SoC: Back and forth!

[Askarus]

Well, I somewhat fall in my own back but I have to post this:

z3740 running Final Fantasy 14: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ukPZimo8s

z3770 will be more powerful 1.8 vs 2.3 GHz (and might run Final Fantasy 14 at an enjoyable speed).

That is amazing.

EDIT:

z3770 doesn't seem to be that bad at all.

Only thing I worry about is that we already are in the ARM line. Don't know if it's a good choice to switch architecture.

In the other hand it's a ways good to take the best choice available (I don't say Intel is the best choice. Only if it would be the best choice).

I wouldn't take it if we hadn't any testing board. Still don't trust Bay Trail.

For me OMAPs strongest point is (I can't say it often enough): We know what we'll get.

Remember the Wii?

Nintendo didn't had any start up problems compared to the others because they simply used an enhanced Gamecube.

But I think OMAP 3 > OMAP 5 is a much bigger improvement than Gamecube > Wii.

EDIT 2:

The entire SoC is rated at an SDP of 2 watts, which indicates a TDP of less than 4 watts

Source:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Atom-Z3770-Tablet-SoC.101424.0.html

Doesn't TDP mean without Turbo boost?

And without Turbo boost it's only 1.4 GHz.

Would be bad result I think.

Intel® Turbo Boost Technology 2.0 automatically allows processor cores to run faster than the Thermal Design Power (TDP) configuration specified frequency if they’re operating below power, current, and temperature specification limits.

I'd rather have a OMAP with 1.9 GHz dual Core I can use as long as I want than an Intel quad core which might not be able to use it's full power for long.

I think that's important at least for gaming.

Source http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/turbo-boost/turbo-boost-technology.html?wapkw=turbo+boost+technology

We need some real test results here I think.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

We're on Page 21 and still "Back and forth".

I wonder why Mr. Exophase hasn't chimed in yet.  "Drastic time needs drastic measures"

 

[Askarus]

One thing I want to mention as I don't trust that "Turbo boost"

http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/9/3856050/intel-candid-explains-misleading-7w-ivy-bridge-marketing

z3770 is 1.4 GHz SDP and 2.4 GHz TDP.

If you don't know what it is please read the link above.

Short:

SDP is what the Processor can give for a long time. (SDP is invented by Intel for marketing)

TDP is it's maximum.

Turbo boost means to clock higher than SDP (uo to TDP).

But Turbo boost doesn't last for long.

It's meant for short tasks that need more power.

Not for gamins some hours.

So in the End z3770 is 1.4 GHz for long term gaming and heavy usage.

It is not 2.4 GHz, only for a short period of time.

Please don't decide for Bay Trail as long as it's not clear how far it can be clocked and is usable for gaming.

EDIT:

As I've read from the official Intel site that Clockspeed is 1.4 GHz and SDP is 2W I suppose 2.4 GHz is TDP which thus consumes a lot more power and is not usable for a long period of time.

I don't want a bad surprise in the end.

 

[SNESFAN]

We need some real test results here I think.

I think this is what it is going to boil down to. White papers that aren't that conclusive. Lots of hypotheticals being thrown around. We can see some some real world performance demos and benchmarks but those are from windows or an unoptimized Linux or android or a mix of those, from what I was saying earlier about hard to compare against the competition, its hard to do an apples to apples comparison also when trying to exclude options as well. Especially when dealing with power and processing envelopes, none that aren't biased anyway. Get a couple Dev boards of different arch, run some benchmarks, measure the before and after levels on the battery and put an in line voltage reading during the tests and post results. ED would surely want to, but we don't need to wait to do this ourselves. Commercial off the shelf Dev boards are available to all of us just the same it is to him.

There's only a handful of people on this board that I would take their word for something and none of those people seem to be saying much on the topic other than their preference.

 

[Askarus]

We need some real test results here I think.

