Some Pandora/Pyra questions.

[alanjf]

Hello, I'm rather new around these parts. So far what I've seen of the Pandora and upcoming Pyra seem so damn cool and I really am loving what I'm seeing. I do have a couple questions that have been on my mind that I haven't been able to find an answer to via the forum search.

I have seen several threads where it has been mentioned that Pandora runs BusyBox. I've only used a system with BusyBox on routers running OpenWRT and it felt like a very stripped down set of shell/Coreutils/etc utils. Will this also be true of the Pyra? Or will it use a more desktop-like base environment and toolchain (linux-kernel, glibc, binutils, coreutils, util-linux, procps, etc?

Can I assume that one can compile things like Bash, Coreutils, etc from source (like offical tarballs) with a local GCC (especially important since we're dealing with ARM cpus) ? Are there also already (PND I think they're called) packages for such things?

Another thing I'm wondering about that I haven't been able to find via the forum search. I have seen some mentions of WINE being used, so do I understand that many Windows programs, which are x86, can be run WINE in an ARM based environment? Thanks.

 

[mcobit]

Well. The Pandora runs a full blown linux system. You don't need to compile the mentioned stuff. It has all that included and a full desktop too.


There also is a good sdk to compile on the Pandora itself called codeblocks.pnd. Get it from repo.openpandora.org. It has a recent gcc and a lot of developement packages.


There is a lot of other software too ready to use.


x86 programs cannot be used with wine as the architecture is arm. But some opensource windows programms can be compiled against the arm version of wine to get native arm code.


There are experiments with using qemu with wine though. Don't expect anything more than win 3.11 or some win95 programs to run at useable speed though.

 

[WizardStan]

I have seen several threads where it has been mentioned that Pandora runs BusyBox. I've only used a system with BusyBox on routers running OpenWRT and it felt like a very stripped down set of shell/Coreutils/etc utils.

BusyBox is as small or as full as needed. Running it on a router it's probably even more stripped down, but running on the Pandora it's quite complete. The Pandora runs Angstrom by default which is meant to be small, including busybox for much of its utilities. That being said, I've never felt that anything was missing.You don't have to run Angstrom though, there's several other flavours ported to it which I think run more complete, less embedded intended systems.

The Pyra, however, will be running Debian by default (again, people will probably port other stuff if you so desire) so even that shouldn't be a question.

 

[moxie]

The limitations I've noted on the Pandora install of busybox is that the commands lack some of the more obscure flags.  For the daily BASHing, it works excellently

 

[Kumaki]

Does the Pyra run .pnd programs?

 

[Neelix]

That's the plan...   but currently, no.

- Neelix

 

[TrashyMG]

Well It runs nothing yet as it's still being developed. A PND or PND like system is being talked about. However there will be some technical differences that will prevent executable files compiled for the Pandora from working on the Pyra directly, but I bet a compatibility environment could be developed that would allow Pandora PNDs to work with the Pyra. However most software for the Pandora could easily be ported to the pyra with a quick re-compile.

 

[_jr_]

Well busybox is actually quite crippled: e.g. busybox vi, grep and find being totally useless except for the most simple use cases, no HTTPS support in wget, /bin/sh being suid, and other things like that severely limiting a desktop like shell experience. The reason this hasn't ben noticed by most is that several GNU 'originals' and VIM are already included by default (at least I think I didn't install them myself except a full wget).

 

[Kumaki]

I was curious about that.

What are the planned technical specs of the Pyra?

Just curious

 

[EvilDragon]

http://www.pyra-handheld.com

 

[Caine]

Http://www.pyra-handheld.com

I thought the battery size was being increased. Shouldn't the 4200mAh be updated and/or flagged with a *.

 

[levi]

Well busybox is actually quite crippled: e.g. busybox vi, grep and find being totally useless except for the most simple use cases, no HTTPS support in wget, /bin/sh being suid, and other things like that severely limiting a desktop like shell experience. The reason this hasn't ben noticed by most is that several GNU 'originals' and VIM are already included by default (at least I think I didn't install them myself except a full wget).

Indeed, and vi is softlinked to the compatibility mode of vim, so how exactly do you end up in busybox vi?

 

[_jr_]

The point is, you don't on the Pandora and therefore don't realize how limited busybox actually is.


You end up in busybox vi on the N900 by default (where it totally makes sense).

 

[levi]

Okay, but on the SZ angstrom install I'm running (1.60), /bin/busybox isn't softlinked to anything, and is only hardlinked to itself. So it seems to me that the only way to get there on a Pandora is to invoke it directly.


I've used it on my old N770, and it was a bit of a pain there when I tried to do anything useful. I haven't experienced anything like it on the Pandora.


So it seems to me it's not right to say Pandora runs busybox. Pandora contains the busybox file on it's FS, but nothing uses it, so it's pretty redundant AFAICT. Is it an oversight that it's included? Was it used on previous SZ versions? How did Moxie end up using it?

 

[Kumaki]

http://www.pyra-handheld.com

Thanks.

Sounds interesting.

But...when this thing comes out...am I to understand no more Pandoras will be made?

Also, what about replacement parts, like batteries for the Pandora?  I know they are rechargeable, but even rechargeable batteries eventually refuse to take much of a charge?

I am wondering if I should stock up a couple of batteries for the Pandora I currently have.

