Transfers... Tranzfers..

[MDave]

Chip's suggestion is, in a more politically correct way, saying "If you don't want to do a bank transfer, F-OFF, we don't need to make you one."
No, my suggestion is that if it is impossible to take CC orders, we should stop trying to find increasingly sketchy solutions and face the fact that it is impossible to take CC orders at this time. If you think about it for half a minute, it is obvious that the more Pandoras we can sell, the better. If there were any way to take CC orders now, we would. We've already tried several options, and all of them have fallen through.

You're too nervous to use a bank transfer? Then don't. We're not trying to force anybody to use transfers, it's just that transfers are the only way we can accept payment at this time. If that's a problem, then wait and order a Pandora when they're in stock. We'd love to make one for you now, but if you are not able to use a payment method that we are able to accept, then you'll have to wait a bit. It's that simple.


Answer this simple question: Prior to taking pre-orders did OP take the common sense business step of speaking with their commercial banking officer to see if their plan to take CC's on this project was acceptable?

If yes, and then Bank changed course after the order, then it is the Bank's fault.

If no, then it is OP's fault.

If the latter, then we ordered based on your directions and based on what you said was an acceptable payment form. As a result, please feel free to refund the balance of what I paid and I will be happy to wait.

Again, this is not a question of what you CAN do now. It's a question of what you said you COULD do then. We ordered based on your instructions. If there is a loss due to YOUR error, then, as a company, you should do the correct thing.


I thought the problem was the 30 day thing, where they have to deliver the product within 30 days of a customer making a CC purchase? Similar to what happened with paypal? I guess the bank involved wasn't informed that it would longer then 30 days until later on when they started refunding. Now they can't use CC's as a payment option until it's confirmed that it will be delivered to customers within 30 days of purchasing.

The fault on the Open Pandora's side is they too didn't know about this 30 day limit (as seen with what happened with paypal) included CC orders too. I think?

 

[Hotcooler]

My lord.. Daryoon... What do you want? You want the loss form exchange rate crysis to be refunded? I believe that's not gonna happen anyway. And it is a question what you can do NOW. Not what you could do then. stop bithing about the past. If you cant do the bank trasfer WAIT. If you dont want to - go elsewhere and stop bitching.

 

[calzone]

You don't preorder a non-existing, not yet finished product with protection. That is incompatible terms.

what absolute nonsense! I PRE-order games every month from game/gamestation etc, and have bought all my games consoles etc online using a PRE-order!

At the time I order there is never a physical console to ship, only something in manufacture.

The difference is that these companies do NOT charge the card until the item is ready to ship. They do not NEED my cash to buy the product they want to sell me!

It is a GENUINE worry that OPENPANDORA does not seem to have a sound and secure financial basis, as they CANNOT build the pandora with their own money (or the banks money), they need MY money to be able to do this.

Now forgive me but this does not an ideal situation from a consumers point of view does it? The consumer protection laws here in the UK are there to protect us, the consumers, and openpandora seem to be trying to work out ways to bypass these protections just to get the money to build the consoles!

Get some finance, build the pandora units, charge the credit cards on shipping then pay off the finance. Simple. (and secure!)

 

[Daryoon]

Chip's suggestion is, in a more politically correct way, saying "If you don't want to do a bank transfer, F-OFF, we don't need to make you one."
No, my suggestion is that if it is impossible to take CC orders, we should stop trying to find increasingly sketchy solutions and face the fact that it is impossible to take CC orders at this time. If you think about it for half a minute, it is obvious that the more Pandoras we can sell, the better. If there were any way to take CC orders now, we would. We've already tried several options, and all of them have fallen through.

You're too nervous to use a bank transfer? Then don't. We're not trying to force anybody to use transfers, it's just that transfers are the only way we can accept payment at this time. If that's a problem, then wait and order a Pandora when they're in stock. We'd love to make one for you now, but if you are not able to use a payment method that we are able to accept, then you'll have to wait a bit. It's that simple.


Answer this simple question: Prior to taking pre-orders did OP take the common sense business step of speaking with their commercial banking officer to see if their plan to take CC's on this project was acceptable?

If yes, and then Bank changed course after the order, then it is the Bank's fault.

If no, then it is OP's fault.

If the latter, then we ordered based on your directions and based on what you said was an acceptable payment form. As a result, please feel free to refund the balance of what I paid and I will be happy to wait.

Again, this is not a question of what you CAN do now. It's a question of what you said you COULD do then. We ordered based on your instructions. If there is a loss due to YOUR error, then, as a company, you should do the correct thing.