I think this is what it is going to boil down to. White papers that aren't that conclusive. Lots of hypotheticals being thrown around. We can see some some real world performance demos and benchmarks but those are from windows or an unoptimized Linux or android or a mix of those, from what I was saying earlier about hard to compare against the competition, its hard to do an apples to apples comparison also when trying to exclude options as well. Especially when dealing with power and processing envelopes, none that aren't biased anyway. Get a couple Dev boards of different arch, run some benchmarks, measure the before and after levels on the battery and put an in line voltage reading during the tests and post results. ED would surely want to, but we don't need to wait to do this ourselves. Commercial off the shelf Dev boards are available to all of us just the same it is to him.

There's only a handful of people on this board that I would take their word for something and none of those people seem to be saying much on the topic other than their preference.

Did you read/know the SDP and TDP stuff I posted above?

Do you have any experience with it?

You posted a video about game performance.

After all I've read the last hour about SDP and TDP I don't know how long you will be able to play these games.

If they need turbo boost then I'm not sure if you will be able to play longer than half an hour for really heavy games.

It would be great if it was possible but I don't think so.

Any experience is welcome.

The least thing I want is a bad surprise in the end.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Just pick OMAP5.  I hope TI doesn't read all this and change their mind not selling OMAP5 to us then we are really in deep shit

 

[Askarus]

I hope TI doesn't read all this and change their mind not selling OMAP5 to us then we are really in deep shit

 

I also had this thought .

 

[ShleeDragon]

 I bet the qualcomm guy wishes he never bothered talking with us by the end of this drama.

 

[EvilDragon]

I just watched a few gaming videos of the Intel SoC.

Impressive, but not a single game I saw would be playable on a 5 inch screen because the menu and characters would be too small.

So we wouldn't gain anything from that...

And older games would most probably also work with QEmu on a Snapdragon / OMAP5.

 

[Null]

We're on Page 21 and still "Back and forth".

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

^ Nice Pyra logo   Perfect!

 

[SNESFAN]

We need some real test results here I think.

I think this is what it is going to boil down to. White papers that aren't that conclusive. Lots of hypotheticals being thrown around. We can see some some real world performance demos and benchmarks but those are from windows or an unoptimized Linux or android or a mix of those, from what I was saying earlier about hard to compare against the competition, its hard to do an apples to apples comparison also when trying to exclude options as well. Especially when dealing with power and processing envelopes, none that aren't biased anyway. Get a couple Dev boards of different arch, run some benchmarks, measure the before and after levels on the battery and put an in line voltage reading during the tests and post results. ED would surely want to, but we don't need to wait to do this ourselves. Commercial off the shelf Dev boards are available to all of us just the same it is to him.

There's only a handful of people on this board that I would take their word for something and none of those people seem to be saying much on the topic other than their preference.

Did you read/know the SDP and TDP stuff I posted above?

Do you have any experience with it?

You posted a video about game performance.

After all I've read the last hour about SDP and TDP I don't know how long you will be able to play these games.

If they need turbo boost then I'm not sure if you will be able to play longer than half an hour for really heavy games.

It would be great if it was possible but I don't think so.

Any experience is welcome.

The least thing I want is a bad surprise in the end.

I did read what you said, while interesting, it's still just statistics based off white papers, actual test results vs the options under the same conditions is what you need to do a fair comparison and make the best choice IMO.

I've heard people's first hand reports on using those baytrail devices saying battery life isn't that bad with the 4860mah battery in the venue 8 pro, they didn't have benchmarks, but they did say it was "about that long" (10 hour claim) there's lots of variables I'm sure that go into that, and to truely know what's on, what's off, what speed, what temps, you really need both or all options in your hand and a serious test environment, not just comparing statistics from the manufacturer.

that's why I said you were right, not that you were wrong for posting info. Just the info doesn't tell the full story.

@ED- I am shocked at that statement, "characters too small to benefit" are you joking me? Make the decision based off benchmarks or even just preference, fine, because it's yours, but don't discredit it because some games wouldn't look right on a 5" display. That's just mad... 

tell you what is mad, squeezing a full desktop environment on a 5" display... just saying...

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

 I bet the qualcomm guy wishes he never bothered talking with us by the end of this drama.

