Transfers... Tranzfers..

[jake37]

Hey Craig, I'm writing this here because PM'ing doesn't work.

I hope you're listening. I'm also afraid you aren't.

I'm seriously wondering why you keep posting to meaningless threads about avatars and grammar instead of calming down the crowd at the pinned thread that you yourself started.

I can't help being worried about the general state of affairs, with you stirring a dangerous potion and then walking away and letting the pot overboil.

 

[sam fisher]

It would seem that they don't in fact have the money to start production and we may have been lied to. Can't help but wonder if the delays have been lies aswell and we're being blagged, I'm good at blagging and I can spot it a mile off. Sorry if I keep posting negative comments on here but it's getting me down how the communication seems to be dwindling away.

If only they had gone on Dragons Den like I suggested h34r:

 

[conso]

Hey Craig, I'm writing this here because PM'ing doesn't work.

I hope you're listening. I'm also afraid you aren't.

I'm seriously wondering why you keep posting to meaningless threads about avatars and grammar instead of calming down the crowd at the pinned thread that you yourself started.

I can't help being worried about the general state of affairs, with you stirring a dangerous potion and then walking away and letting the pot overboil.

Isn't it obvious? He's waiting for good news about production before he will answer here. I'd do the same if good news are in reach.

 

[White Demon]

With regards to chip's post, do they only have enough funds to produce the 2000-odd Ps for people who have paid by bank transfer/google checkout or are they able to produce the full 4000?

If the latter is true, then why not re-open CC orders after all units are made for those who previously pre-ordered but have not been able to pay, with a limit of, say 2-3 weeks to pay for it. When they pay they are sent their originally promised unit, if they don't pay in those 2-3 weeks, once that time limit is up, the remaining unclaimed P's can be regarded as 'in stock' items to be sold to whoever orders it.

If the former is true and they can only produce 2000 units, while the gift certificate option could be a way around the 30-day thing, since everyone gets what they pay for (a gift certificate) straight away, it may be more productive for Craig & co to just get on and release as many as they can, as every day they spend looking for other options to pay by is another day that final production is delayed.

 

[stustaff]

Isn't it obvious? He's waiting for good news about production before he will answer here. I'd do the same if good news are in reach.

obvious? youd do the same...personally I think waiting and saying nothing after dropping a bombshell like this seems the worst possible course of action.

I think it would make more sense to post a statement of intent something along the lines of.

'We are struggling to find a way to get CC payments accepted, we will continue looking. However this may mean that those who pay by BT jump ahead of those unable to pay so far by CC. Those who reserved by CC are still guarenteed their pandora however if we cant get the money it may mean more of a delay than if your willing to pay by bank transfer! for details of how to pay by BT go here (link).
The current progress situation in terms of manafacture is - BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Thankyou for your patiece and once again we apologise for these problems we are doing our best to make everyone happy and to get the first pandoras shipped.'

that would seem proffesional and be more useful than the complete silence on the subject we have received so far.
Im no expert but seems obvious to me?

 

[TaG]

That's a bit radical stustaff. You can't go saying things like that here. Just because that is what everybody else would do. Anyway, it would be good if OP did repeat stustaff's words as they are far better than has ben said so far.

Did I mention how fucking depressing this all is? I did? Well it hasn't improved any.

 

[Mithrildor]

this is getting ridiculous. as much as i want this thing to succeed, if we havent had a proper explanation and if things havent moved forward significantly in 1 weeks time im getting my refund. i know its a small team but the communication between them and us is absolutely appauling.

Well just wait till things get sorted out. I wanted to stop my pandora story to when they told us about the refunds. I thought this was just a sacam. But I did it and my money isnt stolen yet.

 

[Daryoon]

Guys, I want this to happen as much as the next guy, but the pissing on the Bank is also getting a little bit old. The Bank did not reverse refund these orders for no reason. Anyone who works in a legal profession or banking (or a combination of the two) knows this.

