The Pandora can not run Windows (or WINE)

[PhonicUK]

Overall Answer: If you want to run Windows, or Windows based Programs/Games - don't buy a Pandora, get a netbook or notebook PC instead.

Can Windows be installed natively on the Pandora?

Short Answer: No, and never will.

Long Answer:
All versions of Windows only run on systems based on the x86 architecture of CPUs (Such as the Intel Core2's, AMD Athlon x2's, and other similar processors found in PCs)
The OpenPandora is based on a type of processor called the ARM (Specifically a Cortex/ OMAP3). There are many variants of ARM processors, some of which are used in other devices like the Nintendo DS and iPod Touch.

Since Windows has only been designed to run on x86 processors, it will not run on ARM based systems. Even if Microsoft where to modify Windows to run on ARM chips it still wouldn’t let you run your existing Windows applications because they are also designed for x86 systems.

It’s not a case of “The Pandora can’t run Windows” – but more that “Windows can’t run on the Pandora”

Will my Windows games/applications run on the Pandora?

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer:
For the majority of Windows applications – No, as they will only run on Windows and are designed only for use with x86 based systems.

However, if an application is ‘open-source’ – meaning that anyone is free to modify it and make changes to it – then possibly. It would require somebody to make the modifications needed for it to run on a Linux based system. If there is already an open-source Linux version of a Windows program, then it is very likely to work on the Pandora.

An application that is not open-source (Which includes almost all commercial applications and games) cannot be modified to run on the Pandora except by the original author(s) of that program.

Can you use WINE?
Wine Is Not an Emulator (It’s in the name) meaning it does not emulate the x86 instructions needed for a Windows program to run – ergo WINE will only run on x86 based systems and not on the Pandora (An ARM device)

Can you emulate an x86 system?
Yes, but not fast enough to do anything except run old DOS games. (See DOSBox)

If you have any further queries about Windows or Windows programs/games, please keep them to this thread.

 

[(naw)mcx]

Sorry, just want to add that Exofase(uh, you know the guy, awesome coder, etc) said we might have a chance via QEMU and WINE.

So never say never.

 

[dflemstr]

said we might have a chance via QEMU and WINE.

So never say never.

100 MHz max... This won't give you World of Warcraft, but rather something maybe the step over DosBox. Please sticky this and remove the last two comments (or at least my comment) so as to avoid ALL possible confusion for new users.

 

[PhonicUK]

said we might have a chance via QEMU and WINE.

So never say never.

For WINE I didn't say never - only for Windows itself. Currently QEmu doesn't list ARM hosts as working platform. If this changes I will perhaps update this, but until then it's not a viable option.

The achievable speeds also means it's not a viable option for games which is what most people are interested in anyway.

Also, this is meant for 'the average Jo' so getting into complications with running WINE with a dynamic recompiler partly defeats the purpose of this thread.

 

[ashdjones]

I know this is highly pedantic but i'm fairly certain Windows 3.1 is possible via Dosbox. It's not what people are after, granted, but it's still Windows.

 

[JayFoxRox]

This is by far too polite. You should call the topic: WINDOWS APPLICATIONS WON'T WORK ON PANDORA..
and then in the topic: .. - atleast not these you would want!
then list things like qemu etc which might make it possible to some degree

 

[PhonicUK]

I know this is highly pedantic but i'm fairly certain Windows 3.1 is possible via Dosbox. It's not what people are after, granted, but it's still Windows.

Pedantic is the opposite of the purpose of this thread. Windows 3.1 is not useful in any way for what people want to do.

The idea is that this is a reasonably good summary of the state of play, not a nitpick into all the little details of what is and isn't possible.

Yes Win 1.x-3.x might run, yes 95 may even run slowly, yes QEmu+Wine may let you run a small Windows program or two...

But none of these are *practical*, none of these actually give the result that Joe Bloggs would be expecting if you tell him its possible.

Bottom line is, Windows and Windows apps don't and won't run - all the other if's and maybe's are for the technically inclined of us and not the target of this thread.

I made it simple and polite so as not to alienate new users.

 

[ashdjones]

I completely see what you're trying to do, and I agree, but some irritating part of my brain is a slave to logic (I apologise for that). The truth is that Windows will work, even if it's only Windows 1.0 or 2.0.

I guess the real answer to the question 'Can I run Windows on my Pandora?' or 'Will it run Windows apps?' is 'No modern Windows will work' or 'No, there are many methods but none of them make it fast enough to run in any usable way and certainly never will'.

