are given in the form of military aid.

Also, while it is true that in numbers the USA spends more money on foreign aid than any other country, when you look at it in percentages of national income it ranks lowest on the same scale. As an example: the USA spends about 13.3 billion (not counting Iraq, that is not representative as average foreign aid), my country (The Netherlands) spends 3.3 billion but our economy is a lot smaller, we only have 16 million people here. So in percentages you spend 0,13 percent while we spend 0.81 percent of our national income on foreign aid (all figures from 2002, congressional research service)

Again, I want to make it very clear I do not hate the USA. I love a couple of people there and from what I have seen most people in the US are very warm and welcoming people. It's just a shame this doesn't show in your foreign politics.

I was actually very happy to see one of your previous posts and those of some others that show there are people in the USA that use their head and have their heart in the right place. I truly hope that Obama can make a change, not only for the USA but also for how the rest of the world views the USA, so tragedies like 9/11 never happen again.

 

[Phawx]

Thank you for clarifying. I apologize for misinterpreting your text. And furthermore, I agree with you.

 

[Username]

You brought up that the USA would save a lot of money if it was isolationist. While it is true the USA spends a lot of money on foreign aid, a large sum is going to countries like Israel, Egypt and Pakistan and are actually seen as contributions to oppressing countries/regimes (just like the US used to support Hussein) and are given in the form of military aid.

Can't forget Indonesia.

 

[raven]

You brought up that the USA would save a lot of money if it was isolationist. While it is true the USA spends a lot of money on foreign aid, a large sum is going to countries like Israel, Egypt and Pakistan and are actually seen as contributions to oppressing countries/regimes (just like the US used to support Hussein) and are given in the form of military aid.

Can't forget Indonesia.

I can't comment on Indonesia, my country is soooooooooo guilty of everything that is wrong there

 

[Klepto]

Musharraf was on his way to become a second Hussein

While I agree in general with most of your post I don't think it's fair to characterise Musharraf as another Saddam Hussein. From what I observed and from discussions I have had with a Pakistani friend of mine it seems that he was very different and perhaps even benign. I did notice that whenever the west was disapproving he was referred to as 'General' and when it was supportive he was referred to as 'President'. I'm not an authority on central Asian politics though, if there is evidence that contradicts my opinion I'd be thankful if you could link to it.

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

You brought up that the USA would save a lot of money if it was isolationist. While it is true the USA spends a lot of money on foreign aid, a large sum is going to countries like Israel, Egypt and Pakistan and are actually seen as contributions to oppressing countries/regimes (just like the US used to support Hussein) and are given in the form of military aid.

Can't forget Indonesia.

You kids are kidding, right? Of all the good the US has done for the world, which is more than any other nation in the history of the world, you're going to nitpick that shit? Name me one country that's done more good for the world than America. Exactly, you can't.

What about our extreme charity and foreign aide? World War I? II? Korea? 'Nam? Soviets in Afghanistan? The Gulf War? And please, Hussein in the 80s, honestly, are you going to tell me that the Ayatollahs were any better? Lesser of two evils. Israel, if you haven't noticed, is surrounded by psychopaths, and if you had cracked open a history book as of late, you'd know that we give all that money to Egypt because we practically own them. Now not only do they stay out of Israel, but we use it as an offshore torture facility, which is a good thing for our national security interests.

And if you're gonna criticize anyone for fucking up the Pacific, Africa, and the Middle East, look no further than the British Empire. Have those jackasses clean it up. :lol:

 

[raven]

Musharraf was on his way to become a second Hussein

While I agree in general with most of your post I don't think it's fair to characterise Musharraf as another Saddam Hussein. From what I observed and from discussions I have had with a Pakistani friend of mine it seems that he was very different and perhaps even benign. I did notice that whenever the west was disapproving he was referred to as 'General' and when it was supportive he was referred to as 'President'. I'm not an authority on central Asian politics though, if there is evidence that contradicts my opinion I'd be thankful if you could link to it.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Musharraf was as evil as Hussein, just that he was a second dictator who was trying to get more / hang onto his power, supported by the USA, which seems strange because at the time they were liberating another nation from a dictator they had previously supported.