I am also not sure why we are so implicitly happy to lay blame at the feet of the Bank and wholly allow OP off the hook. Perhaps blame should be shared between the two, but we need to be honest: OP has not been straightforward on MANY things (i.e. we are fully funded and don't need preorders to build the first batch), etc.

From experience, I would guess the most likely scenario relative to the Bank is this: Craigix/OP has an account with the Bank. Craigix/OP has no ill intent or intent to deceive. HOWEVER, rather than doing what most businesses would do (particularly on a start-up project likely to see a large and sudden infusion of cash), OP does not communicate with the Bank (and particularly a commercial loan officer) about their business, their business plan, the amount and size of the funds about to hit and WHERE (i.e. all over the world) the money is going to come from.

Quite simply, Craigix/OP just thought/assumed they could use their normal everyday account without following the common-sensical pre-steps for the project.

Now, if OP would have been obtaining a loan from the Bank for the project, the Bank would have been advised of all of this advance. Since they were not going that route, they would have needed to actively and affirmatively advise the Bank of same in advance to get clearance/approval.

Now, there are a couple of possibilities. OP are business noobs and they didn't think to do the foregoing. Or, they thought about the foregoing but were aware they could not produce a product in a set time, etc which would lead the Bank to reject allowing them to do it (just like paypal, et al are rejecting for the same reason) ... so they didn't say anything and just did it anyway and hoped it would fly.

In other words, they flung the risk on their customers. It didn't fly. They asked the customers to bear the risk under this ongoing and now tiring explanation of "You are not buying a completed product, you know the risk, etc etc).

The FOREGOING is a more plausible scenario than the Bank simply decided to refund and be asses. The Banks are generally cognizant, particularly in these markets, of potential liability to consumers. The Bank, right, wrong or otherwise, would not have done what it did just for the sake of it.

I believe what the customers would like, at this point, is some honesty. Many of us, whether as long time lurkers who had GP32s, 2Xs, etc, would continue to support the project even if things looked shitty. We just want honesty.

BUT: (1) We are tired of being lied too (We have money to build all of the units, it's all the Bank's fault, etc); (2) We are tired of being told the risk is all ours; (3) We are tired of being told how to do things in a half-ass manner because OP decides to gamble and then being told it was our fault for LISTENING AND DOING what we are told; and (3) although minute, I am tired of being told that I am not receiving refund and other emails because of some issue on my side (I have no issues getting email, I had no issues getting my confirmation email and other emails from Pandora. If I didn't get an email, you likely didn't send it).

Now, maybe someone should add this to the FAQ instead of the constant references to how we should suck it up, WE took the risk (not OP).

 

[Username]

BUT: (1) We are tired of being lied too (We have money to build all of the units, it's all the Bank's fault, etc); (2) We are tired of being told the risk is all ours; (3) We are tired of being told how to do things in a half-ass manner because OP decides to gamble and then being told it was our fault for LISTENING AND DOING what we are told; and (3) although minute, I am tired of being told that I am not receiving refund and other emails because of some issue on my side (I have no issues getting email, I had no issues getting my confirmation email and other emails from Pandora. If I didn't get an email, you likely didn't send it).

Now, maybe someone should add this to the FAQ instead of the constant references to how we should suck it up, WE took the risk (not OP).

(1) You are not being lied to. Where did you even get this from? (2) The people telling you that the risk is all yours are not the OP team, you're being told by preorderers. (3) No one ever blamed preorderers, and (3 - learn to number) if there is an issue on your side it then the issue is probably with your bank (hence your side). It's not a matter of not being able to receive emails.

Also, the FAQ doesn't say anywhere that preorderers should suck it up, but you did take a risk in investing in an incomplete product.

 

[mcqfesijiba2]

Honestly, at this point, I don't care about any lies, bank stupidity, poor communication, poor decisions, etc that may or may not have happened or by whom. I basically want the device I paid for (or tried to lol) and I still think the end product will be worth purchasing and that ultimately Craig and the team want to do this right. Sometimes, there's no gain without a little bit of pain.

