The Mighty Oldschool Ti83

[sindbad]

Or you throw the books out of the window and you use internet. learncpp.com
That book http://greenteapress.com/thinkpython/ is a free download, so technically it's "using the internet".

 

[Mithrildor]

Oh btw, sindbad, thanks for the link , I didnt know there was a free online pdf version avaible, so I downloaded the C++ version, ty.

 

[lulzfish]

Thanks for the suggestions, i'll look them both up ,Python & C++
I know both sides could argue until the cows come home, as both must have their good and bad points.

I'll probably just go with the easiest and most logical though, as everything does seem really intimidating from a non-coders point of view.

After a few semesters of C++, I've actually found Python to be very confusing.
Especially the part where typos cause variables to be pulled out of the interpreter's ass.
I prefer defining my variables ahead of time and relying on the compiler to spellcheck my work.

I'm thinking Scala might be good...

Anyway, my point is that C++ is more logical, but Python is probably easier. You don't need as much effort to get started, and debugging is just a matter of interpreting the program, not compiling and running it, so it's a bit faster to fix stuff and make quick changes.
Good for learning I guess, but I can't see using it practically.

 

[sindbad]

Good for learning I guess, but I can't see using it practically.
Just to dispel any bias that python is good for learning, but bad for general use: there's a lot of software written in python that works just fine.

The thing with typos, it only happens on assignments. And you can use stuff like pylint to spell check those.

It's more logical if you find it logical. After fighting against the type system for years in C, C++ and C#, I find being able to bind objects to names, those objects being functions, numbers, strings or remote objects or whatever much more logical.

 

[optional106]

TI83, now that bring back some good memories. I spent more time programming in math class than I did doing exercises. The most advanced thing I wrote was minesweeper, in graphical mode. I also made a simple platformer in textmode (graphical mode was too slow for stuff like that).

Also, before any test that involved a calculator, we'd use the cable to share cheatsheets.

Yeah, good old time, unfortunately there weren't many graphical calculators back then in my classes so no sharing done on my side.
Yeah saving notes in memory was useful, hahaha i'm sure most ppl would have made use of this useful function.
Most of my games i think were reaction time games, although we did have some snake games too.
Its funny to think that such simple games brought so much enjoyment.
There were even small user groups for advice writing code, although it used to be a hassle as dial up internet was calculated per minute online and blocked the phone line ^^

Thanks for all the information about Python, i've been reading lots online and it looks quite fun, so i'll give it a shot.

 

[Mithrildor]

Good luck , optional106.

Btw, I should stop learning C++ and being on the boards for some time and go outside, its 22 Degrees Celcius outside ( thats quite hot for the time of the year in the Netherlands)

 

[Mr devil45]

Because C++ is so low-level, it makes it easier to program games that run at decent speeds and are perfect for the underlying hardware. python is quicker tho...
im currently programming a very basic fps, and it will probablytake a long,long time in C++.but one day, i will have a game mch worse than anything i can buy in a shop,and i will say:WHY???????

 

[Mithrildor]

Because C++ is so low-level, it makes it easier to program games that run at decent speeds and are perfect for the underlying hardware. python is quicker tho...
im currently programming a very basic fps, and it will probablytake a long,long time in C++.but one day, i will have a game mch worse than anything i can buy in a shop,and i will say:WHY???????

Its not so low-level, I think mid-level is a better term for C++

 

[God Ginrai]

I don't understand why people keep talking about C++ when this guy is trying to learn to program. C++ is a great language, but if you want to learn it, you should go ahead and learn C and all its quirks before trying C++.

Second, on the topic of Python. I haven't tried to learn it yet, (I busy myself with other languages atm)but some of my friends have. When I look at Python's code, it looks like it's trying almost too hard to be high level.

If I were to suggest something for you to learn programming. I would suggest either PHP or Java. PHP is really easy and will teach you many of the basics you need to know as far as thinking about the logic used, not to mention, it isn't fully object-oriented like Java. Java will help you to learn some of the more strict rules that you find in other languages that are absent in PHP. It's a good language, even if it can be a little irritating at times. I would suggest learning PHP, then Java, but it's your choice about what you do and don't learn, anyways.

-God Ginrai

 

[dflemstr]

*cough* shameless Scala plug *cough*

Scala = Java + not having to be object oriented all the time (much like Python but on the high-levelness of Java).

Just a general tip, check it out!

 

[sindbad]

Second, on the topic of Python. I haven't tried to learn it yet, (I busy myself with other languages atm)but some of my friends have. When I look at Python's code, it looks like it's trying almost too hard to be high level.

If I were to suggest something for you to learn programming. I would suggest either PHP or Java. PHP is really easy and will teach you many of the basics you need to know as far as thinking about the logic used, not to mention, it isn't fully object-oriented like Java. Java will help you to learn some of the more strict rules that you find in other languages that are absent in PHP. It's a good language, even if it can be a little irritating at times. I would suggest learning PHP, then Java, but it's your choice about what you do and don't learn, anyways.
PHP is a horrible little inconsistent language. It has evolved organically without control and has borrowed most of Perl's bad parts. It's useful to know, but not a way to learn programming. It is in no way more or less high level than Python, that's just your impression.

Java is very restrictive. It has arcane rules and forces OOP on people. It is really not good for teaching people how to program.

To be good for learning, a language must allow procedural programming and an easy path towards more abstract concepts like OOP and functional programming. Python, Ruby and to some extent JavaScript provide this.

 

[fahrstuhl]

Somehow off-topic: What about D? Anyone with some experience around?

 

[sindbad]

Somehow off-topic: What about D? Anyone with some experience around?
Very interesting language, I've used it a bit. Although it is low level and you still have loads of rope to hang yourself with, you can still write safe code rather easily.