I thought the problem was the 30 day thing, where they have to deliver the product within 30 days of a customer making a CC purchase? Similar to what happened with paypal? I guess the bank involved wasn't informed that it would longer then 30 days until later on when they started refunding. Now they can't use CC's as a payment option until it's confirmed that it will be delivered to customers within 30 days of purchasing.

The fault on the Open Pandora's side is they too didn't know about this 30 day limit (as seen with what happened with paypal) included CC orders too. I think?


I'd say that is a pretty plausible explanation that would concisely go back to them not talking to the Bank beforehand.

Like I said elsewhere, I am not suggesting ill intent, but that business acumen was likely not exercised. IF that is the case, the risk and loss shouldn't be thrust on the buyers.

The real problem is that all of the above would be moot IF their prior claims were accurate that they didn't need preorder money to make these things. If that was accurate, they could build them and we could pay them within 30 days of shipping. However, it now appears that prior representation may not be true, which creates a big mess.

The fanbois just want to say, "deal with it". Maybe the fanbois should understand that the reason that some, like me, want to see things done "right" and communications to be more "open and accurate" are specifically because we want to see the project succeed. This kind of stuff is not going to help that.

I want it to succeed; I want to pay for a unit (God knows I have done everything asked by OP). But OP needs to be accountable - stop blaming the Bank, stop telling me my e-mail doesn't work, stop telling the community things that turn out to be wholly inaccurate (see above).

 

[MDave]

You don't preorder a non-existing, not yet finished product with protection. That is incompatible terms.

what absolute nonsense! I PRE-order games every month from game/gamestation etc, and have bought all my games consoles etc online using a PRE-order!

At the time I order there is never a physical console to ship, only something in manufacture.

The difference is that these companies do NOT charge the card until the item is ready to ship. They do not NEED my cash to buy the product they want to sell me!

It is a GENUINE worry that OPENPANDORA does not seem to have a sound and secure financial basis, as they CANNOT build the pandora with their own money (or the banks money), they need MY money to be able to do this.

Now forgive me but this does not an ideal situation from a consumers point of view does it? The consumer protection laws here in the UK are there to protect us, the consumers, and openpandora seem to be trying to work out ways to bypass these protections just to get the money to build the consoles!

Get some finance, build the pandora units, charge the credit cards on shipping then pay off the finance. Simple. (and secure!)


Look on the main site's news post, and where I highlighted:

QUOTE
However, we also got some good news for you AMEX guys: We know you didn't get your money back yet (we're having another meeting with the bank in the near future), however, we assure you that EVERYBODY WHO ORDERED AND PAID will get a Pandora, even if you didn't get the chance to reorder yet!


They can't blatantly lie about that now, can they? They have the finance to produce pandora's for everyone who ordered.

Why are people still talking about this?

 

[Hotcooler]

You don't preorder a non-existing, not yet finished product with protection. That is incompatible terms.

what absolute nonsense! I PRE-order games every month from game/gamestation etc, and have bought all my games consoles etc online using a PRE-order!

At the time I order there is never a physical console to ship, only something in manufacture.

The difference is that these companies do NOT charge the card until the item is ready to ship. They do not NEED my cash to buy the product they want to sell me!

It is a GENUINE worry that OPENPANDORA does not seem to have a sound and secure financial basis, as they CANNOT build the pandora with their own money (or the banks money), they need MY money to be able to do this.

Now forgive me but this does not an ideal situation from a consumers point of view does it? The consumer protection laws here in the UK are there to protect us, the consumers, and openpandora seem to be trying to work out ways to bypass these protections just to get the money to build the consoles!

Get some finance, build the pandora units, charge the credit cards on shipping then pay off the finance. Simple. (and secure!)



Ok. Now tell me where couple of people can get 1milion USD theese times. Financial Crysis you know.. Plus I dont know any bank that will give you that sort of money anyway. And you perfectly knew how it works. If you dont it's you fault that you cant read and think. If you dont like this go buy eeePC or something...

People you missing the point... It's not a big company. It can not afford some stuff. And if you dont like the project you allways can go somewhere else. First off you need to think when you buy stuff. If you dont know what you're doing. WAIT and if all plays ok - buy from second batch. I was aware of the situation and I'm willingle invested in the project.

 

[jbr]

The lack of a final, official decision is the most troubling thing, I think. You simply cannot expect people to order over the internet using wire transfers exclusively. Credit card ordering is a standard practice, and I think they really just need to make up their minds about how they are going to make it work, and then do it!

Personally, I really like the idea of being sent some small item in the mail, because it will give me some idea of how long it will take my Pandora to arrive after it ships!