Well if he can give ED SnapDragon 805, all of the documentations, all open source drivers, EVERYTHING now and not make us wait another 6-8 months   Which I doubt it.

 

[hns]

We need some real test results here I think.

 Commercial off the shelf Dev boards are available to all of us just the same it is to him.

For OMAP5 and Snapdragon it is no problem (5432EVM, DragonBoard) - but I did not find one for the Z3770. Just a hint that it is under development. Anyone with a link?

And please note we need a real evaluation board (witch connectors and schematics), not a device that is lucky to use the same or a similar processor.

So at the moment the Intel processor appears to be too new to be really considered without slowing down the Pyra. It may even have some bugs which is something we want to avoid. Using something that exists a little longer isn't the greatest and latest what you can get, but a little more mature.

And you always can get something better as soon as you have decided for something. Theorem: you have to wait infinitely long to get the ultimately best solution.

 

[Null]

^ Nice Pyra log Perfect!

Perfectly describes the creation process as well, things were just like this when the Pandoras specs were being decided.

 

[ghostpatch]

I think this is what it is going to boil down to. White papers that aren't that conclusive. Lots of hypotheticals being thrown around.

You can't build anything without knowing the specs. Please don't make them look like they are just some abstract numbers.

Please don't decide for Bay Trail as long as it's not clear how far it can be clocked and is usable for gaming.

you posted a nice video yourself -.-

EDIT: As I've read from the official Intel site that Clockspeed is 1.4 GHz and SDP is 2W I suppose 2.4 GHz is TDP which thus consumes a lot more power and is not usable for a long period of time.

clock speed does not equal processing power!

You think ARM SoCs run at over 2GHz all the time? All four cores at the same time? Sry, but throttling is perfectly normal. Heat is a huge issue. Don't forget all modern ARM SoCs also have small cores to improve efficincy and battery life.

Edit:

I just watched a few gaming videos of the Intel SoC. Impressive, but not a single game I saw would be playable on a 5 inch screen because the menu and characters would be too small. So we wouldn't gain anything from that...

just connect to a TV/monitor. Thats what I'd like to do when I'm at home anyway

 

[SNESFAN]

We need some real test results here I think.

 Commercial off the shelf Dev boards are available to all of us just the same it is to him.

For OMAP and Snapdragon it is no problem (5432EVM, DragonBoard) - but I did not find one for the Z3770. Just a hint that it is under development. Anyone with a link?

And please note we need a real evaluation board (witch connectors and schematics), not a device that is lucky to use the same or a similar processor.

is the z3770 the only target? none of the other 3000 family?

honest question here, as I thought they were all baytrail

EDIT: anyway I think you're right, can't seem to find one, only cedar trail is available from intel at the moment

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/intelligent-systems/evaluation-platforms/evaluation-platforms.html

 

[EvilDragon]

@ED- I am shocked at that statement, "characters too small to benefit" are you joking me? Make the decision based off benchmarks or even just preference, fine, because it's yours, but don't discredit it because some games wouldn't look right on a 5" display. That's just mad... 

tell you what is mad, squeezing a full desktop environment on a 5" display... just saying...

The difference is:

You can change the character sizes on a desktop so that it is readable.

You can't do that in most of the PC games.

A LOT of reviewers and gamers would complain about that... is that what you'd like?

 

[CrazyIvan]

I think forum threads should have the ability to assign custom logos to them. I wonder if it's possible with this engine.

The pic is great

I just watched a few gaming videos of the Intel SoC. Impressive, but not a single game I saw would be playable on a 5 inch screen because the menu and characters would be too small. So we wouldn't gain anything from that...

 
You forgot about a dock station or plain video out. There's nothing wrong with the ability to run such games. Reviewers will appreciate that if pyra won't be advertised as handheld only device

 

[SNESFAN]

I thought the terms practical and possible was loosely interchangeable around here is all lol

there's lots about the pandora I don't find practical, it's the possible I find interesting.

EDIT:

but anyway, the shield has the same size you're aiming for and playing streaming PC titles in 720p on a 5" display is just fine, there are only rare occasions you can't see what you're doing.