Musharraf did, at the time, try to hang on to his position and suspended the constitution several times to stay in power. He disbanded, and jailed members of, the supreme court who were about to rule on his position as president. If not for fear of being forcefully evicted (he lost the support of the army) he would not have resigned.

 

[mali]

deleted

 

[raven]

What about our extreme charity and foreign aide?

If you had read my previous post you would have seen that in percentages of national income you really don't spend that much...

Korea? 'Nam? Soviets in Afghanistan?

Question is, do the people that live there think you helped them or used them as a battlefield to settle your conflict with the commies? Getting bombed really pisses people of you know that?

The Gulf War? And please, Hussein in the 80s, honestly, are you going to tell me that the Ayatollahs were any better? Lesser of two evils. Israel, if you haven't noticed, is surrounded by psychopaths, and if you had cracked open a history book as of late, you'd know that we give all that money to Egypt because we practically own them. Now not only do they stay out of Israel, but we use it as an offshore torture facility, which is a good thing for our national security interests.

Again, you are missing the point, feeling it is your right to 'play around' in other countries to secure your interests is what makes people feel used, powerless and oppressed. Since they can't fight your superior army they will book a flight...
I also suggest you read a history book that hasn't been pre-approved; our history books still fail to mention we oppressed Indonesia. We never went to war to keep the natives in check, we just had some 'police actions'

And if you're gonna criticize anyone for fucking up the Pacific, Africa, and the Middle East, look no further than the British Empire. Have those jackasses clean it up. :lol:

This is the only part of your posts that makes sense: Yes we are all guilty of that crap but fortunately for Europe our sins are not as recent as yours (actually we are still doing it but we are more covert ). Ours have almost been forgotten and forgiven. The USA however is making the same mistakes we made in the past and is making them now. Therefore everybody hates you, not us.

 

[Klepto]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Musharraf was as evil as Hussein, just that he was a second dictator who was trying to get more / hang onto his power, supported by the USA, which seems strange because at the time they were liberating another nation from a dictator they had previously supported.

No need to apologise, and I agree that his last years in power were far from praiseworthy. I do think that he was more motivated by a (sometimes misguided) desire to serve his country than a quest for personal power, but that's just an opinion.

 

[senquack]

I'd like to apologize to everyone outside the USA, on behalf of the USA, for Chronotriggerfan.

 

[alterdimension]

I'd like to apologize to everyone outside the USA, on behalf of the USA, for Chronotriggerfan.

After reading all the messages on this site today, I feel nothing but disgust and loathing. I read nothing but self - centered anti-american garbage . We owe no one outside the U.S. an apology. Everyone in Europe who is not loyal to the U.S. deserves what's coming by way of chaos and people who think their religion
is the only way. Get ready, cause your real enemy has been colonizing quietly in europe for years. The Mullahs are gleefully and maleviolently seeing the begining of their long term plans of European home-grown terror,war, and possible anhilation. We, as an American nation, see the hand writing on the wall.
That is why we took action in Iraqi/Afganistan conflict. Europeans, if judged by history usually throw both arms up in air when tyrany beckons. God save us all from apathy.

 

[PoisonedV]

The first time I've heard about Obama I thought "this guy has not even a chance to become President because he's Black and Americans are a bunch of racists"

I'm glad I've been wrong about you

you aren't, this proves nothing and racism is just more evident now.

My granddad a world war II veteran is looking over my shoulder. He is pissed. Afer the U.S. has bailed europe out of two world wars including loss of his blood and his brothers at arms, so you can spout your ingratitued and false views about who the U.S. You Really owe him and his fellow soldiers, Cause you all would be speeking german if it weren't for him and other Americans. You better build up your own national defenses becuase pouring into social programs will not save you from total destruction, be safe then enjoy your social prgrams. And apathy will not bring us over to bail you out again.