 

[calzone]

No, my suggestion is that if it is impossible to take CC orders, we should stop trying to find increasingly sketchy solutions and face the fact that it is impossible to take CC orders at this time. If you think about it for half a minute, it is obvious that the more Pandoras we can sell, the better. If there were any way to take CC orders now, we would. We've already tried several options, and all of them have fallen through.

So are you saying that anyone who does not use a bank transfer and wants to wait and use a credit card, will lose their place for a pandora and it will be a free-for-all come the launch day? If that's the correct understanding then what a great kick in the teeth for the loyal (but slightly worried about losing £200 of hard earned cash) initial pre-order customers who've already paid and been refunded?

Why can't openpandora do what all the other online companies do? Namely accept a pre-order with credit card on the understanding that the card isn't charged until the item ships?! At least this way openpandora KNOW how much money they have to come in and can budget accordingly. The customer is also happy as they retain their place in the queue and have the satisfaction of paying with a card.

So I guess I don't understand why it's we "cant" offer a credit card reordering system, when it maybe should be we "won't" because we need the money up front?!!!

If they can't do this then why not? Is it because they do not have enough money to make a build 4000 units without our money up front? In which case THAT is a big issue and will result in an understandable lack of faith in any company who has to work like this.

 

[Hotcooler]

calzone And That's why you all missing the point and this thread need to be closed.

 

[Eniko]

Why can't openpandora do what all the other online companies do? Namely accept a pre-order with credit card on the understanding that the card isn't charged until the item ships?! At least this way openpandora KNOW how much money they have to come in and can budget accordingly. The customer is also happy as they retain their place in the queue and have the satisfaction of paying with a card.
Someone earlier in the thread stated that they can't do that because OpenPandora ltd falls under EU regulations and under EU regulations you need to be a financial institution to be able to retain credit card information. (and they added that yes, Amazon qualifies as that which is why they can do it)

 

[javaJake]

Why can't openpandora do what all the other online companies do? Namely accept a pre-order with credit card on the understanding that the card isn't charged until the item ships?! At least this way openpandora KNOW how much money they have to come in and can budget accordingly. The customer is also happy as they retain their place in the queue and have the satisfaction of paying with a card.
This means they'd have to store your credit card in their system for a period of a month. Most, if not all, online stores don't do this, and probably for good reasons.

So I guess I don't understand why it's we "cant" offer a credit card reordering system, when it maybe should be we "won't" because we need the money up front?!!!
Again with the conspiracy theories! They don't need your money. Need proof? Walk away! See if they continue on without you.

They've tried every single well-known and trusted credit card option available to them. PayPal, Google Checkout, banks. They simply cannot accept your credit-card money at this time.

If they can't do this then why not? Is it because they do not have enough money to make a build 4000 units without our money up front? In which case THAT is a big issue and will result in an understandable lack of faith in any company who has to work like this.
It's a business, and every business wants money. It's just the way things work.

Now, take OpenPandora: they accepted pre-orders to see how many people would apply. They ended up increasing the shipping counts. But then they got hit hard by the bank, and they were forced to release all pre-order money sent in via credit card. Now it's natural to try and regain that money somehow.

It's at this point where I would be willing to question the methods by which they are accepting money through credit-cards. I agree that using a CD or some other item is a pretty rushed idea, and they should think very, very carefully about what they do before they do it.

According to everything we've been told, they are financially secure. Why is it so bad that they continue to try and regain their pre-order money nonetheless? Who wouldn't want to finally be rewarded for a very difficult project?

This whole thing is really wearing at my patience. People don't seem to be really thinking, or they seem to think that everyone needs to see the "light". I don't know. Whatever it is, it's really aggravating.

 

[ttcircus]

So, 24 pages of replies! Jeez Louise!
I re-pre-ordered, I'm not gonna ask for a refund because I wanna trust those guys and believe i will, eventually, get my pandora.
But here we are, there are a lot of people here who I can see are getting nervous and are very close from giving up.
And on top of that there is an obvious lack of communication around here.
I see Chip, the PR, is trying his best to give informations, thanks for that. But does the team actually give you any informations or are you just speculating?
I understand the situation is pretty difficult for the team at the moment; but please also understand a lot of customers are worried.
The solution is VERY easy: put an official post on the openpandora.org main page, keep people informed! Don't leave them in the dark trying to find out by themselves how to turn the lights on. This whole project is pretty much based on trust, so please give some informations.
I've paid, I just have to wait, but there are a lot of people here who just don't know what to do.
Communicate more. And not only in the forums.
Thanks and good luck.