 

[Pleng]

. The truth is that Windows will work, even if it's only Windows 1.0 or 2.0.

I guess the real answer to the question 'Can I run Windows on my Pandora?' or 'Will it run Windows apps?' is 'No modern Windows will work' or 'No, there are many methods but none of them make it fast enough to run in any usable way and certainly never will'.

Wow I'm gonna run Windows 2.08 on my Pandora. Oh happy memories

 

[Rockthesmurf]

So just to double check, are you saying that Windows or Windows applications/games will or will not run on the Pandora? There seems to be a lot of ambiguity in this thread. Perhaps another thread should be started making it clear if it is possible or not.

Steve

 

[(naw)mcx]

So just to double check, are you saying that Windows or Windows applications/games will or will not run on the Pandora? There seems to be a lot of ambiguity in this thread. Perhaps another thread should be started making it clear if it is possible or not.

Steve

They will.

Just not nativly, and with a largish preformance hit.

 

[ashdjones]

Okay, just to clarify:

Windows applications may be possible using a combination of Qemu (a cpu emulator, to emulate an x86) and Wine (a windows API compatability layer) but the results will almost definitely be slow program peformance and probably glitchiness. The level of usability or usefulness will be low.

Using Qemu (the cpu emulator), Bochs (an x86 system emulator, in effect an emulating an entire PC) or Dosbox (A Microsoft Dos emulator) it is possible to run an entire PC based operating system. However the usable speed and stability of the system will be EXTREMELY LOW to the point of being totally unusable. Much older versions of Windows from the early 90's and 80's will run, but these are fairly unlike modern incarnations of the operating system and the software available for them will be in almost all cases decades out of date - also the speed of the system will be low (somebody mentioned 100mhz) so the type of modern and demanding applications that people use every day won't run even if they existed.

Having said that, a Windows 3.1 system technically runs Windows applications that are forward compatible with later incarnations such as Windows XP (that is, they run on a modern PC running XP). A system of the early 90's era will run old versions of Microsoft Office, Photoshop etc. but they lack of the lot of the features you'll find now. In my personal opinion, if you take Microsoft Office as an example, there haven't been any useful new additions to the applications since these 'ancient' versions.

However, while Dosbox has been ported to the Pandora I cannot confirm that Windows 3.1 or earlier version work at all. All I can say is that the PC based version of Dosbox handles it without a problem on about the same specifications that the Pandora has. In addition, earlier handhelds based on the ARM architecture (which Pandora uses) have had their own Dos emulators and run older versions of Windows on much lower specifications.

 

[ashdjones]

So just to double check, are you saying that Windows or Windows applications/games will or will not run on the Pandora? There seems to be a lot of ambiguity in this thread. Perhaps another thread should be started making it clear if it is possible or not.

Steve

They will.

Just not nativly, and with a largish preformance hit.

Damn, your reply is much better!

 

[christo930]

. The truth is that Windows will work, even if it's only Windows 1.0 or 2.0.

I guess the real answer to the question 'Can I run Windows on my Pandora?' or 'Will it run Windows apps?' is 'No modern Windows will work' or 'No, there are many methods but none of them make it fast enough to run in any usable way and certainly never will'.

Can you imagine the "bad will" that would be created if people bought a Pandora with the expectation that they could use it to play windows games? Furthermore, while windows 3.1 may be possible, there probably aren't any drivers to use more than 16 colors or sound. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a vesa driver that can use vesa to achieve more than 4 bit color.

I would imagine the Pandora should be able to achieve good 286 level performance under Dosbox. The reason I say 286 is because many dos games require a high level of compatibility. For example, I have some dos games that work fine on my E-mac 700mhz that require a 386, but then Keen 4 which only requires a 286 (and ran fine on my 8mhz 286) doesn't run very well at all and isn't really playable. Keen 4 really pushed the hardware and was a masterpiece in programming. Games that were programmed less tightly (for lack of a better term) seem to work better. But overall, in order to not have unhappy customers, I would say to expect 286 level performance. It was mentioned in this thread that 100mhz performance is a reasonable expectation:Certainly not under dosbox. If 100mhz P-1 performance is possible under WINE and a x86 emu (the whole architecture, not just cpu), it would open up a very large collection of early Windows games, but I sincerely doubt that 100mhz P1 performance is achievable especially the video and lack of FPU. Nobody want to feel like they were misled or cheated.