It also has a very good subset of useful language features from C++, Java and a handful of others. C speed, Java's type system, optional garbage collection, stuff like .dup and ~. Also very concise and readable. D code tends to be shorter than C++ or Java and almost as short as Ruby or Python sometimes.

Very nice language overall, it's main problem is that it's new. Compilers aren't that good or portable, it already has a legacy stdlib and documentation is scarce. All in the process of being fixed by stuff like LDC and tangobos.

 

[dflemstr]

Somehow off-topic: What about D? Anyone with some experience around?

It has some interesting points that makes it better for systems programming, but if you try to make something functional (aka with the functional programming style) or multi-threaded, it leaves a lot to be wished for. And I don't know how it is with libraries; but I haven't seen many D headers around (am I wrong on this point?)

Very interesting language, though.

 

[fahrstuhl]

Somehow off-topic: What about D? Anyone with some experience around?
Very interesting language, I've used it a bit. Although it is low level and you still have loads of rope to hang yourself with, you can still write safe code rather easily.

It also has a very good subset of useful language features from C++, Java and a handful of others. C speed, Java's type system, optional garbage collection, stuff like .dup and ~. Also very concise and readable. D code tends to be shorter than C++ or Java and almost as short as Ruby or Python sometimes.

Very nice language overall, it's main problem is that it's new. Compilers aren't that good or portable, it already has a legacy stdlib and documentation is scarce. All in the process of being fixed by stuff like LDC and tangobos.

That post makes D sound like the uber-language... Thanks for the quick answer. Do you know any place to get started with D? ^^

 

[sindbad]

That post makes D sound like the uber-language... Thanks for the quick answer. Do you know any place to get started with D? ^^
Meh, just a good language. Put it on the list with Python, Ruby, Scala and half of JavaScript. Probably the only good system programming language. Very good for huge games and other stuff that can't get the performance otherwise.

dsource.org and the digitalmars website will help.

 

[dflemstr]

Probably the only good system programming language.

Haskell is pretty good too (and certainly more popular than D), although I don't think that you should do down-to-the-metal stuff with it.

 

[God Ginrai]

PHP is a horrible little inconsistent language. It has evolved organically without control and has borrowed most of Perl's bad parts. It's useful to know, but not a way to learn programming.

I said that PHP would be good for learning the basic logic of languages. I never said that he should only learn PHP, merely start with it.

It is in no way more or less high level than Python, that's just your impression.

Did you even READ my post? I never even compared PHP to Python. I even put whitespace between the two topics to show that they were not related to each other.

Java is very restrictive. It has arcane rules and forces OOP on people. It is really not good for teaching people how to program.

The fact that it forces OOP on you is one of the things that is irritating, but still, it's strict nature teaches you not to make as many mistakes, from my experience.

To be good for learning, a language must allow procedural programming and an easy path towards more abstract concepts like OOP and functional programming. Python, Ruby and to some extent JavaScript provide this.

No language is good for learning. You get better at programming by learning techniques. Even just doing a lot of code in mIRC scripting will help this guy. You don't need any special language that has a little bit of everything, you just need something simple enough that you can learn the melody of logic.

-God Ginrai

 

[dflemstr]

A language having many features doesn't mean that it can't be used for learning, and it's mostly easier to learn a language with many features. I therefore agree that PHP would be a good choice, but Python and Scala would be my preferred languages, since they have (good) interpreters. Example:

Scala lesson 1: simple math
Scala can be used to solve simple math problems.
(0. Install Scala from here)
1. Start the scala interpreter: At a console, type "scala"
2. In the prompt that appears, type "2 + 1.5". The console shows you 3.5. Very many different math operations can be performed like this. The most common operators are "+ - * /"

Scala lesson 2: functions
It's very verbose to have to type the same code over and over again. Functions can aid you with this.
1. At the scala interpreter, type "def f(x: Float)=3 * x * x + 2 * x + 1". The ":Float" tells scala that you want "x" to be a rational number (a "floating point" number, where the point isn't fixed), and not an Integer (Int).
2. Then, type "f(3)". The console shows you 34. Scala knows what f() means and can use it to perform an operation. Many different operations can be defined like this.

Scala lesson 3: use external tools
The scala programming language comes with many different libraries that can help you when solving your prolems.
1. At the scala interpreter, type "import scala.Math._".
2. Type "2 + 3 * sqrt(2 + 2)". The console shows you 8. The "sqrt" function was made available to you.

Etc etc. Full tutorial available here (not by me, although the above is ): www.artima.com/scalazine/articles/steps.html
A language that has many features mostly isn't as rectricting as say Java, which is pretty difficult to learn (Look at most Java tutorials, it starts with pages and pages of "What is an Object", "Has-a and Is-a", "The inheritance relationship", "Types of data" etc). In Java you have to explain what "public class Main" and "public static void main(...)" means. It's just not the same.

 

[optional106]

Thanks for the suggestions, I spent the weekend at the library reading up on Phython, and although it seemed fairly straightforward, I have the feeling that i'm going to have to just pick one programming language and stick with it.

I am good with real spoken languages, but as mentioned before have limited coding knowledge, but would like to start to get a feel for it.
It could be that I'll really hate coding, but I'll stick with it for a while.
Hopefully i'll be as passionate in code as some of the posters in this thread.

Rather than debating the merits and defending languages, can you agree on the language that you had wished you had learnt first ?

Do you guys ( or girls) stick with one preferred style?
or do you pick up languages as necessary depending on requirements to get the job done?
and would it be a hinderance to not know any particular programming language?

And most importantly as beginner am i going to get confused if i start learning more than 1 language at one?