 

[DCillusion]

calzone And That's why you all missing the point and this thread need to be closed.

I don't think this thread will close until the community starts focusing on what should be done, rather than complain about what's happened. I'm as mad as anybody, & I think the point of the thread is that this has gotten over the Dev's heads. They need help with a solution. People should be allowed to vent; it's vital. A lot of people say "Don't bitch! Just don't Buy?" Is that what you want? The fact of the matter is that the Open Pandora team needs money. Money from the U.S., from the U.K., from Australia. Without this money, nobody gets a Pandora; regardless of how normal bank transfers happen to be in some countries. So complaining keeps it right here, & away from our wallets.

Why can't openpandora do what all the other online companies do? Namely accept a pre-order with credit card on the understanding that the card isn't charged until the item ships?! At least this way openpandora KNOW how much money they have to come in and can budget accordingly. The customer is also happy as they retain their place in the queue and have the satisfaction of paying with a card.
Someone earlier in the thread stated that they can't do that because OpenPandora ltd falls under EU regulations and under EU regulations you need to be a financial institution to be able to retain credit card information. (and they added that yes, Amazon qualifies as that which is why they can do it)

Amazon is also American. As has been stated before, CC's are so normal here that different rules apply.

 

[javaJake]

The fact of the matter is that the Open Pandora team needs money. Money from the U.S., from the U.K., from Australia. Without this money, nobody gets a Pandora; regardless of how normal bank transfers happen to be in some countries. So complaining keeps it right here, & away from our wallets.
At some point they may need money in the future, but right now they don't need it, not for the first batch at least.

 

[marshal]

+1 Communication is the main problem here.
They should be trying to calm everyone down ! They should have said long ago that they are looking for the best possible solution and then actually find a solution even if it isn't perfect. Then posting some official statement on the homepage in a reasonable mount of time.

 

[sam fisher]

The fact of the matter is that the Open Pandora team needs money. Money from the U.S., from the U.K., from Australia. Without this money, nobody gets a Pandora; regardless of how normal bank transfers happen to be in some countries. So complaining keeps it right here, & away from our wallets.
At some point they may need money in the future, but right now they don't need it, not for the first batch at least.

What evidence do you base that conclusion on?

 

[MDave]

The fact of the matter is that the Open Pandora team needs money. Money from the U.S., from the U.K., from Australia. Without this money, nobody gets a Pandora; regardless of how normal bank transfers happen to be in some countries. So complaining keeps it right here, & away from our wallets.
At some point they may need money in the future, but right now they don't need it, not for the first batch at least.

What evidence do you base that conclusion on?

Check my post at the bottom of page 23.

 

[calzone]

They don't need your money. Need proof? Walk away! See if they continue on without you.

So with the money they have right now, they can produce 4000 pandoras? They don't NEED any more money to be able to produce them? Is this correct? Where has this been stated by the devs? If they don't NEED the money then why are they trying to sort out half arsed solutions such as a 'cd' or gift voucher! Nonsense!

If so then fine, great, get them made and give all the previous pre-order folk who paid their money last time assurance that they will still get a Pandora at launch (or as they are made I guess) and can pay by credit card?

They have not however said this have they!

Oh and the communication of this business is just appalling. This 24 page thread could have been cut in it's tracks at the end of page 1 with a clear communication from the team. The fact that they have said NOTHING for days does not help us less trusting customers feel at ease.

 

[stustaff]

I think them taking pre orders via credit card and then charging the card once ready to ship seems to make total sense and a lot of places do it, the stuff about only financial institutions being able to do it is wrong. of the top of my head from previous purchases Amazon - yes, advanced mp3 players - yes, HMV - Yes, Game - Yes and many others where I have preordered months in advance and then got billed the day they ship it.

The concern of a company 'sstoring your card details' is a non issue as they store them whenever you make a purchase anyway for around 3 years, all companies do this.

HOWEVER all of the above means they wouldnt get any funds until they have the units ready to ship so we are left with the question of do OP have enough funds to make all of the Pandoras before receiving any more money? Some posts by Craig do seem to lean towards saying yes they do but I dont think anyone(from OP) has stated that for definite?

And please people stop talking about investing and community!

I saw info on the pandora on engadget and went to the OP page and ordered it a couple of weeks later from a company called open pandora via an online shop! nowhere in that whole process was I told I was doing anything other than pre-ordering an item from a shop!

 

[.Gogeta§§J4BR.]

just tell me something, why can't they just open another bank account, in other bank?

just warn the purpose of the account, when opening it, so they know what kind of use it will have!
you are not the only small company that has to deal with high values, the problem is only in your current specific bank.