In any event, if your goal is to play windows games, you WILL be better served by a netbook or even a full sized note book. Even though it is open source and all that jazz, it should still be thought of as a game console. You wouldn't expect a PSP or a NDS to play windows games and you shouldn't expect if from the Pandora.

Chris

 

[Polossatik]

suggestion for changes to the first post:


Shortest answer: If you want to run windows games/applications don't buy the Pandora. Buy a Netbook (asus eeepc or so) or portable.

Q: Can I install windows on the Pandora?

Short answer: no.

Long Answer:

All versions of Windows only run on systems based on the x86 architecture of CPUs (Such as the Intel Core2's, AMD Athlon x2's, and other similar processors found in PCs).

The OpenPandora is based on a type of processor called the ARM (Specifically a Cortex/ OMAP3). There are many variants of ARM processors, some of which are used in other devices like the Nintendo DS and iPod Touch.

Since Windows has only been designed to run on x86 processors, it will not run on ARM based systems. Even if Microsoft where to modify Windows to run on ARM chips it still wouldn’t let you run your existing Windows applications because they are also designed for x86 systems. you would need for example a Microsoft Office version specially made for (the imaginary) "windows for ARM".

It’s not a case of “The Pandora can’t run Windows” – but more that “Windows can’t run on the Pandora”


Q: Will my Windows games/applications run on the Pandora?

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: For the majority of Windows applications – No, as they will only run on Windows and are designed only for use with x86 based systems.

However, if an application is ‘open-source’ – meaning that anyone is free to modify it and make changes to it –
then it might be possibly - but might be a lot of work. It would require somebody to make the modifications needed for it to run on a Linux based system.

If there is already an open-source Linux version of a Windows program, then it is very likely someone can adapt this program very easely to work on the Pandora.

An application that is not open-source (Which includes almost all commercial applications and games) cannot be modified to run on the Pandora by anyone else then the person/company who has written that program.


Q: Can you use WINE?

Wine Is Not an Emulator (It’s in the name) meaning it does not emulate the x86 processor needed for Windows program to run – ergo WINE will only run on x86 based systems and not on the Pandora (An ARM device)

Q: Can you emulate an x86 system on the Pandora ?

Yes, but not fast enough to do anything usefull except run old DOS games. While you might be possible to start old windows versions like windows 3.1 or windows 95, they will run however very slow, to slow for most windows games/application to be usefull, you might be able to play solitary - but even this is not sure yet.

 

[joa]

cannot be modified to run on the Pandora.

I can see the value of this thread as all the question thread are very annoying.

I would change the wording of this part. You're not modifying or changing the application. Instead, Recompiling might be a better term to use.

but, good thread!

 

[PhonicUK]

However, if an application is ‘open-source’ – meaning that anyone is free to modify it and make changes to it – then possibly. It would require somebody to make the modifications needed for it to run on a Linux
based system. If there is already an open-source Linux version of a Windows program, then it is very likely to work on the Pandora.

An application that is not open-source (Which includes almost all commercial applications and games"] cannot be modified to run on the Pandora.[/quote]I can see the value of this thread as all the question thread are very annoying.

I would change the wording of this part. You're not modifying or changing the application. Instead, Recompiling might be a better term to use.

but, good thread!


'Jo Bloggs' wouldn't know what Recompiling is, making new readers learn what it is would only alienate them.

No jargon, no long detailed explanations into what words mean.

And besides, very rarely is it as simple as a recompilation. Some changes will likely have to be made to many programs due to screen size, memory usage, etc... So for this purpose 'Modify' seems a far more appropriate word to use.

Bottom line is, if a 35 year old accountant who never used computers except for work can't understand it or its not tested and known to be working right now, it's not going in.

 

[Pietro]

Hi, I've just published a translated (italian) version of this question/answers on progettopandora.it, you can see it here
http://www.progettopandora.it/pagina/pando...-possibile.html

I've put your nickname at the bottom

I think you apreciate that...

 

[Chip]

Made thread title a bit more definite and to-the-point. Before anybody brings up the possibility of Windows CE or Windows Mobile or any other version, let me point out that the title is phrased in the present tense, and presently it is accurate. If an existing or future version of Windows ends up on the platform, then the title can be changed again. Until then, it's an unqualified "No".

 

[Squidge]

To be honest, I'd say its now less to the point. It's advertised as running Linux, so sure, it does not run Windows. However, are we now going to get people posting without actually reading this thread saying "I know it doesn't run Windows, but can it?".

Much preferred the previous topic title. Anyone else in favour of changing it back?