Also, like I said, I am wondering if PND's that currently run on Pandora...can run on the Pyra...or if an environment will be able to be downloaded as a default to the Pyra...which will run them...or how this is all going to play out.

I guess I am just worried that - if Pandoras are no longer being produced...and mine breaks...how can I then get it fixed?

Any ideas, also, on a price-point for these new Pyras?  Or any idea on when they might come to be available?

Again, this is all just curiosity stuff at this stage.  But some answers to these questions might be helpful - not just to me, but maybe some other users here.

 

[ekianjo]

But...when this thing comes out...am I to understand no more Pandoras will be made?   Also, what about replacement parts, like batteries for the Pandora?  I know they are rechargeable, but even rechargeable batteries eventually refuse to take much of a charge?

Already addressed before, Pandoras will run out of production probably as early as 2014. 

Parts will still be available for repairs, though. Batteries as well, and ED is trying to make batteries compatible with the Pyra, but that may not be 100% sure yet. 

Any ideas, also, on a price-point for these new Pyras?  Or any idea on when they might come to be available?

 

see the Pricing thread in official Pyra news. 

Availabiliy is TBD. But nobody in their right minds expects them earlier than 2015. We'll see.

Again, this is all just curiosity stuff at this stage.  But some answers to these questions might be helpful - not just to me, but maybe some other users here.

Many things are being discussed and answered, but you just probably did not follow the discussions.  

 

[levi]

But...when this thing comes out...am I to understand no more Pandoras will be made?

Parts are already running out. I'd wager the last Pandora will not only be made, but probably have been sold before the Pyra comes out.

Also, what about replacement parts, like batteries for the Pandora? I know they are rechargeable, but even rechargeable batteries eventually refuse to take much of a charge?


I am wondering if I should stock up a couple of batteries for the Pandora I currently have.

The original plan was to use the same battery, so Pandora users can still get replacements, but that seems to have changed recently, preferring to use a bigger battery to keep that hungry OMAP5 full of juice. I suspect ED will continue to get Pandora batteries made if there's demand though.

Also, like I said, I am wondering if PND's that currently run on Pandora...can run on the Pyra...or if an environment will be able to be downloaded as a default to the Pyra...which will run them...or how this is all going to play out.

I'd hope most important PNDs will get recompiled for the Pyra - that shouldn't be a lot of work, provided the authors have kept the source. But I'd also hope that some sort of dynamic recompilation environment could be made to get PNDs running on the Pyra semi-natively - there's still a long time for the software to get made before the Pyra goes on sale.

I guess I am just worried that - if Pandoras are no longer being produced...and mine breaks...how can I then get it fixed?

With love, care and a little sugru, you should get many years out of your Pandora. The battery's really the only consumable that's likely to burn out in your lifetime, and there's probably a way to bridge the contacts and run it off mains.

Any ideas, also, on a price-point for these new Pyras? Or any idea on when they might come to be available?

See this recent news topic. Your guess is as good as mine with regards to release date at the moment though, but if you keep following the news you should get a more accurate feeling as the news comes in.

 

[_wb_]

Also, like I said, I am wondering if PND's that currently run on Pandora...can run on the Pyra...or if an environment will be able to be downloaded as a default to the Pyra...which will run them...or how this is all going to play out.

I'd hope most important PNDs will get recompiled for the Pyra - that shouldn't be a lot of work, provided the authors have kept the source. But I'd also hope that some sort of dynamic recompilation environment could be made to get PNDs running on the Pyra semi-natively - there's still a long time for the software to get made before the Pyra goes on sale.

I don't think dynarec will be needed, we'll probably just have to include a few softfp copies of the SZ libraries PNDs link to.

 

[Kumaki]

Well, for what it is worth, I REALLY hope that the basic PND's will run on the Pyra...whether natively...or through an alternate Angstrom environment for the device.  Might be nice to have that possible, I dunno.

I am probably going to order a couple of spare batteries.  I have two batteries now that I switch out with each other...the other two will not be used at all, until the first two I'm changing out totally die.

You can also get TV cables for Pandora now, right?

Sorry...but I have not been following the Pandora Board for quite some time...I have a project which has been consuming a lot of my time.

Streak knows about this project, since he was a big part of it...programming the PND I'm using for it - and I am totally hoping that PND could then also run on a Pyra later.

The project I am working on is a database that will, when finished, contain over 36,000 lines in Excel, with four data cells per line.  This is being used for the ICD9/ICD10 changeover in the healthcare industry - in which I work.  I have currently compiled just over 11,600 of the lines I need.  After it's all compiled then I gotta run it thru a sperate Macro, to convert it to a CSV file with all fields quote-wrapped, so the wonderful program Streak wrote for me has a database to pull from.

Anyway, my apologies if the questions I am asking have been answered elsewhere.  I would kindly ask anyone who is so inclined...if my questions HAVE been answered...to please provide links to those answers as my time to browse this Board is currently very very limited.

Thanks.

 

[klapse]

Well, for what it is worth, I REALLY hope that the basic PND's will run on the Pyra...whether natively...or through an alternate Angstrom environment for the device.  Might be nice to have that possible, I dunno.

..

You can also get TV cables for Pandora now, right?

Tv out cables are available. It shouldnt be too much work to recompile your custom PND for the pyra.