I may bite the bullet and give the recommended solution, tranzfers.com, a look soon. All the ethnocentrism in here about international bank transfers aside, they just aren't a good solution through our banks in the US. Hopefully karma will all even out and we'll get some better product stability than some commercial products have had in the past. PS2 Disk Read Errors, XBox360 RROD, etc. I eventually suffered the former beyond warranty and hoping to avoid the latter on my less than a month old 360 (Falcon chipset)

 

[MDave]

Holy crap people are blowing this way out of proportion.

Craig was asking for ideas from the community, but as soon as chip posts his take on the best way to handle the situation, people go nuts misunderstanding it to be official.

This thread has long gone with the original question asked, and become a place to complain. Do you think craig wants to spend the time to read a 20+ page thread full of people moaning when there is little constructive discussion going on?

 

[DCillusion]

The banks returned the money for one reason. The product didn't ship within 30 days. That's been place for a decade, at least. It isn't some evil banker laughing as he/she hits the refund key. God, it's, probably, completely automated.

Here's what happened. The Pandora team looked in the account, saw the money missing, & went storming to the bank. The banker, unaware any of this, looked up the account, & saw the issue. The "talking to a brick wall" argument comes from The bank explaining that there was nothing they could do to reverse this until the status of the Pandora changes.

And you know, they're right. Where's the completed prototype? Instead of lawyers, they might have gotten farther by having a completed Pandora & saying, "This is what we're selling". Instead of, "We're selling a dream. A dream where everybody can bootleg any ROM from the early 90's, & one day, we might be able to build such a device".

We deserve the same thing. I'd be willing to jump through a lot more hoops if I knew I was going to land on something. We were promised a Pandora update this week, not a financial update. If there is a Pandora, at all, then I'm fairly certain they have the funds to build ONE. Build it, display it, & then ask for a bank transfer. It would sure make this news easier to swallow.

 

[dentrado]

gift certificate +1

 

[DCillusion]

Holy crap people are blowing this way out of proportion.

Craig was asking for ideas from the community, but as soon as chip posts his take on the best way to handle the situation, people go nuts misunderstanding it to be official.

This thread has long gone with the original question asked, and become a place to complain. Do you think craig wants to spend the time to read a 20+ page thread full of people moaning when there is little constructive discussion going on?

If this was the intention, we should put a poll at the top of the thread listing all available options for the community to vote.

 

[javaJake]

Everyone needs to calm down and take a look at the situation. It's really quite simple:

• You can wait.
• You can use one of the available payment options.
• If you don't like any of the above, then you need to walk away from the computer and think about whether you want to continue to invest your time and worry into the Pandora.

Everyone has lost money in this, and that has frayed a lot of nerves, but everyone needs to remain calm, stop posting questions/objections for a while, think, and possibly research around this forum.

To those of you who think this is unfair or somehow you have been or will be ripped off, posting such thoughts here is going to produce chaos, anger, and a multitude of arguments in a single thread. If you're worried about your situation, and this thread does not already provide the details you need, please contact OpenPandora rather than here, where it will only add to the clutter. If he gets enough e-mails asking the same questions, it's in his best interests to post the answer here so that his inbox will be freed up.

 

[monvmentvm]

We deserve the same thing. I'd be willing to jump through a lot more hoops if I knew I was going to land on something. We were promised a Pandora update this week, not a financial update. If there is a Pandora, at all, then I'm fairly certain they have the funds to build ONE. Build it, display it, & then ask for a bank transfer. It would sure make this news easier to swallow.

First off: That's exactly what Chip said... Wait until they are ready and then you can pay using your beloved CCs. They won't force you to pay using bank transfer. So why the heck are all complaining?

From what I know there also was no promised update.