I doubt that he actually exists, and is made up as an excuse to further your arguement. having a family member fighting in a war doesn't automatically validate your bullshit. (my grandpa fought in ww2, uncle in vietnam, cousin in iraq, etc)

Obama is going to cut defense spending by 25% and will also cut spending for the fbi and cia. You have to ask yourself what would we do without the the military and fbi and cia. 9/11 might happen again only this time it won't be airplanes.

you are being spoon fed fear. if the fbi and cia are so nessecary, and it 'might' happen again but it wont be planes, why are they spending all their money on airport security (and rights violation)

Also, nobody would dare attack the U.S., given its nuclear capabilities. There are enough missiles there to destroy every person on Earth. Twice.

more lies the US tells you to make you feel safe. we aren't prepared for a nuclear war. we aren't prepared for large scale military combat. we lack the technology, numbers, and money.

I'd like to apologize to everyone outside the USA, on behalf of the USA, for Chronotriggerfan.

+1

 

[DaveC]

Hi,

I'm just popping in to say CONGRATULATIONS to all Americans voters here

The first time I've heard about Obama I thought "this guy has not even a chance to become President because he's Black and Americans are a bunch of racists"

I'm glad I've been wrong about you

Bye, Magic Sam


I know what you mean. Even though I am an American when I heard that Obama was running I thought to myself : "this guy has not even a chance to become President because he's Black and Americans are a bunch of racists" :lol:

What is even more amazing is that Obama's father was a MUSLIM and his middle name is HUSSEIN. I thought there is no way this guy has a chance. A black guy with a middle name as in Saddam HUSSEIN, a last name with one letter different than "Osama" as in Bin Laden. This time we chose hope over fear, temperment over bluster, pragmatism over flash. Obama didn't just eke out a slim win, he won in a near landslide.

Already I hear of nations that were alienated by Bush's arrogance and hubris looking forward to dialogue with Obama and the USA to talk peace over war and solve problems with diplomacy. I also know of Obama as he is a senator in my state. His willingness to make peace and show respect to other nations is real, not just a campaign slogan.

I guess there is hope for America yet. I can be proud of my country again. Goodbye neocons...

Ever considered that things like 9/11 happen because your military, FBI and CIA keep pissing on other people's territory? Besides, just what did your expensive military and intelligence system do to prevent 9/11 form happening? Apparently the only thing they can do is see weapons of mass destruction that aren't really there...

Threatening people only works as long as you have the upper hand. It will keep people from attacking you in the open (no direct warfare) but will also make people feel oppressed and oppressed people resort to desperate measures like terrorist attacks...

I'm not defending terrorism and I think 9/11 was a terrible tragedy, but I do think it was a result of US international politics. The USA needs to interact with the planet in a different way and I hope Obama has the courage to lead you in the right direction.

You are right. What you are saying is basically what Rev. Wright, Obamas pastor, was saying when he got blasted for saying the truth.

The phrase "God damn America" and "chickens come home to roost" was picked out and used as a political bludgeon against Obama and it almost cost him the election. I listened to the whole sermon on you tube. Wright basically said as you just said 9/11 was a result of my countries tendency to push it's weight around and meddle in affairs that it should be more cautious of. While his sermon was passionate and fiery, I didn't hear anything that wasn't true. Sometimes the truth hurts.

You kids are kidding, right? Of all the good the US has done for the world, which is more than any other nation in the history of the world, you're going to nitpick that shit? Name me one country that's done more good for the world than America. Exactly, you can't.

The US has done alot of good in the world. It has also fucked things up alot too. Just look what we did to Iraq, we left that country in ruins. We killed tens of thousands of civillians and left millions homeless (although you wouldn't know it here due to the filter of the media, we don't see the pictures of the wailing mother holding her bloody lifeless child in her arms in front of their destroyed village caused by our bombs). And for what? oil? retribution for Bush's daddy? A way to funnel US taxpayer's dollars to the military industrial complex? All of the above? Please stop with the flag waving we are the best rhetoric. You can be patriotic, but also admit when our country is wrong.