So come on guys... stop complaining for nothing. It won't speed up any progress anyway and the single goal you'll achieve by this, is a pissed off team because of lack of trust and a pissed off community, that's just flaming around why cc is so much more secure and the unexistant fact that openpandora "wants them" to pay via bank transfer.

It's been discussed a lot now... if you don't want to pay using bank transfer, just wait and you'll get the change to pay when the pandoras are out.

Edit: The post above mine has the same quintessence... think I was a bit slow :rolleyes:

 

[hells_dark]

First off: That's exactly what Chip said... Wait until they are ready and then you can pay using your beloved CCs. They won't force you to pay using bank transfer. So why the heck are all complaining?


Because CC orderers would lose their pre-order. They would get a 2nd batch pandora. At least, that's what i fear.

We all have to wait official news..

 

[Daryoon]

BUT: (1) We are tired of being lied too (We have money to build all of the units, it's all the Bank's fault, etc); (2) We are tired of being told the risk is all ours; (3) We are tired of being told how to do things in a half-ass manner because OP decides to gamble and then being told it was our fault for LISTENING AND DOING what we are told; and (3) although minute, I am tired of being told that I am not receiving refund and other emails because of some issue on my side (I have no issues getting email, I had no issues getting my confirmation email and other emails from Pandora. If I didn't get an email, you likely didn't send it).

Now, maybe someone should add this to the FAQ instead of the constant references to how we should suck it up, WE took the risk (not OP).

(1) You are not being lied to. Where did you even get this from? (2) The people telling you that the risk is all yours are not the OP team, you're being told by preorderers. (3) No one ever blamed preorderers, and (3 - learn to number) if there is an issue on your side it then the issue is probably with your bank (hence your side). It's not a matter of not being able to receive emails.

Also, the FAQ doesn't say anywhere that preorderers should suck it up, but you did take a risk in investing in an incomplete product.


(1) I provided specific examples; (2) OP told us not to chargeback, OP is the one providing the directions and Chip is the "voice" of OP and he has said EXACTLY that; (3) By telling us we are wrong to be upset over the acts and/or omissions of OP, you are in fact blaming us; and (4 - yes, I made a typo; your message, which is much shorter in length, has typing, grammatical and other errors, so learn not to be a smartass) there is no issue with my bank (they delivered payment as I directed, they accepted the forced refund when it was delivered). Finally, yes, OP has an e-mail issue on top of their communication issue (and my bank has nothing to do with their ability, or inability, to email).

There is no need to righteously defend what is going on. I am "invested" as much as you are in the project. When a company tells you how to do things and you do them HOW THEY TELL YOU, when there are screw-ups (and there have been several) and a total lack of substantive communication, they buyer has a right to call a spade a spade (or whatever cliche you want to use).

By the way, I did not receive a prospectus. I did not by shares. I did not invest in anything. I pre-ordered a product (which I have done on numerous occasions, foreign and domestic, big and small, including cutting edge technology items). No other company has ever handled things this way; no other company has requested I accept a "CD" so they can defraud a bank; etc.

If you are happy with things, fine. That is your opinion. But your contentment has nothing to do with whether others are right or wrong in demanding accountability. Particular when those people have done exactly what they were told to do.

 

[monvmentvm]

BUT: (1) We are tired of being lied too (We have money to build all of the units, it's all the Bank's fault, etc); (2) We are tired of being told the risk is all ours; (3) We are tired of being told how to do things in a half-ass manner because OP decides to gamble and then being told it was our fault for LISTENING AND DOING what we are told; and (3) although minute, I am tired of being told that I am not receiving refund and other emails because of some issue on my side (I have no issues getting email, I had no issues getting my confirmation email and other emails from Pandora. If I didn't get an email, you likely didn't send it).

Now, maybe someone should add this to the FAQ instead of the constant references to how we should suck it up, WE took the risk (not OP).