 

[andyB911]

Already I hear of nations that were alienated by Bush's arrogance and hubris looking forward to dialogue with Obama and the USA to talk peace over war and solve problems with diplomacy. I also know of Obama as he is a senator in my state. His willingness to make peace and show respect to other nations is real, not just a campaign slogan.

I think this is definitely true - he has very high approval ratings in Europe, and from what I've read most of the rest of the world.

Unfortunately, rather than be able to concentrate on foreign affairs, his priority will be the economy. Lets hope he can find some great advisors, as from what I've heard to date, this is probably not his strongest area of expertise.

Lets face it, who ever won was going to be lumped with a bit of a nightmare. When taxes go up, unemployment continues to grow and recession becomes very evident, it will be interesting to see if his popularity within the US continues. Its pretty much guaranteed that he will be popular outside the US irrespective, but inside... we'll have to wait and see how he deals with the economy. And no easy solutions there...

Not sure I'd bet on him making a second term.

 

[Klepto]

It's probably better if I don't comment on matters of politics

It looks like I've failed, the recent statements of two particular people compell me to post. If I go too far then could the mods please delete this post. I only hope I don't offend anyone who doesn't deserve to be offended.

I'd like to apologize to everyone outside the USA, on behalf of the USA, for Chronotriggerfan.

Appreciated, you may want to extend that to include alterdimension, who certainly does not seem to exist in our reality.

After reading all the messages on this site today, I feel nothing but disgust and loathing.

Do you hate everyone who disagrees with you?

I read nothing but self - centered anti-american garbage .

Strange that, I see a lot of intelligent posts that strive to maintain a sense of balance. Are you saying for example that my assertion that US servicemen made a heroic and important contribution in WW2 is self-centred anti-American garbage? There have been anti-American comments, but there is also a recognition and even praise for the positive aspects of your nation.

We owe no one outside the U.S. an apology.

How about them?

Everyone in Europe who is not loyal to the U.S. deserves what's coming by way of chaos and people who think their religion
is the only way.

You would have us pledge allegiance to your flag? I for one will not pay homage to false gods whether they be Islamic, Christian or American. Your understanding of the tensions between the west and the middle east seems at best shallow and more than a little skewed. That's fine for you, but for many years the same one dimensional misconceptions have been propagated in order to claim legitimacy for your country's disastrous and sometimes malign foreign policy.

Get ready, cause your real enemy has been colonizing quietly in europe for years. The Mullahs are gleefully and maleviolently seeing the begining of their long term plans of European home-grown terror,war, and possible anhilation.

In the 'old world' we have been slaughtering each other for millenia, we have developed a realistic pragmatism when it comes to these things. While I won't go so far as to speak out in support of the Islamic fundamentalists I can understand their point of view and it's nothing like what's represented in the western media. USian nationalists should (for obvious reasons) be very careful when talking about colonisation and the annihilation of a race of man.

We, as an American nation, see the hand writing on the wall.

So does everyone else, but many of us think it says something very different.

That is why we took action in Iraqi/Afganistan conflict.

I reserve judgement on the Afghan campaign, I'll only say that you are now fighting the same people you supported against the Soviets, and for the same reasons the Soviets fought them. The last person to successfully conquer Afghanistan was Alexander the Great.

As for Iraq, your statement is ludicrous. Are you trying to tell me that the US invaded a secular state that did more than any country in the Islamic world to curb the power of the mullahs, that was the arch-enemy of Iranian theocracy, in order to prevent the spread of Islamic fundamentalism? Please explain in more detail your views on the invasion of Iraq so we can rip them to shreds.

Europeans, if judged by history usually throw both arms up in air when tyrany beckons. God save us all from apathy.

...And god save us from self-righteous imperialistic warmongers.