(1) You are not being lied to. Where did you even get this from? (2) The people telling you that the risk is all yours are not the OP team, you're being told by preorderers. (3) No one ever blamed preorderers, and (3 - learn to number) if there is an issue on your side it then the issue is probably with your bank (hence your side). It's not a matter of not being able to receive emails.

Also, the FAQ doesn't say anywhere that preorderers should suck it up, but you did take a risk in investing in an incomplete product.


(1) I provided specific examples; (2) OP told us not to chargeback, OP is the one providing the directions and Chip is the "voice" of OP and he has said EXACTLY that; (3) By telling us we are wrong to be upset over the acts and/or omissions of OP, you are in fact blaming us; and (4 - yes, I made a typo; your message, which is much shorter in length, has typing, grammatical and other errors, so learn not to be a smartass) there is no issue with my bank (they delivered payment as I directed, they accepted the forced refund when it was delivered). Finally, yes, OP has an e-mail issue on top of their communication issue (and my bank has nothing to do with their ability, or inability, to email).

There is no need to righteously defend what is going on. I am "invested" as much as you are in the project. When a company tells you how to do things and you do them HOW THEY TELL YOU, when there are screw-ups (and there have been several) and a total lack of substantive communication, they buyer has a right to call a spade a spade (or whatever cliche you want to use).

By the way, I did not receive a prospectus. I did not by shares. I did not invest in anything. I pre-ordered a product (which I have done on numerous occasions, foreign and domestic, big and small, including cutting edge technology items). No other company has ever handled things this way; no other company has requested I accept a "CD" so they can defraud a bank; etc.

If you are happy with things, fine. That is your opinion. But your contentment has nothing to do with whether others are right or wrong in demanding accountability. Particular when those people have done exactly what they were told to do.


You're missing the point that this is a community project...

Anyway, why not simply close this pointless thread?

 

[Daryoon]

Chip's suggestion is, in a more politically correct way, saying "If you don't want to do a bank transfer, F-OFF, we don't need to make you one."

No, my suggestion is that if it is impossible to take CC orders, we should stop trying to find increasingly sketchy solutions and face the fact that it is impossible to take CC orders at this time. If you think about it for half a minute, it is obvious that the more Pandoras we can sell, the better. If there were any way to take CC orders now, we would. We've already tried several options, and all of them have fallen through.

You're too nervous to use a bank transfer? Then don't. We're not trying to force anybody to use transfers, it's just that transfers are the only way we can accept payment at this time. If that's a problem, then wait and order a Pandora when they're in stock. We'd love to make one for you now, but if you are not able to use a payment method that we are able to accept, then you'll have to wait a bit. It's that simple.

Answer this simple question: Prior to taking pre-orders did OP take the common sense business step of speaking with their commercial banking officer to see if their plan to take CC's on this project was acceptable?

If yes, and then Bank changed course after the order, then it is the Bank's fault.

If no, then it is OP's fault.

If the latter, then we ordered based on your directions and based on what you said was an acceptable payment form. As a result, please feel free to refund the balance of what I paid and I will be happy to wait.

Again, this is not a question of what you CAN do now. It's a question of what you said you COULD do then. We ordered based on your instructions. If there is a loss due to YOUR error, then, as a company, you should do the correct thing.

[/quote]
You're missing the point that this is a community project...
Anyway, why not simply close this pointless thread?
[/quote]

I like that you can completely ignore the FACTS with the old "community project" response.

I hate to tell you this, but the place that took my pre-order was a BUSINESS. It was not a community member that I forwarded some cash to via paypal or otherwise.

They advertise themselves as a business; they have since the GP32 days.

They solicited pre-orders. They are providing interviews to websites, etc.

This "project" has not been confined to any specific community. It was opened to the public.

Just as I need to "learn to number", you need to "learn to logic."

Like I said, if you are content, fine. But the fact that you are has no bearing on this situation.

- EDIT: I obviously need to learn to cut and paste the quoted sections better! :lol: